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AnneElliot
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It has yet to be established that the Church authentically teaches that idea. There is no exception to the necessity of the Sacrament of Baptism.
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SGT_ROCK_33
Guest
I’m saying that BOD and BOB has never been taught. There is much speculation by the Saints and Doctors, but it has never been defined by the Popes or Councils.
I an unfamiliar with Fr. Feeney’s position. I am aware of who he is, but I am not fully capable of defending his position as I do not know exactly what it is.
I have developed my intellect on what the Popes and Councils have taught throughout the ages. And while I commend the Saints and Doctors of the Church, for they are truly gifted individuals, the gift of infallibility does not pertain to them.
I am not suggesting anything. I have pointed out that there are contradictions of the modern teaching of EENS, and what the prior Popes and Councils have specifically defined…that’s all.
God Bless
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ncjohn
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Maybe I’m missing something, but if your position is that “…there are contradictions of the modern teaching of EENS, and what the prior Popes and Councils have specifically defined” it would seem to follow that you are claiming that there has been a break and that “new” doctrine" is being taught. One cannot have a contradiction without there being something opposed to what existed.
How is that NOT suggesting that the Church is currently teaching error? To say there are contradictions to something “specifically defined” means that the Church is teaching something that is doctrinally different. That appears to in fact be your position since you have immediately rejected every reference to why the Church says that there is not a contradiction.
It is interesting to see a claim of not understanding Feeney’s position given the obvious depth and breadth of your research here and Feeney’s integral part in any discussion of the topic.
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ncjohn
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And yet, from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.
1258 **The Church has always held the firm conviction **that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.
So indeed it is being taught. And according to at least the paragraph on Baptism by Blood “The Church has always held the firm conviction…”, at least implying that it has always been taught.
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AnneElliot
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You’ll take careful notice that there is no footnote or reference for that claim. Not even in the Companion to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Where’s the evidence for the claim?
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ncjohn
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I’m not trying to establish the veracity of the claim since by simple virtue of it being taught as a doctrinal statement under the magisterial authority of the Church I am assured that it cannot be in error. I’m simply challenging the statement that it has never been taught when it is in fact being taught and the Church says it has always been taught.You’ll take careful notice that there is no footnote or reference for that claim. Not even in the Companion to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Where’s the evidence for the claim?
Since the Church, who holds the sole power of interpretation of what it teaches, claims that it HAS always been held, it is up to those who claim it has not and that this is a contradiction to prove that the Church’s claims are in error.
Of course the ramifications, if in fact the Church was to be teaching error, are enormous and can only lead to the conclusion that the Church is no longer the Church.
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SGT_ROCK_33
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I find it presumptious to say that I can’t form my own conclusion based on my own time and research on the subject. Actually, I find it insulting that you would insinuate such a thing. I have already said that I am unfamiliar with Fr. Feeney’s position. There are plenty of people who believe as I do about this particular topic as it is not something simply based on the opinions of one single person.
I have no reason to lie, sir.
God Bless
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AnneElliot
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If the Catechism is infallible, why do they make new ones, and, more importantly, why do they issue modifications and corrections? They could not do so if the Catechism was infallible. The Vatican is not going to issue a correction or modification to* Ineffabilis Deus*.
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SGT_ROCK_33
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I believe I have already proven that it was never taught until modern times. Rather, it was discussed and speculated, but never taught as part of Catholic dogma.
God Bless
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Lormar
Guest
Well, that is the end then of all infallibility.
If I understand what you have written correctly(let me define Church as being the only one - the Roman Catholic Church which is the only true Church):
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The Popes, prior to the Reformation, define Outside the Church there is no Salvation. It's pretty cut and dry, not much wiggle room. Along comes that heretic Martin Luther who throws the entire Church into chaos. The Holy Spirit, being (I assume) asleep on the job, had no way of knowing that a hundred or so years after an infallible definition of outside the Church there is no salvation there would come a time when many would be outside the Church. The Church plods along for a few centuries until the nineteenth, when we begin to hear whispers that there might be in fact salvation outside the Church, but only God knows.
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SGT_ROCK_33
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Very interesting…You’ll take careful notice that there is no footnote or reference for that claim. Not even in the Companion to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Where’s the evidence for the claim?
Great point.
God Bless
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ncjohn
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I don’t believe that you’ve “proven” any such thing but that part to me is irrelevant.
What I’m trying to understand is whether you’re just trying to figure out an absence of specific terminology for a concept the Church claims it has always held, or whether you are holding to the position that you noted earlier that this is a contradiction and that in fact the Church is teaching a “new” doctrine. I’m just unclear, as I said before, as to what you’re trying to accomplish with the thread, whether it’s an attempt to figure out how the Church addressed invincible ignorance in the past or whether you are just telling us that it did address it by the Feeney interpretation that there just aren’t any exceptions, period, in which case we’re back to saying that the Church is teaching error.
Can you answer simply which one it is? Or some other alternative that I’m missing?
I apologize if I really offended you somehow in asking the question. Feeney’s position is so intertwined with the topic that I can honestly say that I have never before met anyone with such a keen interest on the subject who couldn’t recite chapter and verse of Feeney’s position whether they agreed with it or not.
I have nowhere said the Catechism is infallible. However,since it is issued under the teaching authority of the magisterium and with the approval of the Pope, a doctrinal statement made in it cannot be in error since the Pope, especially coupled with the magisterium, cannot teach error in matters of faith and morals.
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AnneElliot
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Sirach2
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While I’m not re-entering this thread to engage in a papal quote war, as I said earlier, I do still have a concern for some problematic posts that I will address. It would be wise for those who imply by word or hint that the present Catechism is somehow not a solid teaching instrument and possibly not infallible, let me share with you the words of Pope John Paul II in the Prologue.
**3. The Doctrinal Value of the Text **
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved 25 June last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church’s faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition and the Church’s Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion. May it serve the renewal to which the Holy Spirit ceaselessly calls the Church of God, the Body of Christ, on her pilgrimage to the undiminished light of the Kingdom!
The approval and publication of the Catechism of the Catholic Church represent a service which the Successor of Peter wishes to offer to the Holy Catholic Church, to all the particular Churches in peace and communion with the Apostolic See: the service, that is, of supporting and confirming the faith of all the Lord Jesus’ disciples (cf. Lk 22:32 as well as of strengthening the bonds of unity in the same apostolic faith. Therefore, I ask all the Church’s Pastors and the Christian faithful to receive this catechism in a spirit of communion and to use it assiduously in fulfilling their mission of proclaiming the faith and calling people to the Gospel life. This catechism is given to them that it may be a sure and authentic reference text for teaching catholic doctrine and particularly for preparing local catechisms. It is also offered to all the faithful who wish to deepen their knowledge of the unfathomable riches of salvation (cf. Eph 3:8). It is meant to support ecumenical efforts that are moved by the holy desire for the unity of all Christians, showing carefully the content and wondrous harmony of the catholic faith. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, lastly, is offered to every individual who asks us to give an account of the hope that is in us (cf. 1 Pt 3:15) and who wants to know what the Catholic Church believes.
Source: vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/aposcons.htm
**3. The Doctrinal Value of the Text **
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved 25 June last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church’s faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition and the Church’s Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion. May it serve the renewal to which the Holy Spirit ceaselessly calls the Church of God, the Body of Christ, on her pilgrimage to the undiminished light of the Kingdom!
The approval and publication of the Catechism of the Catholic Church represent a service which the Successor of Peter wishes to offer to the Holy Catholic Church, to all the particular Churches in peace and communion with the Apostolic See: the service, that is, of supporting and confirming the faith of all the Lord Jesus’ disciples (cf. Lk 22:32 as well as of strengthening the bonds of unity in the same apostolic faith. Therefore, I ask all the Church’s Pastors and the Christian faithful to receive this catechism in a spirit of communion and to use it assiduously in fulfilling their mission of proclaiming the faith and calling people to the Gospel life. This catechism is given to them that it may be a sure and authentic reference text for teaching catholic doctrine and particularly for preparing local catechisms. It is also offered to all the faithful who wish to deepen their knowledge of the unfathomable riches of salvation (cf. Eph 3:8). It is meant to support ecumenical efforts that are moved by the holy desire for the unity of all Christians, showing carefully the content and wondrous harmony of the catholic faith. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, lastly, is offered to every individual who asks us to give an account of the hope that is in us (cf. 1 Pt 3:15) and who wants to know what the Catholic Church believes.
Source: vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/aposcons.htm
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ncjohn
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The Catechism is promulgated under the authority of the Pope whether he personally writes it or not and is therefore protected from doctrinal error.
Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood are matters of doctrine.
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AnneElliot
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Solely because they are included in the Catechism?
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Tradycja
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The Catechism is not an infallible document it is a ***mix ***of the Church’s infallible and non-infallible teaching. Over the course of the editions there have been many changes to the Catechism. For example here is the list: catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=220
For example the definition of a lie in the Catechism was changed.
The original printing read thus:
2508 Lying consists in saying what is false with the intention of deceiving the neighbor who has the right to the truth
The change promulgated by the CDF is:
2508. This paragraph will be changed to simply read:
“Lying consists in saying what is false with the intention of deceiving one’s neighbor.”
As you can see if the catechism were infallible it would NOT be changeable. Or do you believe that the definition of a lie changes at the will of the CDF?
For example the definition of a lie in the Catechism was changed.
The original printing read thus:
2508 Lying consists in saying what is false with the intention of deceiving the neighbor who has the right to the truth
The change promulgated by the CDF is:
2508. This paragraph will be changed to simply read:
“Lying consists in saying what is false with the intention of deceiving one’s neighbor.”
As you can see if the catechism were infallible it would NOT be changeable. Or do you believe that the definition of a lie changes at the will of the CDF?
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Sirach2
Guest
Every statement in the CCC does not have a footnote. In your mind, does that make it subject to your disregard? Nevertheless, there was a reference to 1259 that ncjohn brought to this discussion, and it was #1249, which states:
Footnote 48 refers to AG 14,5 which reads:
Footnote 49 refers to LG 14,3 and canon law 788,3.
So you see, the Church has well documented her teaching. It is hard to understand why someone would deliberatelly put themselves in peril of not adhering to it.
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AnneElliot
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Not disregard, but it distinguishes between the authentic teachings of the Church. Nothing is taught definitively in the Catechism that is not defined outside of it.
Do you hold BOD/BOB only for catechumens? This was the speculation of many of the Saints quoted in favor of BOD/BOB.
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ncjohn
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Again, I have not stated that the Catechism is infallible. Only that doctrinal statements within it are protected from error.
The wording of the definition you note might have changed. The meaning did not nor did it (or could it) change any statement of doctrine. Even the wording of a doctrinal statement made in the Catechism might be reworded for greater clarity so long as the doctrine it stated was not changed. That has nothing to do with infallibility. It is not the wording of the statement, per se, that cannot be changed as things can often be stated in multiple ways without changing the meaning.
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