Invisible Church

[Joanna]

Maccabees:

The church in the bible is clearly one visible church that declared unfied dcontrine had unified church councils and so forth…

The church in the Bible sopke for Christ and declared doctrine for not only its members but to the angels in heave. Now thats the power to bind and loose.

Ephesians 3
8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9and to make all see what is the fellowship1] of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;2] 10to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places,…

Jesus told the aposltes to go into the world and preach and teach them all things not some essential things…

Maccabees,

I have to thank you. I just finished reading Ephesians 3 slowly. I know I have read it many times before but truly its power escaped me. I never noticed the part that reads, “so that the manifold wisdom of of God might now be made known through the church **to the principalities and authorities in the heavens.” **

I went on to read Paul’s prayer, “For this reason I kneel before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, that He may grant you in accord with the riched of His glory to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in the inner self, and that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, rooted and grounded** in love**, may have strength to comprehend with all the holy ones what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and** to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge**, so that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.”

That Prayer has always spoken to my heart, now all the more.

God created each of us, giving us life; yet each of us came into this life that God gives us through a unique mother. Just as a mother may have children who at times are at odds with the mother and with its siblings, they are no less children of the unique mother. I think the life of the Church is like that (as we descend down through the ages.) Still God is Father of all.

I must leave the rest to the plan and action of God through the Holy Spirit of Christ, hoping our love will surpass our knowledge in the end. When faced with the Enemy, I profoundly hope we cling not only to God but to each other for the common defense and glory of God.

 

[Maccabees]

Juxtaposer:

For some reason I thought you were talking about the OT Church.

Well that is a quite a cop out to the obvious meanings of the text provided.
For one thing their is no such thing as Old Testament Church.
THe word church is never mentioned in the Old Testament ever.

In the New Testament it is always referenced to one authoratative church singular in its doctrine and authority. You see the aposltles holding a council to settle a dsipute they declare doctrine and case is closed. Each aposlte does not start his denomination according to his own opinions disputes are settled together.

 

[mercygate]

Juxtaposer:

For arguments’s sake, let’s just pretend that the Catholic Church is in fact the true Church, and hence, the Kingdom of God on Earth. Then we must also say that not all who are in the Catholic Church are in this Kingdom, and many who are not in the Catholic Church are in this Kingdom.
/QUOTE]

Nice work, Juxtaposer, but I would nuance your case a little. A Catholic would not claim that because the Catholic Church is the true Church that it is, therefore, the Kingdom of God on Earth. The Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ to carry out his work of bringing the Kingdom about. I would posit that those who are in the Kingdom **are **in the Catholic Church – whether they know it or not. The entity which I call “the corporation” is necessary, Christ-founded, and true because, just as Christ assumed a physical, material body in the Incarnation, so his Church requires a physical material body to carry out his mission. But the physical body identified as the Catholic Church is only part of the picture.

 

[mercygate]

Juxtaposer:

So should I be asking God how the grace that I receive comes through the Catholic Church and not directly through Him?

You are very close, Juxtaposer. Insofar as the Church is Christ’s foundation for transmitting his gospel, it is the privileged place for the communication of grace: “Receive the Holy Spirit” he said to the apostles . . . If the Church – not just the spiritual entity in Heaven and earth but “the corporation” – is the earthly Body of Christ, and if all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Christ to send apostles to make disciples of all nations, baptizing them and teaching them to observe his commands (Mt. 28), then it is unreasonable that the Church, his Church, should not be the privileged communicator of grace. Does that mean the ONLY way grace is received is through the Church? Quite possibly, if you take a very broad view of the Church. But, grace is clearly poured out upon people who are not members of the visible Catholic Church.

Does grace completely dry up among the separated brethren of the Great Schism or the Reformation? Not completely. Since when does the Holy Spirit stay in the house? But the promise was that the fullness would remain at the center.

The day I figured out that the visible Catholic Church is, on earth, the center-point, the privileged place of witness, founded and graced by Christ to be his Body in earth, was a milestone in my conversion. I reasoned, from my knowledge of history rather than of theology, that if Christ established the Catholic Church, then I needed to be in it, not out of it. I asked him to do whatever it would take to break down the barriers between my heart and his Church. And he did.

 

[Genuflecter]

Juxtaposer:

By the Protestant view of the invisible Church we are not necessarily divided temporally. We are all still in the Body of Christ, it’s just that this body isn’t exclusively the Catholic Church.

I’m a little confused. What kind of unity are you talking about? What do you believe it means to be united temporarily? It seems your referring to some kind of mystical temporal unity. United even though we’re divided.

Juxtaposer:

The only reformer that didn’t want a schism that I can think of is Martin Luther. The others, especially Zwingli, did in fact want to break away.

This is not what I’ve heard. I’ve come across the contrary many times, mostly from apologists and authors. If you have actual proof from the writings of the reformers, saying they wanted to or didnt’ want to split away, that would be helpful. To be honest, I’d be interested in seeing something like that for myself. However, things can be misinterpreted and a person can think someone’s saying something they’re not.

 

[Joanna]

Genuflecter:

I’m a little confused. What kind of unity are you talking about? What do you believe it means to be united temporarily? It seems your referring to some kind of mystical temporal unity. United even though we’re divided.

God, too, must be scratching HIs head, thinking, “When will they get it?” “Unity” means “unity”, of one heart and one mind. All for one and one for all.

 

[mercygate]

Genuflecter:

I’m What do you [Juxtaposer] believe it means to be united temporarily?

Juxtaposer’s word was “temporally.”

 

[Joanna]

mercygate:

Juxtaposer’s word was “temporally.”

Whether it’s “temporally”, as Juxtaposer did in fact pose, or temporarily, we in the Body of Christ whether Catholic or Protestant still fall far short of “the unity which has the Spirit as its origin and peace as its binding force.” (Ephesians 4: 3)

Since God’s vision is: **“There is but one Body and one Spirit, just as there is but one hope given all of you by your call. There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and works through all and is in all. (Ephesians 4: 4-5)”, **the seed I would like to plant springs out of my reasoning this way:

Wouldn’t is be prudent to see things God’s way and not settle for clever explanations as to how His divided church is still one somehow. In the hope He has** “given all of you by your call”**, shouldn’t we humbly pray with all our hearts, “Father make us one even as You are One.” If our prayer is as frequent and as fervent as our arguments and protestations (even in this forum), I believe heaven would be happy to heal our divisions and allow us the privilege of living His vision “on earth as it is in heaven.”

 

[Genuflecter]

mercygate:

Juxtaposer’s word was “temporally.”

Yes, I know that. I spelled temporally wrong and my spell checker changed it to temporarily. I didn’t even notice.

 

[Genuflecter]

Joanna:

Wouldn’t is be prudent to see things God’s way and not settle for clever explanations as to how His divided church is still one somehow. In the hope He has** “given all of you by your call”**, shouldn’t we humbly pray with all our hearts, “Father make us one even as You are One.” If our prayer is as frequent and as fervent as our arguments and protestations (even in this forum), I believe heaven would be happy to heal our divisions and allow us the privilege of living His vision “on earth as it is in heaven.”

Also think of this. Can being temporally divided in our understanding and disconnected in our practice, cause a disunity in the mystical Body of Christ? If truth is given to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and we do not live by that truth, what do we live by? When we live by the flesh, rather than the Spirit of God, we damage or sever our relationship with God. And it is in our entirety that we are broken. After all, it is our soul that is purified in purgatory. How can we be mystically united if we are separating ourselves from God and our souls are being compromised? How can we be united at all, if not by the power of God acting in us? That is to say, if we are not united in truth? So I ask, can sin upon our soul prevent us from being united in the mystical Body of Christ.

No it cannot, because we cannot undo what God has done. In baptism we are adopted into God’s family. In the mystical sense, all baptized Christians are kindred spirits, united to one another and bound not by our own doing, but by the grace of God.

Please feel free to correct me if I’m improperly paraphrasing the teachings of the Church. I’m still learning you know.

 

[Joanna]

Genuflecter:

Also think of this. Can being temporally divided in our understanding and disconnected in our practice, cause a disunity in the mystical Body of Christ? If truth is given to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and we do not live by that truth, what do we live by? When we live by the flesh, rather than the Spirit of God, we damage or sever our relationship with God. And it is in our entirety that we are broken. After all, it is our soul that is purified in purgatory. How can we be mystically united if we are separating ourselves from God and our souls are being compromised? How can we be united at all, if not by the power of God acting in us? That is to say, if we are not united in truth? So I ask, can sin upon our soul prevent us from being united in the mystical Body of Christ.

No it cannot, because we cannot undo what God has done. In baptism we are adopted into God’s family. In the mystical sense, all baptized Christians are kindred spirits, united to one another and bound not by our own doing, but by the grace of God.

Please feel free to correct me if I’m improperly paraphrasing the teachings of the Church. I’m still learning you know.

I’d say that the Roman Catholic Church in it’s members has done some bad stuff historically and in present times ( priestly scandals involving covering up for pedophil priests, etc.), however the Church remains holy because Christ our head is holy and He keeps drawing us to holiness by His mercy, grace and through His Spirit. That, however, doesn’t negate our need to admonish sinners and even chastise them. It also makes it all the more necessary that we pray unceasingly for the whole Body that we become holy so as to be truly united with our Head, Jesus Christ. We should be striving to be perfect or, at least, perfected by desire and the fires God allows to try us.

I’m with you in not knowing how my reasoning measures up to the sage council of the Church.

 

[Jehu13]

If you guys want to a book that deals with the Invisble church theory? I would Suggest Catholic Controversy by St Francis de Sales. It is a Tan Book.I think St Francis is amazing some of the things he says.