Invincible ignorance/material heresy

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From this St. Benedict Center (Feeneyite) website re Fr. Michael Muller: catholicism.org/father-mueller.html

Q. Have Protestants any faith in Christ?

A. They never had.

Q. Why not?

A. Because there never lived such a Christ as they imagine and believe in.

Q. In what kind of Christ do they believe?

A. In such a one whom they can make a liar with impunity, whose doctrines they can interpret as they please, and who does not care what a man believes, provided he be an honest man before the public.

Q. Will such a faith in such a Christ save Protestants?

A. No sensible man will assert such an absurdity.

Q. What follows from this?

A. That they die in their sins and are damned.

Back to the question, Anne - are you saying, in your admiration for Fr. Muller, that everyone who is not baptized a Catholic, is “damned?” … And/or that God will always intervene supernaturally to impart the truths of our faith to the invincibly ignorant?
 
Anne, you are in your own little world formed by the likes of Fr. Muller, and there is no reaching you. Let’s just hope the readers of this forum see through the heretical jargon you present here and do not get caught up in the same errors.

Good day.
 
Sirach2 said:
Anne, you are in your own little world formed by the likes of Fr. Muller, and there is no reaching you. Let’s just hope the readers of this forum see through the heretical jargon you present here and do not get caught up in the same errors.

Good day.
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Heretical jargon? Where have I presented something condemned by the Church? Please show me the Church document that condemns what I have said.
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Sirach2:
Back to the question, Anne - are you saying, in your admiration for Fr. Muller, that everyone who is not baptized a Catholic, is “damned?”
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Mark 16:16 “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.”

John 3:5 "Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.”

I will not say this or that person is damned (that’s not my job), but I will stand firmly on the truth of the necessity of the Church for salvation (as well as water Baptism) as has been revealed by God through His Church and defined countless times throughout her history. I know of no other means of salvation other than the Catholic Church. With the early Christians I recite the Athanasian Creed:
newadvent.org/cathen/02033b.htm

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate. The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible. The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Eternal and yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal. As also there are not Three Uncreated, nor Three Incomprehensibles, but One Uncreated, and One Uncomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son, not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting Salvation, that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man.
God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the substance of His mother, born into the world. Perfect God and Perfect Man, of a reasonable Soul and human Flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood. Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but One Christ. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into Flesh, but by taking of the Manhood into God. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by Unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one Man, so God and Man is one Christ. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into Hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into Heaven, He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire. This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved."
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Sirach2:
… And/or that God will always intervene supernaturally to impart the truths of our faith to the invincibly ignorant?
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God can use supernatural means to impart the truths of the Catholic Faith to the ignorant, yes. Does He have to? No. He can use whatever means He wills, but the fact is that He will reveal to them (somehow) the truths of Faith which must be believed in order to secure eternal salvation.

Hebrews 11:6 “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for anyone who approaches God must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who seek Him.”
 
Sirach2,

This thread has gone back and forth for so long, let me clarify one question from you.

Do you believe the Second Vatican Council changed the teachings of the Church?
 
ok everyone, my question has been answered, and i am no longer confused…there are probabaly hundreds of threads with this rediculous argument…i hold that baptism of blood and desire work in certian ways we may not be able to understand…God, somehow saves the truly invible ignorant soul who seeks Him with sincerety…anyway I move this thread be closed as the OP has been answered ad concluded.
 
Brian777 said:
well i mean that in any “list” of the official dogmas of the church, it is always listed as simply “Outside the Church there is no salvation”

a link to a basic list is here… jloughnan.tripod.com/dogma.htm …

not official by any means but this list or variations of it are all taken from from Denzinger I am almost positive…

"Membership of the Church is necessary for all men for salvation. (De fide.) "

another list is here…theworkofgod.org/dogmas.htm

(PSi found this in my search, and im placing it here as an aside…this is to show that arguing over this might not be the best thing we could do…regardless of what we believe on this subject, we all can agree that anyone who believes this ( jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/catholic_heresies-a_list.htm ) is in grave error, heresy, and may be headed for damnation. perhaps we should be refuting this, instead of refuting each other on a point of doctrine that can be validly disagreed upon in its particulars, but not in its essence, which is exactly what the above link does not accept…just food for thought.)
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The Catechism incorporates all those previous teachings. Start with the Catechism, it’s an accurate indication of what the Church teaches today.
 
Sirach2 said:
From this St. Benedict Center (Feeneyite) website re Fr. Michael Muller: catholicism.org/father-mueller.html

Q. Have Protestants any faith in Christ?

A. They never had.

Q. Why not?

A. Because there never lived such a Christ as they imagine and believe in.

Q. In what kind of Christ do they believe?

A. In such a one whom they can make a liar with impunity, whose doctrines they can interpret as they please, and who does not care what a man believes, provided he be an honest man before the public.

Q. Will such a faith in such a Christ save Protestants?

A. No sensible man will assert such an absurdity.

Q. What follows from this?

A. That they die in their sins and are damned.

Back to the question, Anne - are you saying, in your admiration for Fr. Muller, that everyone who is not baptized a Catholic, is “damned?” … And/or that God will always intervene supernaturally to impart the truths of our faith to the invincibly ignorant?
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I don’t know why you shared this, but clearly that “Q and A” you quoted does not cohere with Catholic teaching.
 
diggerdomer said:
I don’t know why you shared this, but clearly that “Q and A” you quoted does not cohere with Catholic teaching.
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I think that was the point. Since another poster had expressed such admiration for this Fr. Muller it was being shown the position that Fr. Muller holds, which is outside of Church teaching.
 
… “admiration”?

Where did that come up in this thread? Does “being in good standing”=“admiration”? :rolleyes:

How is the Q & A outside of Church teachings? :confused:
 
diggerdomer said:
The Catechism incorporates all those previous teachings. Start with the Catechism, it’s an accurate indication of what the Church teaches today.
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And the fact that St. Thomas adressed the teaching
of Baptism of Desire as legitimate, is proof that Baptism of Desire is a way to become a member of the Catholic Church. BOD & BOB are definitly NOT modernist theories. He started writing the Summa in 1265.
From the Summa:
"There are two things to be considered in this sacrament (the Eucharist) namely, the sacrament itself, and what is contained in it. Now it was stated above (1, Objection 2) that the reality of the sacrament is the unity of the mystical body, without which there can be no salvation; **for there is no entering into salvation outside the Church, **just as in the time of the deluge there was none outside the Ark, which denotes the Church, according to 1 Peter 3:20-21. And it has been said above (Question 68, Article 2), **that before receiving a sacrament, the reality of the sacrament can be had through the very desire of receiving the sacrament. Accordingly, before actual reception of this sacrament, a man can obtain salvation through the desire of receiving it, just as he can before Baptism through the desire of Baptism, **as stated above (Question 68, Article 2).
 
CradleCath;6731217] The fact that St. Thomas adressed the teaching
of Baptism of Desire as legitimate, is proof that Baptism of Desire is a way to become a member of the Catholic Church. BOD & BOB are definitly NOT modernist theories. He started writing the Summa in 1265.
From the Summa:
"There are two things to be considered in this sacrament (the Eucharist) namely, the sacrament itself, and what is contained in it. Now it was stated above (1, Objection 2) that the reality of the sacrament is the unity of the mystical body, without which there can be no salvation; **for there is no entering into salvation outside the Church, **just as in the time of the deluge there was none outside the Ark, which denotes the Church, according to 1 Peter 3:20-21. And it has been said above (Question 68, Article 2), **that before receiving a sacrament, the reality of the sacrament can be had through the very desire of receiving the sacrament. Accordingly, before actual reception of this sacrament, a man can obtain salvation through the desire of receiving it, just as he can before Baptism through the desire of Baptism, **as stated above (Question 68, Article 2).
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newadvent.org/summa/4073.htm
 
CradleCath said:
CradleCath;6731217] The fact that St. Thomas adressed the teaching
of Baptism of Desire as legitimate, is proof that Baptism of Desire is a way to become a member of the Catholic Church. BOD & BOB are definitly NOT modernist theories. He started writing the Summa in 1265.
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No one said they were “modernist” theories. At the same time, they are theories.

At the same time, St. Thomas Aquinas, Fr. Michael Mueller, Archbishop George Hay, St. Anthony Mary Claret, St. Alphonsus Ligouri all held that BOD/BOB applied ONLY to catechumens (those who already believed and were preparing to become Catholic) who for some reason or another could not be water-baptized. They did not hold the position of most of the people on this forum that people can be saved being totally ignorant of Christ.
 
diggerdomer said:
First, easiest example, the claim that Protestants never had faith in Christ. Is one obvious example enough?
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I think it isn’t easy to pin down Protestantism. It is more a movement than a religion or Church.
We can find Protestants that believe almost anything by there respective churches that is opposed to Christ’s teaching.

Some Protestants accept:
Homosexuality as not a sinful act pewresearch.org/pubs/1159/homosexuality-protestant-view

Divorce and remarriage conservapedia.com/Divorce

contraception en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_views_on_birth_control

abortion nrlc.org/news/1999/NRL199/sween.html

these are just a few.

So are they really following Christ?

Are they even the same movement as when they started?

Could we even include the Jehovah Witnesses as protestants too? I mean their sole rule of faith is the Bible. I know most non-Jehovah Witnesses would say they are not Christians but without an infallible judge, it is just one opinion against another. They take the Bible as the word of God. So who is to judge?

St. Augustine, although not authoritative like a Pope or Council, explains the Sacred Tradition well:
St. Augustine: Sermon VIII, PL 46:838; SS vol.IV, p.254 ff.:
“Baptism does not profit a man outside unity with the Church, for many heretics also possess this Sacrament, but not the fruits of salvation. Children baptized in other communions cease to be members of the Church when, after reaching the age of reason, they make formal profession of heresy, as, for example, by receiving communion in a non-Catholic church.”
 
The great and saintly Pope Leo XIII explains it thus:

POPE LEO XIII, ENCYCLICAL SATIS COGNITUM, JUNE 29, 1896, par. #9 :

“The Church, founded on these principles and mindful of her office, has done nothing with greater zeal and endeavour than she has displayed in guarding the integrity of the faith. Hence she regarded as rebels and expelled from the ranks of her children all who held beliefs on any point of doctrine different from her own. The Arians, the Montanists, the Novatians, the Quartodecimans, the Eutychians, did not certainly reject all Catholic doctrine: they abandoned only a certain portion of it. Still who does not know that they were declared heretics and banished from the bosom of the Church? In like manner were condemned all authors of heretical tenets who followed them in subsequent ages. ‘There can be nothing more dangerous than those heretics who admit nearly the whole cycle of doctrine, and yet by one word, as with a drop of poison, infect the real and simple faith taught by our Lord and handed down by Apostolic tradition’ (Auctor Tract. de Fide Orthodoxa contra Arianos)
“The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium. Epiphanius, Augustine, Theodore :, drew up a long list of the heresies of their times. St. Augustine notes that other heresies may spring up, to a single one of which, should any one give his assent, he is by the very fact cut off from Catholic unity. ‘No one who merely disbelieves in all (these heresies) can for that reason regard himself as a Catholic or call himself one. For there may be or may arise some other heresies, which are not set out in this work of ours, and, if any one holds to one single one of these he is not a Catholic’ (S. Augustinus, De Haeresibus, n. 88).

“…If then it be certain that anything is revealed by God, and this is not believed, then nothing whatever is believed by divine Faith: for what the Apostle St. James judges to be the effect of a moral delinquency, the same is to be said of an erroneous opinion in the matter of faith. ‘Whosoever shall offend in one point, is become guilty of all’ (Ep. James ii., 10). Nay, it applies with greater force to an erroneous opinion. For it can be said with less truth that every law is violated by one who commits a single sin, since it may be that he only virtually despises the majesty of God the Legislator. But he who dissents even in one point from divinely revealed truth absolutely rejects all faith, since he thereby refuses to honour God as the supreme truth and the formal motive of faith. ‘In many things they are with me, in a few things not with me; but in those few things in which they are not with me the many things in which they are will not profit them’ ” (S. Augustinus in Psal. liv., n. 19).” papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13satis.htm
 
chypmonk said:
I think it isn’t easy to pin down Protestantism. It is more a movement than a religion or Church.
We can find Protestants that believe almost anything by there respective churches that is opposed to Christ’s teaching.

Some Protestants accept:
Homosexuality as not a sinful act pewresearch.org/pubs/1159/homosexuality-protestant-view

Divorce and remarriage conservapedia.com/Divorce

contraception en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_views_on_birth_control

abortion nrlc.org/news/1999/NRL199/sween.html

these are just a few.

So are they really following Christ?

Are they even the same movement as when they started?

Could we even include the Jehovah Witnesses as protestants too? I mean their sole rule of faith is the Bible. I know most non-Jehovah Witnesses would say they are not Christians but without an infallible judge, it is just one opinion against another. They take the Bible as the word of God. So who is to judge?

St. Augustine, although not authoritative like a Pope or Council, explains the Sacred Tradition well:
St. Augustine: Sermon VIII, PL 46:838; SS vol.IV, p.254 ff.:
“Baptism does not profit a man outside unity with the Church, for many heretics also possess this Sacrament, but not the fruits of salvation. Children baptized in other communions cease to be members of the Church when, after reaching the age of reason, they make formal profession of heresy, as, for example, by receiving communion in a non-Catholic church.”
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You’re going beyond the question asked. Show me one Protestant person or church who claims they do not have faith in Christ. That’s what the post said that I was responding to.
 
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Tradycja:
At the same time, St. Thomas Aquinas, Fr. Michael Mueller, Archbishop George Hay, St. Anthony Mary Claret, St. Alphonsus Ligouri all held that BOD/BOB applied ONLY to **catechumens **(those who already believed and were preparing to become Catholic) who for some reason or another could not be water-baptized. They did not hold the position of most of the people on this forum that people can be saved being totally ignorant of Christ.
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Well now, if we can’t get past the proofs that people submitted about BOD/BOB, then maybe we can distort it a little to make it less credible by alleging that only “catechumens” can receive either. Oh boy, is that a stretch! :rolleyes:

You cut-paste the point that substantiates your belief, yet you do not post the very next paragraph that disproves it completely. Ah, I know you will jump through hoops to make the Church agree with you, but why is it that you negate all of the many other proofs that members have submitted? Where is your claim to being infallibly able to interpret the Church’s documents?
Reply to Objection 3. The sacrament of Baptism is said to be necessary for salvation in so far as man cannot be saved without, at least,** Baptism of desire; “which, with God, counts for the deed”**.
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It is so utterly ignoble to find Catholics in the position of the ancient jews who deplored the admission of gentiles to “their” religion. Equally similar and ignoble is the castigation toward those outside the Catholic religion asserted by those who go by the name Catholic. How brash and erroneous to assume that God is unable and unwilling to bring any into heaven or His kingdom unless they are water baptized, card-carrying Catholics! I feel like I’m witnessing the conflicts between Jesus and the Pharisees.

There was a most beautiful incident in the life of St. Therese who ardently shared Christ’s passion to save souls. She asked Our Lord for a special sign that her prayers of intercession were heard for the infamous, unrepentent, condemned sinner, Pranzini. He had refused confession and by all appearances was ready for execution without contrition or remorse. At the last moment, most assuredly due to St. Therese’s prayers, he suddenly asked for the crucifix and kissed it three times.

We are also assured with Jesus’ own words that the “good thief” was justified, and he was certainly NOT a catechumen! Why is it that God cannot be God, and grant mercy to such as these? I send you to the Diary of St. Faustina and the revelations entrusted to her about God’s INFINITE mercy, something that is sadly lacking in threads of this nature.
 
“Proofs”!?!

Provide ONE Papal or Conciliar document that mentions the phrase “baptism of desire” and I will submit immediately to its being an authentic teaching of the Catholic Church. Just one will suffice.
 
This was addressed to Tradycja, not AnneElliot. As stated elsewhere, it is absolutely futile for me to submit over and over again the many documents that were presented in the several threads that you are active in. You ignore them all.

But let Fr. Muller of Feeneyite affiliation make a statement that you agree with, and he is elevated to an infallibility above the Church, pope, catechisms, or council teachings as being more correct.
 
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