'Invincible ignorance' inquires

[Truth_Seeker17]

Hello all,

I would like to confirm my understanding of the Catholic Church’s view on salvation and to clarify some points. From what I’ve gathered reading bits and pieces of the CCC, there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. However, that does not mean that only Catholics will go to heaven (although that is the surest route to take). Those who believe in, love and follow a monotheistic God - such as Protestants, Jews and Muslims - will probably still receive salvation because they are indirectly and unofficially members of the Church.

Furthermore, those who have never heard the Gospel and thus do not believe - such as native tribes in Africa, infants, mentally disabled people, etc - will still go to heaven because of their invincible ignorance. Finally, those who live ‘good’ lives but not within a monotheistic religion - such as Hindus, Buddhists and Mormons - might also have invincible ignorance and go to heaven in spite, not because, of their faith.

Does this represent what the Church teaches? If not, then where am I wrong? Any helpful links with information on this topic would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, and God bless,

TS 17

 

[thistle]

Hello all,

I would like to confirm my understanding of the Catholic Church’s view on salvation and to clarify some points. From what I’ve gathered reading bits and pieces of the CCC, there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. However, that does not mean that only Catholics will go to heaven (although that is the surest route to take). Those who believe in, love and follow a monotheistic God - such as Protestants, Jews and Muslims - will probably still receive salvation because they are indirectly and unofficially members of the Church.

Furthermore, those who have never heard the Gospel and thus do not believe - such as native tribes in Africa, infants, mentally disabled people, etc - will still go to heaven because of their invincible ignorance. Finally, those who live ‘good’ lives but not within a monotheistic religion - such as Hindus, Buddhists and Mormons - might also have invincible ignorance and go to heaven in spite, not because, of their faith.

Does this represent what the Church teaches? If not, then where am I wrong? Any helpful links with information on this topic would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, and God bless,

TS 17

Muslims, protestants, buddhists etc are NOT invincibly ignorant about Christ and his Church. They all know something about both but many reject both out of hand, many explore further and then reject, while others have the opportunity to explore further but make the choice not to do so. None of these can be captured under invincible ignorance.

 

[Truth_Seeker17]

Muslims, protestants, buddhists etc are NOT invincibly ignorant about Christ and his Church. They all know something about both but many reject both out of hand, many explore further and then reject, while others have the opportunity to explore further but make the choice not to do so. None of these can be captured under invincible ignorance.

Okay, so your view is that anyone (excluding invincible ignorance) who is not Catholic - even Protestants - will not receive salvation because they all have rejected the Church that Christ has established?

 

[glenconnor]

In such cases as this, I remind myself that I’m not fit to judge myself, never mind anyone else. Christ is the sole judge of these things. I firmly believe that Catholicism has the “complete picture” and many more ways to receive Grace, but that it is not the only way to Christ.

 

[Julian0404]

TruthSeeker17: A very profound inquiry, and from your readling list a valid inquiry as well.

God will save, whom God will save. He cannot be bound NOT to save, otherwise He would not be God. Man cannot comprehend God, but for the little glimpses He gives the wisest of us (St. Thomas Aquinas etc) who in turn share that limited knowledge with the rest.

However, God has indeed established a Church for man to worship Him, as He desires, NOT as man desires or imagines. There are many who protest this Church, this faith and God and thereby move by degrees away from the source of what God has given in the Sacraments for the salvation of His souls. At what degree do they enter into damnation and lost forgiveness, is only a question that God Himself can answer. To what degree they lay claim to invincible ignorance, is again a matter of judgement between God and the heart of each soul.

Again, however, it is unwise for any soul to live in ignorance once their conscience has caused them to question the truth of the faith they practice or to cause curiosity about the Church that Jesus established in Matthew 16. For their conscience will be their prosecutor and convict them on the day of their judgement if they rely upon its invincibility for salvation.

 

[Truth_Seeker17]

In such cases as this, I remind myself that I’m not fit to judge myself, never mind anyone else. Christ is the sole judge of these things. I firmly believe that Catholicism has the “complete picture” and many more ways to receive Grace, but that it is not the only way to Christ.

Yes, that’s a very wise statement. I totally agree - God, not man, is the Judge.

I have a question for both you and Julian: When you say that Catholicism ‘is not the only way to Christ’, what exactly is/are the other way(s) to Christ? Are Protestants, who reject Jesus’ Church but still follow Him, on the right path? Are Jews and Muslims, who deny the divinity of Jesus but still follow a monotheistic God, on the right path? Are Buddhists and Hindus, who do not believe in one God but still live good and moral lives, on the right path?

Again, I completely agree with you, Julian, when you say we can’t understand God or His intentions. We shouldn’t question His actions. All I’m asking for, though, is just some general parameters regarding what you think the Bible and the Church says about salvation.

 

[thistle]

Okay, so your view is that anyone (excluding invincible ignorance) who is not Catholic - even Protestants - will not receive salvation because they all have rejected the Church that Christ has established?

Nobody outside the Catholic Church will be saved. Of course that does not mean all Catholics will be saved (only those dying in a state of grace will be saved).

Baptism is necessary for salvation. Anyone who is not an official member of the Church may be saved through Baptism of Blood or Baptism of Desire. Those in that situation would be deemed to be members of the Church.

 

[Julian0404]

Yes, that’s a very wise statement. I totally agree - God, not man, is the Judge.

I have a question for both you and Julian: When you say that Catholicism ‘is not the only way to Christ’, what exactly is/are the other way(s) to Christ? Are Protestants, who reject Jesus’ Church but still follow Him, on the right path? Are Jews and Muslims, who deny the divinity of Jesus but still follow a monotheistic God, on the right path? Are Buddhists and Hindus, who do not believe in one God but still live good and moral lives, on the right path?

Again, I completely agree with you, Julian, when you say we can’t understand God or His intentions. We shouldn’t question His actions.

All I’m asking for, though, is just some general parameters regarding what you think the Bible and the Church says about salvation.
Read in the Gospel of John, Chapter 6, beginning in verse 25 THE DISCOURSE ON THE BREAD OF LIFE. It is quite lengthy ending in verse 59, but it is provides not “general” but rather detailed and specific parameters regarding not what “I think”, but what the Bible actually says about salvation. More specifically, what Jesus Himself says about salvation, and who He will raise on the last days.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Okay, so your view is that anyone (excluding invincible ignorance) who is not Catholic - even Protestants - will not receive salvation because they all have rejected the Church that Christ has established?

my take is that if one knows about the Church and what she teaches and rejects it have put their souls in jeopardy. may not have salvation. but only God can decides.

**
“To be right in everything, we ought always to hold that the white which I see, is black, if the Hierarchical Church so decides it” St ignatious of Loyola**

 

[Truth_Seeker17]

Okay, I’ll be sure to read John 6. Thanks!

And could I please have the definitions of ‘Baptism of Blood’ and ‘Baptism of Desire’?

 

[TheosisM]

Okay, I’ll be sure to read John 6. Thanks!

And could I please have the definitions of ‘Baptism of Blood’ and ‘Baptism of Desire’?

Baptism of Blood

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

Baptism of Desire

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

 

[HappyRevert]

Nobody outside the Catholic Church will be saved. Of course that does not mean all Catholics will be saved (only those dying in a state of grace will be saved).

Baptism is necessary for salvation. Anyone who is not an official member of the Church may be saved through Baptism of Blood or Baptism of Desire. Those in that situation would be deemed to be members of the Church.

Can you explain this to me because the catechism says

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

Which to me says that people who don’t know about the necessity of baptism can also be saved. I’m curious where you got your information.

 

[thistle]

Can you explain this to me because the catechism says

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

Which to me says that people who don’t know about the necessity of baptism can also be saved. I’m curious where you got your information.

That is saying that someone who is really invincibly ignorant about Christ and his Church through no fault of their own but nevertheless lives a life in accordance with the teachings of Christ can saved.
Such invincible ignorance is actually an implicit baptism of desire which would then turn into an explict baptism of desire if the person knew baptism was required.

I doubt very much if many people on this planet are really invincibly ignorant.

 

[frr]

I suggest that instead of reading bits and peaces of the CCC you should read it through. At least on the parts that most concern your question.
Most of us have a legalistic mentality where there is little room for further understanding. If you only think of a God who gave Himself totally 2000 years ago to save men and gives himself to us daily in the Eucharist, you might better understand the word salvation. He loves man to the point of dying. He gave each man a heart full of desires (happiness, truth, love…) and it is our responsibility to look for the answer. A practical answer. Salvation means fullness of life and He is proposing it to you and to everybody right now. Through the Catholic Church it becomes a beautiful daily encounter, if it is lived with humility and purity.
Thanks

Frr

 

[jmcrae]

That is saying that someone who is really invincibly ignorant about Christ and his Church through no fault of their own but nevertheless lives a life in accordance with the teachings of Christ can saved.
Such invincible ignorance is actually an implicit baptism of desire which would then turn into an explict baptism of desire if the person knew baptism was required.

I doubt very much if many people on this planet are really invincibly ignorant.

It’s difficult to say. On the one hand, ignorance that can be cured is not “invincible” - and for most people, the cure is as close as the nearest internet-capable computer or library.

However, the person may not know what to look for, or how to recognize it once they find it, so - who can say?

But someone who is saying to himself, “I have invincible ignorance” hasn’t got it - if you know what you are missing, and how to get it, then you have a duty to fill in the missing pieces and get caught up.

 

[ATL_Granny]

I doubt very much if many people on this planet are really invincibly ignorant.

That’s why God is God and we’re not!

1260… "we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God"

This is an extremely important point which seems to be missed by many who dogmatically proclaim that outside of The Church, none will be saved. We are not God. We don’t know the obstacles in each person’s path to Him and we therefore trust that His Mercy and Grace offers the possibility of salvation to all, by means known only to Him.

 

[MervinBunter]

Nobody outside the Catholic Church will be saved.

This is true only to a point. People are only saved because of the truths that the Catholic Church uniquely espouses. However, inasmuch as those truths are present in Protestant communities, Protestants can be saved. Please refer to the sections of the Catechism below (emphases mine):

817: In fact, “in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church—for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.” The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body—here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism—do not occur without human sin: “Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.”

818: “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

819: “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”

 

[Newbie2]

Nobody outside the Catholic Church will be saved. Of course that does not mean all Catholics will be saved (only those dying in a state of grace will be saved).

Baptism is necessary for salvation. Anyone who is not an official member of the Church may be saved through Baptism of Blood or Baptism of Desire. Those in that situation would be deemed to be members of the Church.

That is saying that someone who is really invincibly ignorant about Christ and his Church through no fault of their own but nevertheless lives a life in accordance with the teachings of Christ can saved.
Such invincible ignorance is actually an implicit baptism of desire which would then turn into an explict baptism of desire if the person knew baptism was required.

I doubt very much if many people on this planet are really invincibly ignorant.

We’ll never know for sure, will we?

I can see it now, in Heaven:

“So, how did you get in?”

“Dude, I just squeaked in under the “invincible ignorance” clause.”

 

[CentralFLJames]

Can you explain this to me because the catechism says

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

Which to me says that people who don’t know about the necessity of baptism can also be saved. I’m curious where you got your information.

The operative phrase here is: can be saved. All things are possible for God but impossible for man. This is just an acknowledgement of that fact and the fact that God “will show mercy to whom He shall show mercy”. It is God’s nature to be Just. But it also God’s nature to be Merciful and we know that God’s Mercy wins out over God’s Justice. If this were not true then Adam and Eve would have been obliterated and the human race along with it at that first transgression. We see this too in permitting Cain to live after he slew Able. God is demonstrating over and over all through biblical history that He has a plan for man’s salvation.

That said - “can be saved” is NOT the same things as “must be saved”.

God forces no one to love Him and He will not suffer anyone to stand in His presence for all eternity who does not want to be with Him or any who are uncomfortable (i.e. shamed & disgraced) to do so.

I also doubt its a probability game and no one unexpectedly finds themselves in heaven at death. If one does not have a sense of heaven on earth (signs of charity, hope and faith) while they are alive I doubt that such a person will gain heaven. Probably no one gains heaven by accident as ignorance is not a sacrament and in and of itself imparts NO sanctifying grace.

James

 

[Mark01]

I once read in an article somewhere on the subject of Invincible Ignorance and Salvation through the Church alone, a very good analogy. One could look at it as comparing two vessels containing water. One vessel larger than the other but both being full of water. Those who are separated from the Church can be considered the smaller of the two vessels but both being full. Those in communion with the Church are the larger vessel. Both vessels full but one containing more of what I consider to be opportunities for receiving Grace from God.

Those Catholics who knowingly walk away from the Catholic Church without fully understanding Her teachings and do so because they disagree with Her teachings are placing themselves in grave danger of eternal damnation. We as Catholics may not agree on a particular teaching of the Church but we must follow and abide by what She teaches and pray that we can receive an understanding to help us reconcile our doubts that we feel in our hearts. We as Catholics don’t have an option to “church shop” nor should we ever want to.

Those who have not had the opportunity to embrace the Church either through fear, misunderstanding, lack of knowledge or the own faith belief, as long as they are living a life worthy of God have a full vessel as well, just less opportunities to receive the Grace of God.

That is why IMHO we as Catholics should never squander what Jesus has given us. Will we? Yes, all we can do is pray and try to live a life that is visibly Catholic to others, reach out with our particular God given gifts and touch those around us in both physical and spiritual need.