Invincible Ignorance ? Yeah right?

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punisherthunder

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Under the topic of Nulla Salus, does Invincible Ignorance, really apply to Protestants?

The reason I ask is that I attended a Protestant service for a friend, but the pastor kept referring to Catholics as the “Cephas Clique”.

Am I really supposed to believe that they are not aware of the Church?
 
punisherthunder said:
Under the topic of Nulla Salus, does Invincible Ignorance, really apply to Protestants?

The reason I ask is that I attended a Protestant service for a friend, but the pastor kept referring to Catholics as the “Cephas Clique”.

Am I really supposed to believe that they are not aware of the Church?
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As a former anti-Catholic I can tell you that invincible ignorance runs deep and wide in some Protestant circles. If anyone dares to defend those teachings of the Church of which they are opposed, they metaphorically hold their hands tightly against their ears while loudly chanting, “La-la-la-la-la.” Oh yes, people can be very ignorant due to fear. I believe such fear is a tool of the devil, and that those who fall for it are truly victims. Most of these people would never harm a fly, but they get very upset if anyone tries to tell them they are wrong about the Church–a Church they actually know next to nothing about, but about which they cannot seek knowledge, again, for fear that doing so will lead them into the destruction of their salvation. Yes, they actually believe that, poor misguided souls.
 
punisherthunder said:
Under the topic of Nulla Salus, does Invincible Ignorance, really apply to Protestants?

The reason I ask is that I attended a Protestant service for a friend, but the pastor kept referring to Catholics as the “Cephas Clique”.

Am I really supposed to believe that they are not aware of the Church?
Click to expand...
I find the pastor’s reference to be, on the face of it, remarkably irresponsible and lacking in Christian love.
That said, why do you think the words of one pastor imply that all Christians who are part of a communion that is loosely identified as Protestant are knowledgeable of Catholic teaching?

Jon
 
punisherthunder said:
Under the topic of Nulla Salus, does Invincible Ignorance, really apply to Protestants?

The reason I ask is that I attended a Protestant service for a friend, but the pastor kept referring to Catholics as the “Cephas Clique”.

Am I really supposed to believe that they are not aware of the Church?
Click to expand...
It might apply to some of them. Not all. The Church does not teach universal salvation for all who profess to believe in Christ. Even in our times, Pope Francis is on record as saying that you can’t say you love Jesus but reject the Church.

Remember, many of these people have been fed myths and misconceptions about what the Church is and what she stands for. This comes in the way of their learning and accepting the truth.

Abp. Sheen’s quote that “few people hate the Church; many hate what they believe the Church is” is apposite in this context.
 
The question is whether or not a given Protestant has, in reasonable diligence, sought to overcome their ignorance. If they do exercise reasonable diligence to clear up a theological question, and if they nonetheless continue to have a lack of knowledge about the truth which they otherwise ought to have, through no fault of their own, then yes, they can be invincibly ignorant.

But when it comes to applying this to individual cases, well, as Fr. Mitch Pacwa might say, that’s is a management question! We’re in sales.
 
JonNC said:
I find the pastor’s reference to be, on the face of it, remarkably irresponsible and lacking in Christian love.
That said, why do you think the words of one pastor imply that all Christians who are part of a communion that is loosely identified as Protestant are knowledgeable of Catholic teaching?

Jon
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This was a fairly big congregation, on the cusp of being a “mega church”. I had talked things over with this friend of mine afterward and they felt bad about it. But that wasn’t the only anti Catholic statement I heard there, it just happened to really, really dagger me the wrong way.

But in reading various articles about Nulla Salus, the invincible ignorance argument, and my experience at the every day Protestant church, I’m seriously trying to see how lot of Protestants try to ignore and avoid the Catholic Church.
 
JonNC said:
I find the pastor’s reference to be, on the face of it, remarkably irresponsible and lacking in Christian love.
That said, why do you think the words of one pastor imply that all Christians who are part of a communion that is loosely identified as Protestant are knowledgeable of Catholic teaching?

Jon
Click to expand...
Many Protestant churches (pastors) are anti-Catholic. Calvary Chapel is known for it (my brother attended one years ago and also found this to be true) and a mega Church I attended for bible study was so bad I had to stop attending.

I contacted the pastor of the mega church and asked him if he/they were teaching anti- Catholic things or had I just run into a few individuals with an axe to grind.

He told me that his church was anti- Catholic and suggested I stop attending bible study there because they weren’t going to change. That particular church had thousands of members at the time.

I know there are thousands of Protestant churches and I would like to think many are not anti-Catholic but I am not sure.
 
LaetenturCaeli said:
The question is whether or not a given Protestant has, in reasonable diligence, sought to overcome their ignorance. If they do exercise reasonable diligence to clear up a theological question, and if they nonetheless continue to have a lack of knowledge about the truth which they otherwise ought to have, through no fault of their own, then yes, they can be invincibly ignorant.

But when it comes to applying this to individual cases, well, as Fr. Mitch Pacwa might say, that’s is a management question! We’re in sales.
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Exactly, most Anti-Catholic protestants dislike misconceptions of the Church, and not the actual Church teachings, themselves, because they don’t investigate enough to actually know what’s official.

So yeah, I do think there is a lot of ignorance out there, invincible or otherwise that is taken into account in regards to culpability.
 
Lenten_ashes said:
Exactly, most Anti-Catholic protestants dislike misconceptions of the Church, and not the actual Church teachings, themselves, because they don’t investigate enough to actually know what’s official.
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When I was a Protestant, the Catholic Church wasn’t even on my radar! If I heard anything anti-Catholic, it didn’t stick.

My parents & sibling attended Protestant churches that weren’t anti-Catholic, but at least once each pastor came up with something “off” about the Catholic Church. Mom & sibling both checked with me to see if the statements were true. They weren’t. 😦
 
LaetenturCaeli said:
The question is whether or not a given Protestant has, in reasonable diligence, sought to overcome their ignorance. If they do exercise reasonable diligence to clear up a theological question, and if they nonetheless continue to have a lack of knowledge about the truth which they otherwise ought to have, through no fault of their own, then yes, they can be invincibly ignorant.

But when it comes to applying this to individual cases, well, as Fr. Mitch Pacwa might say, that’s is a management question! We’re in sales.
Click to expand...
If a Catholic is not well-schooled in their faith or if they have studied and cannot accept some of its tenets, can that Catholic also have invincible ignorance?
 
lax16 said:
Many Protestant churches (pastors) are anti-Catholic. Calvary Chapel is known for it (my brother attended one years ago and also found this to be true) and a mega Church I attended for bible study was so bad I had to stop attending.

I contacted the pastor of the mega church and asked him if he/they were teaching anti- Catholic things or had I just run into a few individuals with an axe to grind.

He told me that his church was anti- Catholic and suggested I stop attending bible study there because they weren’t going to change. That particular church had thousands of members at the time.

I know there are thousands of Protestant churches and I would like to think many are not anti-Catholic but I am not sure.
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Couldn’t imagine being a part of a church that was “anti” anything. Such a negative term. Wasn’t until 2 years ago that I found out anti-Catholics could be fellow Christians. Always assumed anti-Catholic was a nickname for Atheists, since they didn’t believe in God. I apologize to any atheists out there for making that assumption.

Even if I wasn’t Catholic I couldn’t imagine sitting comfortably in a pew while my Pastor spoke negatively about Catholics, Baptists, Other Protestants or Mormons. I’m go to church to be filled with the positive words of Christ not the negative opinions of a fallible man.
Matthew 7:20
20 Thus you will know them by their fruits.

I use this verse because it was used against me by an anti-Catholic who assumed the Catholic fruits were all of the misinformation he had learned about the Catholic Church.

Wished I would of told him he might want to remove that log from his eye before we move forward. 😃

I’m thinking the log in our eye Luke 6:37-42 is the invincible ignorance. Jesus says in the parable: “Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? 40 A disciple is not above his teacher, but every one when he is fully taught will be like his teacher.

To pick up the Bible and begin to interpret and teach, without having the faith handed down from the original teachers (the Apostles), is saying you are above your teacher, which goes against Jesus’ words. I think you would have to be invincible ignorant to be able to think you can interpret the Word of God without knowing what the original teachers taught.
 
meltzerboy said:
If a Catholic is not well-schooled in their faith or if they have studied and cannot accept some of its tenets, can that Catholic also have invincible ignorance?
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I would say yes if they are not well-schooled in their faith. I for one was poorly schooled. I’ve learned more here in the past 2 years than I learned in the first 44 years of my life. I think I still have some ignorance on some issues :tsktsk: but can no longer claim invincible ignorance. :getholy:

If they cannot accept some of its tenets I would say they haven’t studied hard enough and they need to keep digging deeper to better understand what is being taught. 👍
 
JonNC said:
I find the pastor’s reference to be, on the face of it, remarkably irresponsible and lacking in Christian love.
That said, why do you think the words of one pastor imply that all Christians who are part of a communion that is loosely identified as Protestant are knowledgeable of Catholic teaching?

Jon
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Why would he think otherwise Jon? Do people go to church to hear untruths?

Peace!!!
 
adf417 said:
Why would he think otherwise Jon? Do people go to church to hear untruths?

Peace!!!
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I’ve said this for years. Most people in the pews of Protestant churches couldn’t care less what the Catholic Church teaches. They are not protesting the Catholic Church. They typically go to the church their parents went to, or the one they married into . Most see the CC as the church two blocks down that a friend of theirs goes to.

Many of the ones who do care think Lutherans are no better. We baptize babies and use wine and wear robes and have crucifixes.

But the worst of it is they might think Catholics and others like Lutherans aren’t saved because they don’t go to the right church. Given the topic, does anyone think that’s incredibly ironic?

Jon
 
benjohnson said:
That’s why I hit my head with hammer after coming here to this forum - so as to maintain my invincible ignorance.

:hypno:
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I could tell when I read your responses. Please, hit yourself harder, and get us all out of this misery. 😉
 
meltzerboy said:
If a Catholic is not well-schooled in their faith or if they have studied and cannot accept some of its tenets, can that Catholic also have invincible ignorance?
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Yes, and I believe this to be the main reason Amoris Laetitia was written. As a previous poster mentioned, and I can verify with my experience in Catholic schools, catechesis was very poor in the 1970’s thru 2000’s. However, that is starting to change.
 
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