"Invisible" Church theory debunked

[DeFide]

‘If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. . . . But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you. . . . If he refuses to listen . . . tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector’ (Mt 18:15-17).

The Bible is very clear to me about what to do if we have a disagreement with one another over some issue pertaining to the Faith. And please remember: To lead someone into heresy is a grievous sin against your brother according to Galatians 5:19-21! The Bible tells us that the Church, not the Bible, is the final court of appeal.

It should also be noted that implicit (perhaps even explicit) in this passage from Matthew is the fact that the “Church” must have been a visible, tangible entity established in a hierarchical fashion. Otherwise, how would anyone have known to whom the wrongdoer should be referred? If the Protestant definition of “church” were correct, then the wrongdoer would have to “hear” each and every believer who existed, hoping that there would be unanimity among them regarding the issue at hand. The inherent absurdity of this scenario is readily apparent. The only way we can make sense of Our Lord’s statement here is to acknowledge that here was a definite organization, to which an appeal could be made and from which a decisive judgment could be had.

(see also Rom. 1:5 [bringing obedience]: Through him we have received the grace of apostleship, to bring about the obedience of faith, for the sake of his name, among all the Gentiles)

 

[Chipper]

Since when do protestants follow only the bible? Well they don’t.

Jesus is the Word of God. Note word is singular.

The bible says not by bread alone but by every Word of God. Note word is singular again.

But the protestants are constantly “adding” their words to interpret the bible. In other words they hammer up scripture and make it read “every word of God and every word of the protestant”.

Yikes, i’ve been trying to get this off my chest for awhile. Hope this doesn’t derail your post.

Chip

 

[Tom]

DeFide:

the “Church” must have been a visible, tangible entity established in a hierarchical fashion. Otherwise, how would anyone have known to whom the wrongdoer should be referred?

Anyone who doubts the Church is a physical earthly entity with a hierarchy needs to review Acts.

Acts 1:1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: 3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: 4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

He remained with His Church for a sufficient time to establish it, as He wanted.

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. 9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

He sent His Church the Holy Spirit to lead it into all truth. Who was there to receive the Spirit but an organized Church? Did the Holy Spirit appear to everyone on earth at this time? If it did I’m sure we would have heard about it huh? Maybe even in Scripture. The Holy Spirit came to His Church, not to individuals.

Acts 1:13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. 14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren. 15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,) 16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. 17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. 18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. 19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood. 20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take. 21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. 23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. 24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, 25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. 26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles

This is silly, I would have to copy and paste all of Acts, how can anyone possibly read Scripture and deny Jesus established a physical Church? Just blinded by hatred I guess.

 

[DeFide]

Another aspect of this issue I’m trying to understand is how one protestant can condemn other protestant interpretations of scripture and in the same breath call all “true” (?) believers the invisible universal church.

I guess since they cannot say who these “true” believers are, since the church is invisible, they cannot even begin to carry out Mt. 18:15-17.

 

[slinky1882]

DeFide:

Another aspect of this issue I’m trying to understand is how one protestant can condemn other protestant interpretations of scripture and in the same breath call all “true” (?) believers the invisible universal church.

I guess since they cannot say who these “true” believers are, since the church is invisible, they cannot even begin to carry out Mt. 18:15-17.

Excellent point. I cannot understand whyindivduals fail to see the outcomes of the path chosen. If you beleive the Holy Spirit guides all through the Scripture alone, history has proven that at the very least this is dangerous. If one looks hard enough, one can use the Bible to legitimize a lot of stuff that the average Christian knows is wrong but cannot quite put a finger on it. Thanks and God Bless.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

DONT FORGET 1TIM3:15

15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

DONT FORGET 1Timothy3:15

15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.