Invincible Ignorance ? Yeah right?

[dmar198]

Under the topic of Nulla Salus, does Invincible Ignorance, really apply to Protestants? … Am I really supposed to believe that they are not aware of the Church?

First, sometimes invincible ignorance applies to Protestants and sometimes it does not. It depends on each Protestant and on the mercy of God. Second, invincible ignorance can sometimes cover people who know about the Church’s existence but do not think it is the true Church.

Francisco Vitoria pointed this out in 1532 A.D.: "[If] before hearing anything of the Christian religion [the pagans] were excused [from the sin of unbelief], they are put under no fresh obligation by a simple declaration and announcement of [the gospel], for such announcement is no proof or incentive to belief… Nay…it would be rash and imprudent for any one to believe anything, especially in matters which concern salvation, unless he knows that this is asserted by a man worthy of credence…[therefore] matters of faith are seen and become evident by reason of their credibility.” (On the Indians Lately Discovered Section 2 Chapter 10)

This is an important passage from Church History because it shows an awareness by the counter-reformers that people who have heard of Catholicism can sometimes still count as invincibly ignorant. Hearing of Catholicism isn’t enough to take away invincible ignorance. The message has to be conveyed with evident reasons for its credibility. If you have reasonable grounds for doubting that Catholicism is true, you can still count as invincibly ignorant.

Another counter-reformer who understood this was Robert Persons. In 1607 A.D., while on a mission trip to an Anglican country, he wrote a book that explained (in one part) that we give Protestants the benefit of the doubt because of our doctrine of invincible ignorance:

"[We] do not easily condemn or hold all and every sort of Protestants, Puritans, or the like…[as] absolute Heretics, but [we] excus[e] them [wherever] we may by…charitable interpretation… St. Augustine…affirm[ed] to his friend Honoratus [who was] infected with the Manichean Heresy, that there is a great difference between an Heretic, and one that believeth Heretics, and is deceived by them… And hereby [he] openeth to us a door to think charitably of many Protestants, whom though we hold for deceived; yet not properly in St. Augustine’s meaning for Heretics. … And all these limitations and charitable moderations we do willingly use to calm and mitigate matters [between Catholics and Protestants].” (A Treatise Tending to Mitigation Toward Catholic Subjects in England Pages 63-65)

Both of these quotes, from Francisco Vitoria and from Robert Persons, are part of the proof that the Church has never held to the Sedevacantist interpretation of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. It is true that no one outside the Church is saved, but it is also true that some people who Appear to be outside the Church are actually In it. In our Church’s history, many great saints and ecumenical councils have emphasized the latter point just as much as the former. The latter quote might apply in an even greater way to the protestants You are discussing, since it emphasizes that invincible ignorance can cover people who are Deceived about the Catholic Church. You mentioned that the pastor calls us the “Cephas Clique.” That is a deception and, if he and his audience have been deceived by people who lied to them, that can help mitigate some of their responsibility for their ignorance, rendering them, possibly, at greater risk of invincible ignorance.

Also remember that invincible ignorance is not a Good thing. From one perspective it is merciful, since God uses it to save people who would otherwise go to hell. But it is also worthwhile to point out that invincible ignorance is a form of ignorance of the Truth, and people are always better off being freed by the truth than being shackled by ignorance, even the invincible kind.

I hope that helps. Please let me know. God bless!

 

[adf417]

I’ve said this for years. Most people in the pews of Protestant churches couldn’t care less what the Catholic Church teaches. They are not protesting the Catholic Church. They typically go to the church their parents went to, or the one they married into . Most see the CC as the church two blocks down that a friend of theirs goes to.

Many of the ones who do care think Lutherans are no better. We baptize babies and use wine and wear robes and have crucifixes.

But the worst of it is they might think Catholics and others like Lutherans aren’t saved because they don’t go to the right church. Given the topic, does anyone think that’s incredibly ironic?

Jon

Ironic? No. But you would not just take the passive road either would you? Your ministry here on CAF prooves otherwise and I thank you for it.

Peace!!!

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Under the topic of Nulla Salus, does Invincible Ignorance, really apply to Protestants?

The reason I ask is that I attended a Protestant service for a friend, but the pastor kept referring to Catholics as the “Cephas Clique”.

Am I really supposed to believe that they are not aware of the Church?

Well you should also keep in mind that just because people are aware of the Catholic Church and take pot shots at it, it doesn’t necessarily mean they would not have invincible ignorance. They might be so set in their ways that they might never take any objection to their belief system seriously. I can easily imagine people living their whole lives without giving Catholicism ever a serious thought, and that are so deep into their own faith tradition that they will never entertain these kinds of questions.

I think that is important, too.

 

[punisherthunder]

I found this from St. John Vianney:

One day the saintly Curé d’Ars was visited by a Protestant gentleman. The good priest, thinking he was a Catholic, began to speak to him about Our Lord and the Saints, as he was accustomed to do with all who came to see him

As the man rose to leave, the Saint gave him a medal as a small remembrance of his visit.

The gentleman said to him: “Dear sir, you have given a medal to one who is a heretic – at least, I am a heretic from your point of view. But although we are not of the same religion, I hope we shall both be in Heaven one day.”

St. John Vianney took the man’s hand in his own and, giving him a penetrating look, answered: “Alas, my friend. We cannot be together in Heaven unless we have begun to live so in this world. Death makes no change in that. As the tree falls, so shall it lie."

“But, my good Father,” replied the other, “I put my trust in Jesus Christ, Who said, ‘He that believes in Me shall have eternal life.’”
The priest answered: “Jesus Christ said many more things than that. He also said, ‘He that does not hear the Church, let him be to thee as a heathen and a publican.’ And he also said, ‘There shall be one fold and one shepherd,’ and He made St. Peter the chief shepherd of His flock.”

Then he added, “My dear friend, there are not two ways of serving Jesus Christ. There is only one good way, and that is to serve Him as He Himself desires to be served.”
Saying this, the priest left the man. But these words sank deeply into the Protestant’s heart, and led him to renounce the errors in which he had been brought up, and he became a fervent Catholic.

 

[Jarteta]

This is my first post on the forum, and I would like to ask some advice on a related topic. I am 18 years old and shall be attending seminary up in Philadelphia at St. Charles Borromeo Seminary for priestly formation come August. I am a cradle Catholic and have attended a scant few Protestant services but it has been many many years and I forget much of what I saw.

I am certain that in my future I will come across Protestants who wish to debate me on my faith, and I know that ignorance can be quite a hindrance in such matters, and I have contemplated attending a few Protestant services by myself this summer so as to not be ignorant when comparing such a service to the Catholic Mass. This particular topic has prompted some concern for me, for a particular reason. During the Superbowl, my younger sister went with some friends to a “mega church” to view the game for some sort of event they were hosting, and upon hearing that she was Catholic, they began to attack her for her faith and heckle her, ignoring all of her responses.

On to my question: do you believe this sort of “research” would be a boon or a hindrance, and also would it be best if I identified as Catholic when asked or simply attended incognito? Thank you all and God Bless

P.S. I would like to ask the member LaetenturCaeli from the first page where they got their profile picture, for it is the same symbol used by my home parish.

Josh Arteta

 

[1Lord1Faith]

This is my first post on the forum, and I would like to ask some advice on a related topic. I am 18 years old and shall be attending seminary up in Philadelphia at St. Charles Borromeo Seminary for priestly formation come August. I am a cradle Catholic and have attended a scant few Protestant services but it has been many many years and I forget much of what I saw.

I am certain that in my future I will come across Protestants who wish to debate me on my faith, and I know that ignorance can be quite a hindrance in such matters, and I have contemplated attending a few Protestant services by myself this summer so as to not be ignorant when comparing such a service to the Catholic Mass. This particular topic has prompted some concern for me, for a particular reason. During the Superbowl, my younger sister went with some friends to a “mega church” to view the game for some sort of event they were hosting, and upon hearing that she was Catholic, they began to attack her for her faith and heckle her, ignoring all of her responses.

On to my question: do you believe this sort of “research” would be a boon or a hindrance, and also would it be best if I identified as Catholic when asked or simply attended incognito? Thank you all and God Bless

P.S. I would like to ask the member LaetenturCaeli from the first page where they got their profile picture, for it is the same symbol used by my home parish.

Josh Arteta

I don’t think attending a few more Protestant services will help you now. There are to many denominations. However, I don’t see anything wrong with attending a few of the mainstream churches (Lutheran, Anglican, Southern Baptist etc…) if you would like to contrast the services, but just observe. If you do, be sure not to lose focus on your seminary.

Always identify yourself as Catholic when asked.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

When I was a Protestant, the Catholic Church wasn’t even on my radar! If I heard anything anti-Catholic, it didn’t stick.

I see. Well, I was agnostic until age 27 so I thought both sides were ignorant fools lol

My parents & sibling attended Protestant churches that weren’t anti-Catholic, but at least once each pastor came up with something “off” about the Catholic Church. Mom & sibling both checked with me to see if the statements were true. They weren’t.

Never understood why protestant ministers use their pulpit to take shots at the Catholic Church.

1.) That’s the source of their bible, humanly speaking.
2.) They have a tough enough job tending to their flock and their personal family, why waste time doing something that unproductive?

I could see if we were beating down their doors trying to convert them or something. But we are not. Don’t promote any of it but why not attack the JW’s or LDS who are sending recruiters to your door and attempting to steal your congregation?

 

[DarkLight]

Well you should also keep in mind that just because people are aware of the Catholic Church and take pot shots at it, it doesn’t necessarily mean they would not have invincible ignorance. They might be so set in their ways that they might never take any objection to their belief system seriously. I can easily imagine people living their whole lives without giving Catholicism ever a serious thought, and that are so deep into their own faith tradition that they will never entertain these kinds of questions.

I think that is important, too.

If you grew up like I did, “doubting” the faith you grew up in is seen as a very serious sin. It would be quite possible for someone to go through life ignoring challenges to their belief system because they believe that such challenges are all sent by the devil.

 

[Wannano]

I see. Well, I was agnostic until age 27 so I thought both sides were ignorant fools lol

Never understood why protestant ministers use their pulpit to take shots at the Catholic Church.

1.) That’s the source of their bible, humanly speaking.
2.) They have a tough enough job tending to their flock and their personal family, why waste time doing something that unproductive?

I could see if we were beating down their doors trying to convert them or something. But we are not. Don’t promote any of it but why not attack the JW’s or LDS who are sending recruiters to your door and attempting to steal your congregation?

I can only speak from what I have first handedly observed. I have heard ministers make reference to “cults” that come to your door and do like you say "try to steal "people. The ministers I know would be very hesitant to term Catholicism as a cult. As far as taking shots at the Catholic Church I cannot think of more than one time in my experience that I considered that to have happened by a visiting minister and I know many were disturbed by it. I have heard references to the Catholic teaching that is practiced differently than us but not in a degrading sense but from an awareness of the wide spectrum of interpretation and practice.

I will relate a true happening. I was at a Catholic funeral being celebrated by an elderly priest who was called out of retirement because he was an old friend of the family. When the time came for people to receive the Eucharist, this is pretty much word for word what he said .
“Now, I have been told that there are numerous Protestants here today so if you are one of those just sit down.” The last four words were said with a tone that conveyed an attitude that raised the eyebrows of the Catholic faithful and was a humorous topic of friendly bantering at the luncheon that followed. Potshots probably go both ways!

 

[Bonnie]

Never understood why protestant ministers use their pulpit to take shots at the Catholic Church.

Nor I. But to his credit, mom’s minister wasn’t really trying to bash the Catholic Church, he just told an incredibly mangled story about St. Francis to make a point about something. It sounded strange to mom & she was right. Husband always says that if mom had lived longer, she might have become a Catholic.

 

[Della]

I found this from St. John Vianney:

One day the saintly Curé d’Ars was visited by a Protestant gentleman. The good priest, thinking he was a Catholic, began to speak to him about Our Lord and the Saints, as he was accustomed to do with all who came to see him

As the man rose to leave, the Saint gave him a medal as a small remembrance of his visit.

The gentleman said to him: “Dear sir, you have given a medal to one who is a heretic – at least, I am a heretic from your point of view. But although we are not of the same religion, I hope we shall both be in Heaven one day.”

St. John Vianney took the man’s hand in his own and, giving him a penetrating look, answered: “Alas, my friend. We cannot be together in Heaven unless we have begun to live so in this world. Death makes no change in that. As the tree falls, so shall it lie."

“But, my good Father,” replied the other, “I put my trust in Jesus Christ, Who said, ‘He that believes in Me shall have eternal life.’”
The priest answered: “Jesus Christ said many more things than that. He also said, ‘He that does not hear the Church, let him be to thee as a heathen and a publican.’ And he also said, ‘There shall be one fold and one shepherd,’ and He made St. Peter the chief shepherd of His flock.”

Then he added, “My dear friend, there are not two ways of serving Jesus Christ. There is only one good way, and that is to serve Him as He Himself desires to be served.”
Saying this, the priest left the man. But these words sank deeply into the Protestant’s heart, and led him to renounce the errors in which he had been brought up, and he became a fervent Catholic.

That’s fine, but it doesn’t prove your point. The man did have invincible ignorance when he spoke to the saint. But the saint used the opportunity to evangelize him. As saints often had the ability to do, he read the man’s heart and challenged his assumptions. The man eventually repented, due to the saint telling him things he needed to hear when he was disposed to hear it. However, not everyone is disposed to hear the truth. That man resisted, at first, because he was so sure of his position. Still, he might not have converted if he hadn’t been able/willing to listen. There is such a thing as willfully rejecting the truth, of course. But there is also such a thing as not being disposed to listen. The Church recognizes this problem, and knowing the mercy of God, understands that God works with people where they are. Of course, it would be best if everyone could “see” the truth and so receive all the benefit of living in that truth which it affords them, but God will not break the bent reed or put out a flickering flame by overwhelming the person against his will or his disposition to hear.

 

[punisherthunder]

That’s fine, but it doesn’t prove your point. The man did have invincible ignorance when he spoke to the saint. But the saint used the opportunity to evangelize him. As saints often had the ability to do, he read the man’s heart and challenged his assumptions. The man eventually repented, due to the saint telling him things he needed to hear when he was disposed to hear it. However, not everyone is disposed to hear the truth. That man resisted, at first, because he was so sure of his position. Still, he might not have converted if he hadn’t been able/willing to listen. There is such a thing as willfully rejecting the truth, of course. But there is also such a thing as not being disposed to listen. The Church recognizes this problem, and knowing the mercy of God, understands that God works with people where they are. Of course, it would be best if everyone could “see” the truth and so receive all the benefit of living in that truth which it affords them, but God will not break the bent reed or put out a flickering flame by overwhelming the person against his will or his disposition to hear.

You’re incorrect.

He did not have invincible ignorance because he admitted from the first encounter that he was a heretic. That means he knew he was distant from the Church, but continued to pine that he hope to be in Heaven anyways.

 

[masuwerte]

I know a bit of Catholic teaching, and I know that some of it is mistaken. I suspect you would consider me invincibly ignorant, but I don’t really care.

 

[Della]

You’re incorrect.

He did not have invincible ignorance because he admitted from the first encounter that he was a heretic. That means he knew he was distant from the Church, but continued to pine that he hope to be in Heaven anyways.

No, my friend. As I read it, the man could have said that because he would understand that the saint would see him as a heretic, not necessarily that he saw himself that way. Heretics don’t see themselves as heretics. They see themselves as having the truth. If they actually thought of themselves as heretics they’d correct their condition without anyone having to correct them.

The point of the story has nothing to do with invincible ignorance. You are attempting to shoehorn it into saying that it does. The point of the story is we need to be ready at all times to correct, when needed, those who are ignorant of the truth, which this man was.

 

[Contarini]

Many Protestant churches (pastors) are anti-Catholic. Calvary Chapel is known for it (my brother attended one years ago and also found this to be true) and a mega Church I attended for bible study was so bad I had to stop attending.

I contacted the pastor of the mega church and asked him if he/they were teaching anti- Catholic things or had I just run into a few individuals with an axe to grind.

He told me that his church was anti- Catholic and suggested I stop attending bible study there because they weren’t going to change. That particular church had thousands of members at the time.

I know there are thousands of Protestant churches and I would like to think many are not anti-Catholic but I am not sure.

Well, in fact many are not. Generally speaking “mainline” churches are not, although you may get some negative references to Catholic teaching on “sex and gender” issues, and Episcopalians often preach a rather defensive sermon on the Sunday when the lectionary requires them to cover Matt. 16.

Most evangelicals I know aren’t particularly anti-Catholic either. There are evangelicals who join oblate programs at monasteries, go on retreats, read Catholic devotional literature (Henri Nouwen is particularly popular among mainliners and moderate evangelicals–Merton is too), and so on. Conservatives love Catholic teaching on abortion and certain sexual issues (generally they try to look away on birth control, though even that is changing as the coherence of the Catholic alternative to current cultural trends becomes clearer), “progressives” like the teachings on war and poverty and so on, and every so often somebody says (as I did when I first encountered Catholic social teaching at the age of 18), “wow–these guys put together what we so often hold apart–maybe they know something we don’t!”

 

[TC3033]

Well, in fact many are not. Generally speaking “mainline” churches are not, although you may get some negative references to Catholic teaching on “sex and gender” issues, and Episcopalians often preach a rather defensive sermon on the Sunday when the lectionary requires them to cover Matt. 16.

Most evangelicals I know aren’t particularly anti-Catholic either. There are evangelicals who join oblate programs at monasteries, go on retreats, read Catholic devotional literature (Henri Nouwen is particularly popular among mainliners and moderate evangelicals–Merton is too), and so on. Conservatives love Catholic teaching on abortion and certain sexual issues (generally they try to look away on birth control, though even that is changing as the coherence of the Catholic alternative to current cultural trends becomes clearer), “progressives” like the teachings on war and poverty and so on, and every so often somebody says (as I did when I first encountered Catholic social teaching at the age of 18), “wow–these guys put together what we so often hold apart–maybe they know something we don’t!”

Agreed with the above, especially the bolded.

 

[Wildgraywolf]

Many of the ones who do care think Lutherans are no better. We baptize babies and use wine and wear robes and have crucifixes.

But the worst of it is they might think Catholics and others like Lutherans aren’t saved because they don’t go to the right church. Given the topic, does anyone think that’s incredibly ironic?

Jon

Yup. That sure sounds like things my in-laws say.

 

[punisherthunder]

No, my friend. As I read it, the man could have said that because he would understand that the saint would see him as a heretic, not necessarily that he saw himself that way. Heretics don’t see themselves as heretics. They see themselves as having the truth. If they actually thought of themselves as heretics they’d correct their condition without anyone having to correct them.

The point of the story has nothing to do with invincible ignorance. You are attempting to shoehorn it into saying that it does. The point of the story is we need to be ready at all times to correct, when needed, those who are ignorant of the truth, which this man was.

The Protestant admits he’s a heretic upon arrival. You stated that invincible ignorance is already present in your initial reply…“That’s fine, but it doesn’t prove your point. The man did have invincible ignorance when he spoke to the saint. But the saint used the opportunity to evangelize him.”

The interaction with St. John Vianney reveals certain things:

1. The Protestant admits to heresy
   At this point, invincible ignorance is out the window.
2. SJV educates the Protestant
3. The Protestant converts.

If there was no admission of heresy on the Protestant’s part, then the I.I. argument prevails. I suspect if you asked enough Protestants if what they participate in is heretical, then you will see the I.I. percentage dwindle very far down.

 

[Della]

The Protestant admits he’s a heretic upon arrival. You stated that invincible ignorance is already present in your initial reply…“That’s fine, but it doesn’t prove your point. The man did have invincible ignorance when he spoke to the saint. But the saint used the opportunity to evangelize him.”

The interaction with St. John Vianney reveals certain things:

1. The Protestant admits to heresy
   At this point, invincible ignorance is out the window.
2. SJV educates the Protestant
3. The Protestant converts.

If there was no admission of heresy on the Protestant’s part, then the I.I. argument prevails. I suspect if you asked enough Protestants if what they participate in is heretical, then you will see the I.I. percentage dwindle very far down.

I must not have expressed myself well because with your last sentence, which I bolded, you stated what I stated–that heretics don’t see themselves as heretics. Therefore, I maintain that the man in the story called himself a heretic because that is how he believed the saint thought of him–not that he was admitting his heresy. In any case, whether your interpretation or mine is right, the Church maintains that there is such a thing as invincible ignorance, therefore we accept it even if we don’t fully grasp what she means by it.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

I can only speak from what I have first handedly observed. I have heard ministers make reference to “cults” that come to your door and do like you say "try to steal "people. The ministers I know would be very hesitant to term Catholicism as a cult. As far as taking shots at the Catholic Church I cannot think of more than one time in my experience that I considered that to have happened by a visiting minister and I know many were disturbed by it. I have heard references to the Catholic teaching that is practiced differently than us but not in a degrading sense but from an awareness of the wide spectrum of interpretation and practice.

I will relate a true happening. I was at a Catholic funeral being celebrated by an elderly priest who was called out of retirement because he was an old friend of the family. When the time came for people to receive the Eucharist, this is pretty much word for word what he said .
"Now, I have been told that there are numerous Protestants here today so if you are one of those just sit down." The last four words were said with a tone that conveyed an attitude that raised the eyebrows of the Catholic faithful and was a humorous topic of friendly bantering at the luncheon that followed. Potshots probably go both ways!

Well that was incredibly rude of him.

I have heard a few anti-protestant remarks from Catholics but for the most part they speak well of our separated brethren. We even steal some of your contemporary Christian music