Invisible Church: Why?

[happygal]

But then how do you justify not being unified with the rest of Christians? Shouldn’t a visible Church be a visibly unified Church? “Perfected in unity”, as Christ prayed?

**Ok first look at what your church is driving you towards, does we practise anything that is contradict to the bible? Also if the Church is false in teaching i believe Holy Spirit will not perform miracle via the church right. I believe what my church teaches is not incorrect because we always invite non believers to witness healing miracle as you may aware that non believers wanted evident to prove that God is real, and if nothing happened what will they think?? You can say Satan have that power too, but if that really was Satan power then i would say thk you for helping us to win more lose soul and have them receive Jesus as their savior.

For example i am staying with my parent now in a three bedroom house, when i get married i move out to have my own house. The house i have is different from my parent, in decor, furnishing, but it is still a house that provide shelter. RC are like parent house, standand and all the same, protestant are like our own house different in decor and furnishing, but no matter how you see it, it is still a house that provide shelter.

You see the more you dig into justify the spilt of protestant from catholic, the more you wanted to debate on the topic, running all possible verse from bible to prove who is right or wrong. So what is the goal?? to prove that Catholicism is correct that all (i’m not refering to you but some others) so what does that mean to God? He will be happy for us to debate on something which he never reveal into us (who is right/wrong) productive debate will make result, unproductive debate is waste of time and is not helping one another as well (don’t get me wrong i am not refering to you) i just say what i wanted to say that all…hope you don’t mind **

 

[mrs_abbott]

But Catholics across the globe manage to be united visibly. Far more so it seems than the majority of protestants.

Like I said in a previous post, there certainly is an invisble, spiritual aspect of the Church, but why to many protestants claim that’s ALL there is? Why reject the visible?

Because there’s no unity in protestantism, except for the fact that they believe in God. That is the invisible church and that’s all that matters in protestantism. They believe in Christian unity through the invisible church that Jesus established since we are all followers of Christ trying to get to Heaven to spend eternity with God. Denominations won’t matter in the end.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I don’t believe in an invisible Church as opposed to a visible one. It’s true that many Protestants do, but they learned the idea from Catholics. It seems to me that an “invisible Church” is intrinsic to Catholicism. After all, you are the ones who say that when the leaders of the Church, acting in the Church’s name, do something bad, the Church is not doing anything bad. Therefore, your Church must be invisible, because the visible Church clearly does do bad things. When Catholics say “the Church” they are rarely speaking of the actual, visible company of people. They are speaking of a mystical abstraction.

So the real question is, why do you believe in an invisible Church? And why do you try to cover up the fact?

Edwin

Hi, Interesting point Edwin. I have never thought of it that way.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Individual Christians make up the body of Christ, the church. Only God knows our hearts and who is His. Only God knows who belongs to his church. Thus it the idea of the “invisible church”.

Ephesians 5:23
… as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.

Hi,
I would agree with the above. I dont reject a visible church, because like someone said we need church buildings to fellowship with other believers and to worship Christ and for teaching. I just reject that Christ established the RCC as the One and only True Church. I dont think the CC is all wrong though. I agree with alot of their doctrine but I just think it is a bit arrogant to say they are the only way to truly know Christ. Christ said He is the way the truth and the light(or life). He didnt include only follow the RCC. We both agree Christ is the head of the church—right? We need to believe and follow Him–right?? Any church that is doing that and using the bible to do it is ok in my book. The CC being one of them
I know that seems extremely child-like but Christ did say that unless you come to me in a childlike way you will not receive the Kingdom of God(Im paraphrasing because you asked for no bible verses) We are to except our salvation with total trust just like children have total trust in their parents(until they hit a certain age )Children trust so completely usually without question.

Just my:twocents:

 

[LittleDeb]

I am hoping that Protestants will come here and shed some light for me on why they believe that Jesus created an invisible Church as opposed to a visible one.

I don’t think you are going to get satisfying answers to this question. I have asked it many times. One Church is very difficult for many people to comprehend and explain. (Catholics included.)

We know through reason that for something to be visible it must have structure and form. We as Catholics get debates from the other Christian Communities not because they want to deny a visable Church, but because they reject the structure and form of THE visable Church.

Since the structure and form of the other communities cannot stand alone they must, through reason, hold that the structure and form of The One Church, has different properties. Take for example my dear friends in the Vineyard church. I am not picking on them, they are dear and holy people. They are just a good example of the problem.

They, as local communities have structure and form. They work in close ties with others who call themselves Vineyard. But the structure of the Vineyard church is not strong enough to withstand the weight of all Christians. So they also work in loose ties with other Christian communities who do not share all of their same beliefs. This is where their individual invisible church theory comes in. Either they must hold that The Church is invisible or they must reject the Christianity of other Faith Communities.

The visible Church has structure and form. The invisible church does not. From my experience, extensive travel or moving around a lot tends to bring this issue to the forefront. Many times, one will either embrace One visible Church or reject all churches based on disunity.

Those who believe in a visible Church tend to come from large denominations. Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, etc…

 

[mrs_abbott]

Hi,
I would agree with the above. I dont reject a visible church, because like someone said we need church buildings to fellowship with other believers and to worship Christ and for teaching. I just reject that Christ established the RCC as the One and only True Church. I dont think the CC is all wrong though. I agree with alot of their doctrine but I just think it is a bit arrogant to say they are the only way to truly know Christ. Christ said He is the way the truth and the light(or life). He didnt include only follow the RCC. We both agree Christ is the head of the church—right? We need to believe and follow Him–right?? Any church that is doing that and using the bible to do it is ok in my book. The CC being one of them
I know that seems extremely child-like but Christ did say that unless you come to me in a childlike way you will not receive the Kingdom of God(Im paraphrasing because you asked for no bible verses) We are to except our salvation with total trust just like children have total trust in their parents(until they hit a certain age )Children trust so completely usually without question.

Just my:twocents:

:yup: I agree!!!

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I guess I have to say that I’m not really sure what this debate is about. There are many aspects of Catholicism which likewise agree with Protestantism that there is indeed an invisible aspect to our worship.

While it is certain that we don’t agree on all aspects regarding that which is visible and invisible, it is indeed also certain that many Catholics like myself have been taught that a sacrament for example is: “An outward and visible sign of an inward and invisible grace.”

This is a phrase that, as many here know, goes at least back to St Augustine. As the Bishop of Hippo in North Africa, he lived from around circa 350 to circa 430 – and was so influential in western Christian thinking that during the Protestant Reformation, both sides appealed to him.

 

[flameburns623]

The short answer to the question is that it is a straw man criticism created by Roman Catholic apologists which does not adequately express what Protestants really believe. Protestants do NOT believe in an invisible Church in the sense that Catholic critics mean it. Protestants believe that the visible Church is found wherever God’s Elect are found, most especially wherever two or three of God’s people are found gathered in the Name of Christ. What Protestants reject is the idea of a visible institutional hierarchy.

 

[Lillith]

Catholics believe in both a visible Church, which Jesus Christ is the head, and an Invisible Church, which is every person who has a Valid Baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Just as Jesus had a real physical Body, and Spiritual Body, so does the Church that he founded (Catholic thought)

What Protestants believe is that the Church is only a Spiritual Body of Believers. In this way, Jesus’ prayer of Unity is truth…there is one Body, one Head (Jesus), One Church…and they are still, as much as it might drive one nuts when a Catholic says it…part of the Body of Christ…the Catholic Church (obvious Catholic thought)

 

[Lillith]

I guess I have to say that I’m not really sure what this debate is about. There are many aspects of Catholicism which likewise agree with Protestantism that there is indeed an invisible aspect to our worship.

While it is certain that we don’t agree on all aspects regarding that which is visible and invisible, it is indeed also certain that many Catholics like myself have been taught that a sacrament for example is: “An outward and visible sign of an inward and invisible grace.”

This is a phrase that, as many here know, goes at least back to St Augustine. As the Bishop of Hippo in North Africa, he lived from around circa 350 to circa 430 – and was so influential in western Christian thinking that during the Protestant Reformation, both sides appealed to him.

Ummmm…your beige is…invisisble

 

[mrs_abbott]

Ummmm…your beige is…invisisble

If you select his post, you can read what he wrote.

 

[Steadfast]

I’d be more than happy to interact further with any of you on the subject…

My answer wasn’t particularly sexy or divisive, but I flatter myself it was complete and correct.

 

[ABalch]

It was his invisible response to the question about the invisible church

 

[Mickey]

Christ’s Church does have an invisible quality in that it is his Mystical Body on earth. But to understand the Church as having no visibility at all - and, as a consequence, no authority at all - conjures up a Church as tenuous as feathers in the wind.
catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9301fea2.asp

 

[mrs_abbott]

It was his invisible response to the question about the invisible church

Clever!

 

[Saint_Augustin]

I am hoping that Protestants will come here and shed some light for me on why they believe that Jesus created an invisible Church as opposed to a visible one.
What I want is an explanation in your own words of what you believe about this and why. The logical reasons.

An invisible Church is the best argument to hide the embarrassment for the 35,000+ protestant denominations. However, we the Catholics, should also admit that the Church (the Saints) in Heaven is invisible. In brief, the Church is both visible and invisible.

 

[Katholikos]

History should put an end to this argument, but for Protestants it never does. They MUST believe in an invisible church in order to claim that there is unity among them and to console themselves that they belong to the one church Christ was clearly talking about in the NT, and not just one of the thousands of conflicting Protestant denominations. But, He was talking about His Church – the Catholic Church – the only Church with a 2,000-year provenance.

Doctrines can be dated. The doctrine of the “invisible church” was invented by Martin Luther in the 16th century. The Apostles never taught it; therefore they never learned it from Jesus. It is a man-made doctrine.

Peace to all, Katholikos
Ex-Southern Baptist, agnostic, atheist

 

[Steadfast]

History should put an end to this argument, but for Protestants it never does. They MUST believe in an invisible church in order to claim that there is unity among them and to console themselves that they belong to the one church Christ was clearly talking about in the NT, and not just one of the thousands of conflicting Protestant denominations. But, He was talking about His Church – the Catholic Church – the only Church with a 2,000-year provenance.

Doctrines can be dated. The doctrine of the “invisible church” was invented by Martin Luther in the 16th century. The Apostles never taught it; therefore they never learned it from Jesus. It is a man-made doctrine.

Peace to all, Katholikos
Ex-Southern Baptist, agnostic, atheist

You’re grandstanding.

Why don’t you tell us what you think it means and then tell us why it’s wrong rather than expostulating about it? Or better yet, tell us what Luther meant by it since you’ve seen fit to drag him into the conversation, and then tell us why he was wrong other than just the fact that he was Luther.

 

[Katholikos]

You’re grandstanding.

Why don’t you tell us what you think it means and then tell us why it’s wrong rather than expostulating about it? Or better yet, tell us what Luther meant by it since you’ve seen fit to drag him into the conversation, and then tell us why he was wrong other than just the fact that he was Luther.

Let’s see: #1. The invisible church means you can’t see it. #2. Luther meant that it was invisible. He said all “true believers” belonged to it. #3. He was wrong because the invisible church doesn’t exist. Christ and His Apostles didn’t teach it. Luther made it up.

Peace to all, Katholikos
ex-Southern Baptist, ex-member of the invisible church, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, “ex-static” to be Catholic!

 

[Steadfast]

Let’s see: #1. The invisible church means you can’t see it. #2. Luther meant that it was invisible. He said all “true believers” belonged to it. #3. He was wrong because the invisible church doesn’t exist. Christ and His Apostles didn’t teach it. Luther made it up.

Peace to all, Katholikos
ex-Southern Baptist, ex-member of the invisible church, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, “ex-static” to be Catholic!

QED: You have no credibility.