Invincible ignorance/material heresy

[AnneElliot]

A Hindu can become Catholic by accepting the faith.

But Lumen Gentium is referring to those Hindus who, because of conscience, remain Hindus, and L.G. says that even those Hindus may be saved.

No, it does not. Lumen Gentium #16 is about the MISSIONARY activity of the Church.

“…Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not **yet **arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a **preparation **for the Gospel. She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator. Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and **procure **the **salvation **of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”, the Church fosters the **missions **with care and attention.”

 

[Ahimsa]

I’m not saying that, Lumen Gentium is… but yes, I agree!

You need to keep reading the rest of that paragraph… they may only be saved by coming to an explicit knowledge of Jesus Christ and entering the Church. The paragraph is about the missionary activity of the Church (and it’s grave importance).

Missionary work is important, but that’s different from saying that those who choose to remain Hindu are definitively damned.

“accepting Christ, after death”? Where does the Church teach such a possibility? There is no contention there… if a man dies a Hindu, he cannot be saved. There is no last ditch second chance after death.

There is, in the Eastern Catholic tradition.

 

[AnneElliot]

Missionary work is important, but that’s different from saying that those who choose to remain Hindu are definitively damned.

If they choose to remain Hindu and thereby reject Christ’s Church, they are definitively damned. There is no salvation outside the Church.

Missionary work is not merely important, it’s imperative. It is a command.

There is, in the Eastern Catholic tradition.

Do you have a source for this? I have not come across this idea as a definitive teaching in my theological studies.

 

[Ahimsa]

No, it does not. Lumen Gentium #16 is about the MISSIONARY activity of the Church.

“…Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not **yet **arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a **preparation **for the Gospel. She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator. Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and **procure **the **salvation **of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”, the Church fosters the **missions **with care and attention.”

In other words, you’re interpreting this passage to mean: “A Hindu can convert to Catholicism, and thus be saved”.

If that is what L.G. is trying to say, then they could have just said “A Catholic may be saved”.

Instead, L.G. says "Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. "

And the next sentences don’t say “And these people must convert; otherwise, they are damned”. Instead, the next sentence speaks about God helping those who truly and honestly search for Him.

 

[chypmonk]

The Orthodox Church (which is not in communion with Rome) and the Eastern Catholics (who are in communion with Rome) hold that prayers for the dead are efficacious; and that the Final Judgement does not occur until after Christ’s return. Until the Final Judgement, one’s final destiny is not set in stone.

The Latin Catholic tradition, though, does teach that one’s final destiny is set immediately after death.

I doubt the Orthodox believe that. Show me an infallible definition of theirs ruling such a thing.

They will probably be talking about Purgatory in different language.

The Orthodox are not a unified theology. They have NO infallible authority to rule on anything. It is only their opinion. Only the Catholic Church has an infallible ruling capability–ie. the Pope.

 

[AnneElliot]

In other words, you’re interpreting this passage to mean: “A Hindu can convert to Catholicism, and thus be saved”.

I’m not interpreting, I’m reading the words.

If that is what L.G. is trying to say, then they could have just said “A Catholic may be saved”.

It is giving a defense for the missionary activity of the Church and it’s grave importance. We must bring the Gospel to others in order to “procure [their] salvation”.

Instead, L.G. says "Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. "

Keep reading…

And the next sentences don’t say “And these people must convert; otherwise, they are damned”. Instead, the next sentence speaks about God helping those who truly and honestly search for Him.

… And what are those “helps NECESSARY for salvation”?
Baptism.
Explicit Faith in Jesus Christ.

Those who truly and honestly search for God are being “*prepared *”(as L.G. says) to receive (and embrace) the Truth.

Lumen Gentium does not exist separated from the rest of the teachings of the Catholic Church, nor does it exist separated from the rest of the text that accompanies the two sentences you want to harp on!

 

[Ahimsa]

Do you have a source for this? I have not come across this idea as a definitive teaching in my theological studies.

John Paul II, Orientale Lumen, 1995, with key parts italicized:

1. The Eastern Churches [that is, the Eastern Catholics] which entered into full communion with Rome wished to be an expression of this concern, according to the degree of maturity of the ecclesial awareness of the time.(57) In entering into catholic communion, they did not at all intend to deny their fidelity to their own tradition, to which they have borne witness down the centuries with heroism and often by shedding their blood. And if sometimes, in their relations with the Orthodox Churches, misunderstandings and open opposition have arisen, we all know that we must ceaselessly implore divine mercy and a new heart capable of reconciliation over and above any wrong suffered or inflicted.

It has been stressed several times that the full union of the Catholic Eastern Churches with the Church of Rome which has already been achieved must not imply a diminished awareness of their own authenticity and originality.(58) Wherever this occurred, the Second Vatican Council has urged them to rediscover their full identity, because they have “the right and the duty to govern themselves according to their own special disciplines. For these are guaranteed by ancient tradition, and seem to be better suited to the customs of their faithful and to the good of their souls.”(59) These Churches carry a tragic wound, for they are still kept from full communion with the Eastern Orthodox Churches despite sharing in the heritage of their fathers. A constant, shared conversion is indispensable for them to advance resolutely and energetically towards mutual understanding. And conversion is also required of the Latin Church, that she may respect and fully appreciate the dignity of Eastern Christians, and accept gratefully the spiritual treasures of which the Eastern Catholic Churches are the bearers, to the benefit of the entire catholic communion;(60) that she may show concretely, far more than in the past, how much she esteems and admires the Christian East and how essential she considers its contribution to the full realization of the Church’s universality.

In this document, JPII argues that the Eastern Catholics should keep their Eastern traditions, traditions that they share with the Orthodox Church. In another part of the document, JPII also says that any apparent discrepancies between the Latin tradition and the Eastern tradition (e.g., the discrepancy in terms of when the Final Judgement happens) should be seen as complementary, rather than in contradiction, to one another.

 

[chypmonk]

In other words, you’re interpreting this passage to mean: “A Hindu can convert to Catholicism, and thus be saved”.

If that is what L.G. is trying to say, then they could have just said “A Catholic may be saved”.

Instead, L.G. says "Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. "

And the next sentences don’t say “And these people must convert; otherwise, they are damned”. Instead, the next sentence speaks about God helping those who truly and honestly search for Him.

Oh please let us be honest. Anne has already explained that you are taking the sentence out of context of LG and even the paragraph, which makes your understanding conflict with previous teachings on the subject.

Isn’t Pope B16 trying to bring Catholics back to a Continuity of tradition and belief – not dis-continuity.

How could the Council be teaching belief in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is not necessary for salvation?
Because you may not realize it but that is in essence what you are saying.

 

[AnneElliot]

In this document, JPII argues that the Eastern Catholics should keep their Eastern traditions, traditions that they share with the Orthodox Church. In another part of the document, JPII also says that any apparent discrepancies between the Latin tradition and the Eastern tradition (e.g., the discrepancy in terms of when the Final Judgement happens) should be seen as complementary, rather than in contradiction, to one another.

I was looking for a source that demonstrates the Eastern belief in a “second chance” to accept Christ after death.

I’m well aware of relations between the East and West. I’m not convinced the Eastern Catholic churches teach that a man can choose Christ after death and so be saved. I’ve not come across that idea.

 

[chypmonk]

John Paul II, Orientale Lumen, 1995, with key parts italicized:

1. The Eastern Churches [that is, the Eastern Catholics] which entered into full communion with Rome wished to be an expression of this concern, according to the degree of maturity of the ecclesial awareness of the time.(57) In entering into catholic communion, they did not at all intend to deny their fidelity to their own tradition, to which they have borne witness down the centuries with heroism and often by shedding their blood. And if sometimes, in their relations with the Orthodox Churches, misunderstandings and open opposition have arisen, we all know that we must ceaselessly implore divine mercy and a new heart capable of reconciliation over and above any wrong suffered or inflicted.

It has been stressed several times that the full union of the Catholic Eastern Churches with the Church of Rome which has already been achieved must not imply a diminished awareness of their own authenticity and originality.(58) Wherever this occurred, the Second Vatican Council has urged them to rediscover their full identity, because they have “the right and the duty to govern themselves according to their own special disciplines. For these are guaranteed by ancient tradition, and seem to be better suited to the customs of their faithful and to the good of their souls.”(59) These Churches carry a tragic wound, for they are still kept from full communion with the Eastern Orthodox Churches despite sharing in the heritage of their fathers. A constant, shared conversion is indispensable for them to advance resolutely and energetically towards mutual understanding. And conversion is also required of the Latin Church, that she may respect and fully appreciate the dignity of Eastern Christians, and accept gratefully the spiritual treasures of which the Eastern Catholic Churches are the bearers, to the benefit of the entire catholic communion;(60) that she may show concretely, far more than in the past, how much she esteems and admires the Christian East and how essential she considers its contribution to the full realization of the Church’s universality.

In this document, JPII argues that the Eastern Catholics should keep their Eastern traditions, traditions that they share with the Orthodox Church. In another part of the document, JPII also says that any apparent discrepancies between the Latin tradition and the Eastern tradition (e.g., the discrepancy in terms of when the Final Judgement happens) should be seen as complementary, rather than in contradiction, to one another.

Sorry but this is off the subject. I respect and love the Orthodox traditions( I Love their liturgies more than the Latin Mass and Novus Ordo) but they practice what don’t know, while I practice what I know, because I have an infallible judge thru the centuries ruling on what is true and what is error, Lets not go off topic. We love our separated brothers!!!

Do the Orthodox teach that one can be saved after death? I doubt it.
And even if they did ( which I doubt) they would be wrong. How do I know? Because they have NO infallible judge to make such a ruling.

We Catholics do and the Council of Lyons ( with the Pope’s Blessing) ruled it is not possible to chose after death end of subject.

If you want to pursue this line of reasoning go right ahead BUT be warned, all those reading this thread will see how erroneous your opinion is and they will then side with me.

 

[Sirach2]

Lumen Gentium:

1. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God. [snip] But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. [snip] Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things, and as Saviour wills that all men be saved. Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.

This is authentic Church teaching and is in agreement with scripture. When the natural law written in man’s hearts is obeyed and followed, even though they know not God’s law, God will judge them and they will be justified.

Romans 2:4 There is no partiality with God.
**5 All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it. ** For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, **those who observe the law will be justified. **

For when the Gentiles [or any nonCatholic persons] who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.

They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people’s hidden works through Christ Jesus.

Continuing Lumen Gentium 16:

Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps [actual graces] necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.

To pull the last sentence out of context as though the preceding content was of no value, is erroneous. Yes, the Church views this as a preparation for the Gospel, but it She does not state that this will occur as a matter of fact. So we fall back on the previous sentence that God will continue to give these persons His actual graces to follow their conscience written in their hearts, and it WILL justify them.

It is unconscionable to me that there are people who assume for themselves the role of teacher of the Church’s doctrine, stating as fact their own private interpretation. Only the Church is the authentic teacher and interpreter of God’s revelation in the scriptures, and not finite man who reads a document and assumes to himself how it should be interpreted. If there is a lack of understanding, we need only go to the Church, rather to an internet forum where so many wild opinions are circulating that it would be difficult to believe what is the mind of the Church.

 

[chypmonk]

I’m not interpreting, I’m reading the words.

It is giving a defense for the missionary activity of the Church and it’s grave importance. We must bring the Gospel to others in order to “procure [their] salvation”.

Keep reading…

… And what are those “helps NECESSARY for salvation”?
Baptism.
Explicit Faith in Jesus Christ.

Those who truly and honestly search for God are being “*prepared *”(as L.G. says) to receive (and embrace) the Truth.

Lumen Gentium does not exist separated from the rest of the teachings of the Catholic Church, nor does it exist separated from the rest of the text that accompanies the two sentences you want to harp on!

well said!!

 

[Ahimsa]

I was looking for a source that demonstrates the Eastern belief in a “second chance” to accept Christ after death.

I’m well aware of relations between the East and West. I’m not convinced the Eastern Catholic churches teach that a man can choose Christ after death and so be saved. I’ve not come across that idea.

This Orthodox catechism explains things quite nicely. The Orthodox position on what happens right after death is that one may experience a ‘foretaste’ of one’s apparent destiny, but that foretaste is not the Final Judgement:

But the final division into the saved and the condemned will actually take place at the universal Last Judgment, when ‘many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt’ (Dan.12:2). Before the Last Judgment, the righteous souls anticipate the joy of Paradise, while the souls of sinners anticipate the torments of Gehenna.

Before the Final Judgement, the bodies of all are resurrected and then Judged:

Immediately after the common resurrection, will be the Last Judgment at which the final decision is taken as to who is worthy of the Kingdom of heaven and who should be sentenced to the torments of Hell. “Hell” here actually means “Gehenna”.] Before this event, however, there exists the possibility for the person in Hell [here, “Hell” refers to the state of existing in Hades, but being on the path towards eternal damnation, or Gehenna] to gain release; after the Last Judgment this possibility no longer remains.

(The place of the dead is called “Hades” or “Hell”, and in this place one may experience a foretaste of one’s ultimate destiny. “Hell” does not properly refer to the everlasting damnation, which is properly called “Gehenna”.)

Once the Final Judgement is made, there is no possibility of change. But before the Final Judgement is made, the person may indeed see an alteration of their apparent destiny. How does this happen? Who knows? Maybe Christ appears to people before the Final Judgement, even to Hindus?

*Can there be an answer here to the complex question of whether or not there exists the possibility for non-Christians and non-believers to be saved? The Orthodox tradition has always asserted that there is no salvation outside Christ, Baptism and the Church. However, not everyone who during his earthly life did not meet Christ is deprived of the possibility of being liberated from Hell “Hell” here refers to being in Hades, and on the path towards Gehenna] , for even in Hell [that is, Hades] the message of the Gospel is heard –because Jesus descended into Hell in order to preach the Gospel].

*So, according to Orthodoxy, those who have no encountered Christ on this earth, or who followed their conscience in remaining Hindu, may encounter Christ in Hades.

 

[AnneElliot]

It is unconscionable to me that there are people who assume for themselves the role of teacher of the Church’s doctrine, stating as fact their own private interpretation. Only the Church is the authentic teacher and interpreter of God’s revelation in the scriptures, and not finite man who reads a document and assumes to himself how it should be interpreted. If there is a lack of understanding, we need only go to the Church, rather to an internet forum where so many wild opinions are circulating that it would be difficult to believe what is the mind of the Church.

Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino
“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.”

Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos
“If any man does not enter the Church, or if any man departs from it, he is far from the hope of life and salvation.”

Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis
“Only those are to be accounted really members of the Church who have been regenerated in the waters of Baptism and profess the true faith, and have not cut themselves off from the structure of the Body by their own unhappy act or been severed therefrom…”

 

[AnneElliot]

This Orthodox catechism explains things quite nicely. The Orthodox position …

You said Eastern Catholics taught this…

Orthodox and Catholic are not the same.

 

[AnneElliot]

To pull the last sentence out of context as though the preceding content was of no value, is erroneous. Yes, the Church views this as a preparation for the Gospel, but it She does not state that this will occur as a matter of fact.

Two simple “yes” or “no” questions can clear this up:

1. Is God Provident?
2. Is God Omnipotent?

 

[Shin]

Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino
“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.”

Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos
“If any man does not enter the Church, or if any man departs from it, he is far from the hope of life and salvation.”

Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis
“Only those are to be accounted really members of the Church who have been regenerated in the waters of Baptism and profess the true faith, and have not cut themselves off from the structure of the Body by their own unhappy act or been severed therefrom…”

The number of declarations like this one could be multiplied ad infinitum.

Note that Cantate Domino is an infallible statement.

See also the creeds, such as the Athanasian Creed:

“Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.”

 

[Ahimsa]

You said Eastern Catholics taught this…

Orthodox and Catholic are not the same.

Orientale Lumen states that Eastern Catholics should follow the Eastern tradition. The Eastern tradition is communicated in that Orthodox catechism.

 

[AnneElliot]

The number of declarations like this one could be multiplied ad infinitum.

I did not want to be obnoxious and fill the entire thread. I figured a few statements from the Church would suffice for Sirach2 … after all, how many Popes and Councils have to teach a thing for it to be infallible?

 

[AnneElliot]

Orientale Lumen states that Eastern Catholics should follow the Eastern tradition. The Eastern tradition is communicated in that Orthodox catechism.

Does Orientale Lumen state that that particular catechism is to be taken as communicative of the entire Eastern tradition? Does it even quote or reference that catechism?