invincible ignorance

[KEP1983]

Hey all,

I’m having a discussion with another Catholic, and we’re talking about invincible ignorance. He seems to have a much different impression of it than I think what the Church actually teaches.

Let’s just use an example-- one that we were discussing.

Imagine that there was a HUGE miracle that converted the entire world to Christianity. There were miraculous crosses floating in the air; all atheism and secular institutions were done away with instantly, and all religions other than Christianity were also done away with instantly. America, Europe, Russia, China, India, and every other nation became Catholic overnight miraculously.

Now let’s say a person who was already exposed to the Gospel EVEN BEFORE the conversion of the world STILL refused to believe.

Do you think they could they still be invincibly ignorant?

 

[kimg901]

Hey all,

I’m having a discussion with another Catholic, and we’re talking about invincible ignorance. He seems to have a much different impression of it than I think what the Church actually teaches.

Let’s just use an example-- one that we were discussing.

Imagine that there was a HUGE miracle that converted the entire world to Christianity. There were miraculous crosses floating in the air; all atheism and secular institutions were done away with instantly, and all religions other than Christianity were also done away with instantly. America, Europe, Russia, China, India, and every other nation became Catholic overnight miraculously.

Now let’s say a person who was already exposed to the Gospel EVEN BEFORE the conversion of the world STILL refused to believe.

Do you think they could they still be invincibly ignorant?

I would say they would not be able to invoke the right to I.I. Anyone that has heard it and denys the Gospel would be damned.

 

[KEP1983]

I would say they would not be able to invoke the right to I.I. Anyone that has heard it and denys the Gospel would be damned.

Interesting. I was talking to someone about Fatima and the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary. He believes that the entire world will convert to Catholicism after a large miracle(s). He believes that there will then be a 1,000 year “Era of Peace” where everyone will be a Catholic, there will be worldwide peace, etc.

I pointed out that Scripture, the catechism, and numerous infallible statements clearly state that the conversion of the Jews occurs at the very end times.

He said that the Jews will be the only ones who don’t convert during the Age of Peace, but that they will convert at the end of it.

It seems to me that such a huge miracle that converts every single country on the planet to Catholicism would be QUITE an event that would remove any possibility of invincible ignorance. Therefore the Jews who live during this “Era of Peace” wouldn’t be invincibly ignorant?

 

[PietroPaolo]

To be invincibly ignorant you’d have to not know the Church was the true Church (the ignorant part) and not be able to know (the invincible part) i.e. it can’t be your fault you don’t know better. In your scenario it sounds like the person (assuming they are mentally competent) would be able to know, therefore he would not be invincibly ignorant, thus he would be culpable for not knowing the truth.

 

[kimg901]

Interesting. I was talking to someone about Fatima and the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary. He believes that the entire world will convert to Catholicism after a large miracle(s). He believes that there will then be a 1,000 year “Era of Peace” where everyone will be a Catholic, there will be worldwide peace, etc.

I pointed out that Scripture, the catechism, and numerous infallible statements clearly state that the conversion of the Jews occurs at the very end times.

He said that the Jews will be the only ones who don’t convert during the Age of Peace, but that they will convert at the end of it.

It seems to me that such a huge miracle that converts every single country on the planet to Catholicism would be QUITE an event that would remove any possibility of invincible ignorance. Therefore the Jews who live during this “Era of Peace” wouldn’t be invincibly ignorant?

I would say no for the simple fact that they are Gods Chosen People as it is written in the Bible. I may be wrong. But I think we are all praying that God is merciful.

 

[Robertanthony]

Hey all,

I’m having a discussion with another Catholic, and we’re talking about invincible ignorance. He seems to have a much different impression of it than I think what the Church actually teaches.

Let’s just use an example-- one that we were discussing.

Imagine that there was a HUGE miracle that converted the entire world to Christianity. There were miraculous crosses floating in the air; all atheism and secular institutions were done away with instantly, and all religions other than Christianity were also done away with instantly. America, Europe, Russia, China, India, and every other nation became Catholic overnight miraculously.

Now let’s say a person who was already exposed to the Gospel EVEN BEFORE the conversion of the world STILL refused to believe.

Do you think they could they still be invincibly ignorant?

I predict there would be a great rise in fervor initially but that things would quickly return to their former state. Believing in God is not an absolute, Satan believes in God and so did adam. They both messed up and went against God. I suspect “invincible ignorance” is a concept that precious few people have a good grasp of .

 

[KEP1983]

I predict there would be a great rise in fervor initially but that things would quickly return to their former state. Believing in God is not an absolute, Satan believes in God and so did adam. They both messed up and went against God. I suspect “invincible ignorance” is a concept that precious few people have a good grasp of .

Good point, and I agree. But under this “Era of Peace” view that this Catholic believes, the world really does stay devoted to God for the 1,000 years.

Somehow concupiscence and original sin don’t bring the majority of people into sin during this 1,000 year “Era of Peace.”

Strange, I know.

 

[joe371]

Hey all,

I’m having a discussion with another Catholic, and we’re talking about invincible ignorance. He seems to have a much different impression of it than I think what the Church actually teaches.

Let’s just use an example-- one that we were discussing.

Imagine that there was a HUGE miracle that converted the entire world to Christianity. There were miraculous crosses floating in the air; all atheism and secular institutions were done away with instantly, and all religions other than Christianity were also done away with instantly. America, Europe, Russia, China, India, and every other nation became Catholic overnight miraculously.

Now let’s say a person who was already exposed to the Gospel EVEN BEFORE the conversion of the world STILL refused to believe.

Do you think they could they still be invincibly ignorant?

I suppose they could claim the crosses were from aliens, and therefore refuse to believe…

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don’t believe, no proof is possible.”

 

[KEP1983]

I suppose they could claim the crosses were from aliens, and therefore refuse to believe…

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don’t believe, no proof is possible.”

haha yes, but wouldn’t that be, at best, vincible ignorance?

 

[joe371]

haha yes, but wouldn’t that be, at best, vincible ignorance?

:yup:

 

[PietroPaolo]

Good point, and I agree. But under this “Era of Peace” view that this Catholic believes, the world really does stay devoted to God for the 1,000 years.

Somehow concupiscence and original sin don’t bring the majority of people into sin during this 1,000 year “Era of Peace.”

Strange, I know.

Your friend seems intent on importing Protestant Millennialism into his Catholic worldview. The best answer to your friend is that there will not be any such “Era of Peace.” From the CCC: (emphasis added)

The Church’s ultimate trial

675 Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of **a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. **The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.

676 The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism, especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.

677 The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection. The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven. God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.

 

[benjohnson]

I suspect “invincible ignorance” is a concept that precious few people have a good grasp of .

I intentionally cultivate in myself a poor grasp of invincible ignorance. That way, I remain invincibly ignorant.

 

[Evan]

I intentionally cultivate in myself a poor grasp of invincible ignorance. That way, I remain invincibly ignorant.

If you cultivate a lack of knowledge, your ignorance is vincible. Invincible if you did not have the opportunity of increasing your knowledge.

 

[Robertanthony]

I intentionally cultivate in myself a poor grasp of invincible ignorance. That way, I remain invincibly ignorant.

We just don’t know how lax or strict God’s final judgement on each particular person is. Perhaps you can’t get much mileage on invincible ignorance, perhaps God is quick to call it voluntary blindness and point you toward the fiery pit. BTW I included myself in the “precious few”. I am a man of very modest intellect.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Hey all,

I’m having a discussion with another Catholic, and we’re talking about invincible ignorance. He seems to have a much different impression of it than I think what the Church actually teaches.

Let’s just use an example-- one that we were discussing.

Imagine that there was a HUGE miracle that converted the entire world to Christianity. There were miraculous crosses floating in the air; all atheism and secular institutions were done away with instantly, and all religions other than Christianity were also done away with instantly. America, Europe, Russia, China, India, and every other nation became Catholic overnight miraculously.

Now let’s say a person who was already exposed to the Gospel EVEN BEFORE the conversion of the world STILL refused to believe.

Do you think they could they still be invincibly ignorant?

How about a more realistic example. Christ died and was raised from the dead. Did everyone in Jerusalem converted? If people didn’t convert en masse then, I don’t see any large scale miracle convincing everyone to convert today. Also miracles are a bad way to convert people, because you only impressed them, you did not really convert them in a way that they repent of their sins and truly believe in God, that is to put all hope in Him.

 

[joe371]

How about a more realistic example. Christ died and was raised from the dead. Did everyone in Jerusalem converted? If people didn’t convert en masse then, I don’t see any large scale miracle convincing everyone to convert today. Also miracles are a bad way to convert people, because you only impressed them, you did not really convert them in a way that they repent of their sins and truly believe in God, that is to put all hope in Him.

Tell the apostle Thomas that…LOL…

 

[ConstantineTG]

Tell the apostle Thomas that…LOL…

Oh, Thomas didn’t become an atheist after Christ was resurrected. And don’t forget what Jesus told Thomas, “Blessed are those who have not seen yet have believed.” Thomas could have been a Sadducee who didn’t believe in the resurrection. Or it was just that he despaired when Christ was killed and he let go of any hope. But he wasn’t converted from no-faith to faith.

 

[joe371]

Oh, Thomas didn’t become an atheist after Christ was resurrected. And don’t forget what Jesus told Thomas, “Blessed are those who have not seen yet have believed.” Thomas could have been a Sadducee who didn’t believe in the resurrection. Or it was just that he despaired when Christ was killed and he let go of any hope. But he wasn’t converted from no-faith to faith.

No, the miracle bolstered his faith, and true repentance followed, and that was my point. The same happened to me vis-a-vis the miracle of Fatima…

 

[ConstantineTG]

No, the miracle bolstered his faith, and true repentance followed, and that was my point. The same happened to me vis-a-vis the miracle of Fatima…

I don’t know if Thomas needed to repent. He seemed to be faithful to Christ already although clearly the crucifixion shook them to their core. What I’m talking about is a non-believer being converted by a miracle. It’s hard to compare St. Thomas with an atheist. He had doubts, but he clearly wasn’t a non-believer. There is a difference between setting right the course vs. someone who isn’t even on that journey.

 

[joe371]

I don’t know if Thomas needed to repent. He seemed to be faithful to Christ already although clearly the crucifixion shook them to their core. What I’m talking about is a non-believer being converted by a miracle. It’s hard to compare St. Thomas with an atheist. He had doubts, but he clearly wasn’t a non-believer. There is a difference between setting right the course vs. someone who isn’t even on that journey.

I was merely responding to your statement below, in terms of how miracles can draw people closer to Jesus, which can lead to even stronger repentance. I am a good example e.g. my former agnostic days…

“Also miracles are a bad way to convert people, because you only impressed them, you did not really convert them in a way that they repent of their sins and truly believe in God, that is to put all hope in Him.”