Invincible Ignorance and Salvation for jpete and all interested

[jpete79]

Sean Boyle:

It is through God’s “grace” that we are saved. How can you know what God’s grace holds for someone else?

I was tring to raise your ire earlier to point out that you were categorizing two entire religions containing God children as being possibly unsaved or not capable of salvation because they didn’t believe in certain God given truths that you believe in.

In the presents of God, God’s Truth will be revealed to us. Not everyone on this earth can be assured that the “truths” that they believed here on earth are the ones that you need to believe in to gain God’s grace.

I am not claiming to know anything that is not emphasized in the word of God.

Yes, I was categorizing two religions because they deny Jesus Christ (the only name that saves). Calling Jesus Christ only a “certain God given truth” is absurd as HE IS THE TRUTH. If you don’t believe in Christ, you cannot believe in truth, without truth we cannot be clothed in the righteousness that His blood provides.

God had a plan for salvation, that was the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. There is NO OTHER NAME THAT CAN SAVE.

This may not be comfortable but if you read what I posted on Romans it is Scriptural. It hurts to know that people will indeed be condemned. I cannot say I know any man’s heart but I can say that Jesus Christ is needed in that heart for eternal life.

 

[javelin]

jpete79:

Then is the key verse…
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

TO ALL WHO BELIEVE. No one is righteous except those who BELIEVE.

I don’t mean to nitpick, but your summary, which I bolded above, does not say exactly what the verse says. The difference is very important. The verse says that the righteousness of God will come through faith to those who believe. Amen! The Church believes that wholeheartedly. The statement is a positive assertion.

Your summary, however, is a negative exclusion – “No one…except”. These are not the same. It is like the difference between these two statements: “If you win the lottery, you will be a millionaire” and “No one can be a millionaire unless they win the lottery.”

God saves us through belief, but that does not mean He saves only through belief.

jpete79:

He continues;

There is no difference between Jew or Muslim or anyone else…no one is righteous except those who believe,

Those were your statements, not Paul’s. What did Paul say?

jpete79:

23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,* through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

He justifies whom? THOSE WHO HAVE FAITH IN JESUS.*
Yes, we understand that faith is part of our initial justification, but again, Paul makes no exclusions – his is a positive assertion. Paul does not say that only those who know Jesus’ name and have faith in Him can be saved.

jpete79:

Now lets continue in Chapter 4, where it is written;
22This is why “it was credited to him (Abraham) as righteousness.” 23The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

We need to believe in Him who raised Jesus from the dead. If we don’t believe that he raised Christ, how are we redeemed from sin?

I’m sorry, but Paul simply does not say “we need to believe” anywhere. He is talking only about those who do believe (which is good, and certainly preferable), not those who don’t.

jpete79:

In Chapter 5 he continues
1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a]have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.

We have been justified through Faith…we read in 3 that faith is in Christ and its been reiterated in 4 that faith must be in God who raised Christ from the dead.

Even much later on we read
9That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”

I repeat – Paul never states these things in a exclusionary manner. He is stating positive, good things.

The truth is that we simply don’t know the fate of those who do not have a professed belief in Jesus Christ. We do

know positively that salvation is only through Christ, but are just not sure that that must mean professed belief in Him the way some speak of it.

Jesus did say that I cannot know the Father unless I know Him, but that does not mean Jesus does not know me, and will not save me when I come before him in judgement.

We simply do not know, so we leaveit to God’s mercy and divine providence.

jpete79:

Paul is in no way advocating that a Gentile god without Christ can get to Heaven. He is no way saying that any Israelite (Jew) who does not believe in Christ can gain salvation. He states it clearly throughout Romans that it is only through Christ Jesus that salvation is given. Through our ACCEPTANCE AND BELIEF OF HIM.

In His Grip,
Jim

Paul certainly never advocates belief in any other way to salvation other than through Jesus, but he also does not specifically deny that those who have never heard the gospel can (not will) be saved by Jesus. This is essentially the Church’s position.

I prefer to think of it in light of this:
"Whatsoever you do to the least of my people, that you do to me." – Jesus

Peace,
javelin

 

[javelin]

jpete79:

This may not be comfortable but if you read what I posted on Romans it is Scriptural. It hurts to know that people will indeed be condemned. I cannot say I know any man’s heart but I can say that Jesus Christ is needed in that heart for eternal life.

I honestly think this particular emphasis of doctrine by protestants in general is a big reason many who are non-christians reject the faith altogether, precisely because it creates a world in which God created millions of people with no chance for redemption. “If God is really so loving, why would He create so many people who had no chance of salvation?!?”

That is a very good question.

What about the person who lived in North America in the first century A.D.? What about all the others who lived in parts of the world the Gospel hadn’t reached before they died? If none had the chance to know Jesus by name and profess belief in Him by name, then what a cruel God indeed created them to populate the fires of hell.

Yet Catholic belief offers them a chance. By God’s Grace, perhaps they knew Him in their hearts. His law, afterall, is written on their hearts, He desired that all people be saved, and Jesus died for the salvation of the world, not just those who “believe”. Perhaps Jesus’ blood washes them every time they serve their neighbor in love. Perhaps Jesus is revealed to them when they die, and those who have received His Grace through love know Him, and He them. The bottom line is that they have a chance.

This certainly doesn’t weaken the need to evangelize in any way, since we who know Christ realize how easily mankind can be diverted from following God’s will. It is much better to lead people to Christ than to simply hope that they find Him, right? So we continue our efforts, all the while realizing that His Will is done, regardless.

Peace,
javelin

 

[jpete79]

javelin:

I don’t mean to nitpick, but your summary, which I bolded above, does not say exactly what the verse says. The difference is very important. The verse says that the righteousness of God will come through faith to those who believe. Amen! The Church believes that wholeheartedly. The statement is a positive assertion.

Your summary, however, is a negative exclusion – “No one…except”. These are not the same. It is like the difference between these two statements: “If you win the lottery, you will be a millionaire” and “No one can be a millionaire unless they win the lottery.”

God saves us through belief, but that does not mean He saves only through belief.

Those were your statements, not Paul’s. What did Paul say?

Yes, we understand that faith is part of our initial justification, but again, Paul makes no exclusions – his is a positive assertion. Paul does not say that only those who know Jesus’ name and have faith in Him can be saved.

I’m sorry, but Paul simply does not say “we need to believe” anywhere. He is talking only about those who do believe (which is good, and certainly preferable), not those who don’t.

I repeat – Paul never states these things in a exclusionary manner. He is stating positive, good things.

The truth is that we simply don’t know the fate of those who do not have a professed belief in Jesus Christ. We do

know positively that salvation is only through Christ, but are just not sure that that must mean professed belief in Him the way some speak of it.

Jesus did say that I cannot know the Father unless I know Him, but that does not mean Jesus does not know me, and will not save me when I come before him in judgement.

We simply do not know, so we leaveit to God’s mercy and divine providence.

Paul certainly never advocates belief in any other way to salvation other than through Jesus, but he also does not specifically deny that those who have never heard the gospel can (not will) be saved by Jesus. This is essentially the Church’s position.

I prefer to think of it in light of this:
"Whatsoever you do to the least of my people, that you do to me." – Jesus

Peace,
javelin

Javelin:

You say I’ve been exlusionary…but Paul himself indeed says that NO ONE IS RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE. I will again use Scripture for my arguments

Well if no one is righteous then all of us are destined for condemnation. But we know God provided a way. I said up there various verses from Romans, what about here in Acts.

Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”—Acts 4:12

What about in the first letter of John
“God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life” 1 John 5:11-12

Also the popular
“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me”

Then:
“No one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ” 1 Corinthians 3:11

Last in Galatians
6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

Which shows only the Gospel of Christ is the Gospel which can save.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

I agree we are save through the blood of Christ… and most importantly God’s Grace.

How did Abraham, Moses, Macabees, David, Elliah, Jonah and even Mary ,who was full of God grace, make it? All these people were practicing Jews.

Moses and Elliah were present at Christ’s transfiguration.

 

[Lillith]

javelin:

What about the person who lived in North America in the first century A.D.? What about all the others who lived in parts of the world the Gospel hadn’t reached before they died? If none had the chance to know Jesus by name and profess belief in Him by name, then what a cruel God indeed created them to populate the fires of hell.

Hello JPete and Javelin…this has been an interesting thread, I have enjoyed it all day today…you should both be commended for civility! Christians indeed!

JPete…what does happen to the people that Javelin mentioned?..and I want to add a few more to the list, and those would be the mentally impaired, who are unable to hear the Gospel, and cannot profess the Lord Jesus as Savior…Babies of Christian parents who suddenly die but haven’t professed the Lord…Are there exceptions to your Belief?

What about folks in communist China whom are not allowed access to Missionares such as yourself.

 

[jpete79]

Sean Boyle:

I agree we are save through the blood of Christ… and most importantly God’s Grace.

How did Abraham, Moses, Macabees, David, Elliah, Jonah and even Mary ,who was full of God grace, make it? All these people were practicing Jews.

Moses and Elliah were present at Christ’s transfiguration.

I can’t say I exactly know this I can say they accepted the ways of the Old Covenant. They were not 100% obedient to the Law but they were faithful to the promises of God. The promises of God constituted salvation through Jesus Christ. This was before Christ fulfilled the Law. With His fulfillment now, His is the name which saved them through God’s promises (and their faith) and the name which saves us now (through the New Covenant).

 

[Della]

jpete79:

Javelin:

You say I’ve been exlusionary…but Paul himself indeed says that NO ONE IS RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE.

And we are not claiming that anyone is righteous in and of themselves. We are only saying that the grace of God can operate in anyone’s life who is open to it.

I will again use Scripture for my arguments

Well if no one is righteous then all of us are destined for condemnation. But we know God provided a way. I said up there various verses from Romans, what about here in Acts.

You haven’t used Scripture here but your own understanding of Paul’s words. Still, God has provided a way–the redemptive act of Jesus on the cross. We all agree on that point.

Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”—Acts 4:12

Right. Where have we said otherwise? All who will be saved will be saved in and through Christ’s redemption.

What about in the first letter of John
“God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life” 1 John 5:11-12

Also the popular
“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me”

Then:
“No one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ” 1 Corinthians 3:11

And we certainly agree with all of these. What you aren’t getting is that what we are saying in no way negates the power of God to save in Christ, but demonstrates how effective it can be even for those not fortunate to have heard of Christ or who have never heard the truth of Christ but who are living their lives according to the graces God gave them with the light of faith that they have. That is the point here. We are in no way saying that salvation is apart from Christ.

Last in Galatians
6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

Which shows only the Gospel of Christ is the Gospel which can save.

No, what this is showing is that people who knew the Gospel were being led astray not that those who have never heard or heard falsely are supposedly condemned–very different circumstances from one another.

 

[jpete79]

Lillith:

Hello JPete and Javelin…this has been an interesting thread, I have enjoyed it all day today…you should both be commended for civility! Christians indeed!

JPete…what does happen to the people that Javelin mentioned?..and I want to add a few more to the list, and those would be the mentally impaired, who are unable to hear the Gospel, and cannot profess the Lord Jesus as Savior…Babies of Christian parents who suddenly die but haven’t professed the Lord…Are there exceptions to your Belief?

What about folks in communist China whom are not allowed access to Missionares such as yourself.

Hola,

I cannot say with certainty about the mentally impaired, babies who die as infants or (this is my own) babies that are aborted. These cases are indeed different as the parties involved don’t have the capacity to believe.

Others have a capacity and blindly follow whatever their hearts tell them. I understand we say that they never heard of Christ and therefore can’t be held responsible. I say that they can be held responsible for our inaction as Christians to preach the word to them. Did imprisonment and flogging stop Paul from evangelizing to the unreached? NO! The emperor couldn’t even have John killed and had to exile him! Peter walked headlong into his martyrdom as many others did.

They took the commandment to go to the ends of the earth seriously. The reason why is because they knew that salvation was through Christ and they (probably like me) would weep over the souls of those who did not hear Christ’s message.

 

[jpete79]

“And we certainly agree with all of these. What you aren’t getting is that what we are saying in no way negates the power of God to save in Christ, but demonstrates how effective it can be even for those not fortunate to have heard of Christ or who have never heard the truth of Christ but who are living their lives according to the graces God gave them with the light of faith that they have. That is the point here. We are in no way saying that salvation is apart from Christ.”

Della:

How can you say they are living with a light of faith if they don’t believe in Christ. I showed with my passages in Romans that righteousness comes with belief in Christ, I’ve showed there is no other means but Christ.

If they have a faith other than this, it is not faith. By saying they are living their lives according to the graces God gave them (without hearing the name of Christ); you are saying that deeds are what will get them to Heaven. I will not get into that discussion on this board however.

“No, what this is showing is that people who knew the Gospel were being led astray not that those who have never heard or heard falsely are supposedly condemned–very different circumstances from one another.”

That may be the circumstance as to what Paul is writing but he is clearly stating that the only Gospel is the one he preaches and its the only one that saves. Read what it says in Romans again…

 

[bookgirl]

What they believe if they reject our God must be a God that is defined by them and can no longer be ours.

jpete,

Thanks ! Anyway, I’m not really getting into the argument about who will or will not be saved (I’m not God, I don’t know), but more just the idea of whether the God that Islam believes in is in fact a DIFFERENT God, verses the same God which a certian group of people are not believing the truth about Him. I still think it’s the same God. I don’t think that God thinks what they’re proclaiming to the world is correct or okay (judgement on the proclomation, not necessarily the person). I don’t know for sure that when they’re praying to the name of Allah that God accepts that as a prayer. Example: Someone believes something very wrong about me. They tell other people this. They actually try to call me by a different name. I don’t respond to the name, I know what they’re saying isn’t true and I’m not accepting it, but it doesn’t change the fact that I exist and I’m me.

You mention that their God can “no longer be” our God. That statement would indeed insinuate that somewhere along the way you think they made up a false God. But the God of Abraham, who they very clearly and correctly point to in scripture (in that part of the scripture, all three accept it), is still the God of Abraham. He’s still God the Father of the Trinity. They’re not believing the right thing, the God they’re putting forth as the God of Islam / Judaism is misrepresented, but does their misrepresentation actually make God the Father, the God of Abraham in the Old Testament, somehow not the same as He was before there was Islam? Is it saying that there were two Gods back then, and one was lying and the other one wasn’t? I’m not saying they believe what we believe, or what they believe is okay, I’m not really even talking about salvation period. I’m just saying that when they talk about the God of Abraham, they’re talking about God the Father. And God the Father is God. What they believe ABOUT the God of Abraham or His revelation cannot change that He still IS the God of Abraham, and that the God of Abraham IS God the Father, and if He’s God the Father of the Trinity then He’s God. We ALL believe that God the Father is God. But since they are rejecting the other persons of God, they are incorrect at a doctrinal level (as far as their faiths go) and are indeed REJECTING God in ALL THREE persons. And on that we totally agree. But that still does not change who God the Father is in and of Himself and His existence outside of what any human actually believes about him.

 

[josephdavid]

We make our salvation through fear and trembling

 

[Lillith]

jpete79:

Hola,
I cannot say with certainty about the mentally impaired, babies who die as infants or (this is my own) babies that are aborted. These cases are indeed different as the parties involved don’t have the capacity to believe.

So there very well could be exceptions. when has been debated on these boards in the past we almost always come to the conclusion that when it comes to the mentally impaired…including babies and the unborn, God’s Grace is great and to be trusted. The question I have is what is the difference between a person who can’t hear the word because of physical restraints (early death or brain impairment) and the person who can’t hear the word due to different physical restraints (location or culture)
jpete:

Others have a capacity and blindly follow whatever their hearts tell them. I understand we say that they never heard of Christ and therefore can’t be held responsible. I say that they can be held responsible for our inaction as Christians to preach the word to them.

I am confused here. Are you saying because Christian Missionaries don’t go to China that the people they are unable to reach will receive eternal damnation? Is that our sin or theirs? I think that you will make an excellent missionary, but I hope that you don’t think that you will be personally responsible for thousands of people’s souls eternally!

 

[jpete79]

Lillith:

So there very well could be exceptions. when has been debated on these boards in the past we almost always come to the conclusion that when it comes to the mentally impaired…including babies and the unborn, God’s Grace is great and to be trusted. The question I have is what is the difference between a person who can’t hear the word because of physical restraints (early death or brain impairment) and the person who can’t hear the word due to different physical restraints (location or culture)

I am confused here. Are you saying because Christian Missionaries don’t go to China that the people they are unable to reach will receive eternal damnation? Is that our sin or theirs? I think that you will make an excellent missionary, but I hope that you don’t think that you will be personally responsible for thousands of people’s souls eternally!

Thanks for the support on the missionary comment, I pray that I just do what God wants me to do, if its reaching 1 or 1,000 or more. I just pray that God’s will is done through me and that I stay humble in the process

The difference in mental restraints as compared to physical restraints is this:

We can speak to a person who is mentally handicapped and they still cannot understand. We can speak to someone who is physically away from us (even though it may be near impossible to get to them) and they can understand. I’m not saying it would be easy but I’m saying it is essential.

I will also say that my heart does feel an accountability in this role. I’m an adventurous 27 year old male, somewhat physically fit, with a heart for God and an ability to adapt in various situations (although this will be a lot harder than anything ever which is why I MUST rely on God’s strength). Now that I’ve done a great dating site advertisement, I think I should say what I wanted to say…

So I do feel a responsibility to be obedient to God’s command and spread His word. I can bring it to other nations and feel that if I don’t, I am responsible because I am negligent. What others do with the Gospel is something different but I feel that I have the ability and therefore cannot ignore my obligation to Christ.

 

[javelin]

Bless you, jpete, and thank you for the Scripture – it is always good!

jpete79:

Javelin:

You say I’ve been exlusionary…but Paul himself indeed says that NO ONE IS RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE.

But that statement does not exclude anyone from salvation. Rather it sets mankind all on the same level – in need of God’s righteousness. Paul says that we are not righeous by our own doing; it is only an act of God (the imparting of Grace through the blood of Jesus) that can make us righteous. This is fully in accord with Catholic doctrine, so Amen!

jpete79:

I will again use Scripture for my arguments

…

Which shows only the Gospel of Christ is the Gospel which can save.

I love the quotes, but these address a slightly different issue than the one we are trying to make. As has been reaffirmed here – we firmly believe that ALL salvation is through Christ, and effected by Christ, with no exceptions. None. Period.

What we are discussing is the means by which Jesus Christ imparts the Grace that saves.

That is a crucial distinction to this discussion.

Your argument is that the means of salvation is only through a profession of faith and belief in the name Jesus.

Ours is that Jesus can save anyone through a means we do not know, even if they do not know Him by name.

Let me try a little different approach. This is my reasoning. Let me know at what point you may not agree:

1. God desires that all people be saved, and enter into paradise with Him.
2. No one can be saved except by the Grace offered us by Jesus through His redemptive suffering, death, and resurrection.
3. God is a perfectly Just God
4. God is a perfectly Loving God
5. If 1-4 are true, then God must offer all people the possibility of receiving the saving Grace offered through and by Jesus Christ. Otherwise one of the above statements would not be true.
6. Since we know for a fact that not all people through all time have heard of Jesus, then hearing of Him must not be a requirement for being saved by Him, as all must have the opportunity to be saved.
7. Thus, there must be other ways that Jesus Saves.

What the Church has tried to do is discern the “other ways that Jesus Saves”. I believe insight can be attained from Luke 12, where Jesus said that those who knew not the Master’s will and disobeyed it were chastised, but not thrown out with the unbelievers. I believe insight can be found in Jesus’ account of the Final Judgement in Matthew, where the sheep didn’t know they were ministering to Jesus, and yet their love made them known to Him, and they were saved.

I truly believe that God IS Love, and so wherever there is Love, there is God. Since God’s law is written on the heart of every person, if that person responds to that law and Loves, they are experiencing God, and loving God. I believe that through that connection with God, they can be saved by Jesus.

Peace,
javelin

 

[Della]

“And we certainly agree with all of these. What you aren’t getting is that what we are saying in no way negates the power of God to save in Christ, but demonstrates how effective it can be even for those not fortunate to have heard of Christ or who have never heard the truth of Christ but who are living their lives according to the graces God gave them with the light of faith that they have. That is the point here. We are in no way saying that salvation is apart from Christ.”

Della:

How can you say they are living with a light of faith if they don’t believe in Christ. I showed with my passages in Romans that righteousness comes with belief in Christ, I’ve showed there is no other means but Christ.

I will also quote Paul where he said that every person is given a measure of faith so they have no excuse before God. If that is so, then it is possible, because of Christ’s redemption that opened the way of salvation, for them to be righteous in the eyes of God. It is in and through Christ that this is possible.

If they have a faith other than this, it is not faith. By saying they are living their lives according to the graces God gave them (without hearing the name of Christ); you are saying that deeds are what will get them to Heaven. I will not get into that discussion on this board however.

No, not by deeds but the acknowledgment that all the good they do and the faith they have is of God–which is what every Christian ought to understand, too.

“No, what this is showing is that people who knew the Gospel were being led astray not that those who have never heard or heard falsely are supposedly condemned–very different circumstances from one another.”

That may be the circumstance as to what Paul is writing but he is clearly stating that the only Gospel is the one he preaches and its the only one that saves. Read what it says in Romans again…

I am aware of the larger context in which Paul was writing, but it doesn’t negate the fact that he was writing in this instance to believers not to those who had never heard of Christ, which is what we are talking about here.

 

[Photini]

Hi, I am SO enjoying this conversation. Lots of great insights and Scriptures, back and forth. Thank you to all.

As a former “Evangelical,” here’s what I remember being taught around the groups I hung with:

1. Yes, God wants everyone to be saved…
2. God, being God, knows ahead of time who will choose His salvation and who will reject it (this is TOTALLY different from predestination/T.U.L.I.P.-- which is a whole’nother story, and something neither I nor my husband ever subscribed to)…
3. To true seekers whom God KNOWS will choose Him, He sends someone (e.g., God sent Peter to Cornelius, a true seeker of God and a morally upright man-- even though he was NOT a Jew; Jesus Himself appeared to Ravi Zacharias, another true seeker of a different faith-- today a renowned apologist)…
4. Many missionary stories float around regarding indigenous people groups with traditions that one day a “white man” would arrive with a “black book,” that would tell them the truth about God (ever hear any of these?)…

All that to say, I was taught God DOES reveal salvation THROUGH Jesus to those who are sincerely seeking the Truth, just like He says in Isaiah (if I remember correctly). As a matter of fact, this is what happened to me.

Yet, this is what has me re-thinking much of these things:

Today, on the way to Mass, as a matter of fact, my 6 yr. old was asking me what would happen to all the people in, say, North Korea, who aren’t permitted to learn about Jesus. I said that we can pray for them-- and we can trust that our God is a loving, merciful God, who is always just, and that some of those people who are trying their best to do what is right, with the knowledge that’s been given them, could be saved through Jesus even if they didn’t realize it. That is the moment I realized I had really become “Catholic”. (This conversation will not go over big with his father when he learns of it, however.)

The Catholic way of looking at God just makes sense to me.

Just thought I’d throw this into the pot. I’d appreciate your collective thoughts on this.

Thanks!

 

[Pax]

jpete,

Your response to my post 14 which you wrote in post #15 is not a refutation of my points. You quoted a great deal of scripture but the context merely reinforces my point and that of others. The requirements Paul cites are for those that hear the word, understand the word, and are able to accept it or reject it. The non-believer that has never even heard the name of Jesus cannot possibly be expected to accept the Christian faith. It is for this very reason that Paul tells us the following in Romans 2:14-16 that:

“When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse **or perhaps excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.” **

There is no getting around this verse…it says what it says within the context of what is the normative means of salvation.