Invisible or Visible church

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defenderoftruth

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Hi I started a thread in the family life forum called “Husband won’t let me convert” if you want more background on me and my situation.

I’ve started this thread here because I’ve come to the conclusion that if it’s a baptist and a Catholic arguing it’s going to come down to sola scriptura but in my situation my husband is Continuing Anglican (high church Anglo-“catholic”) and it comes down to “invisible or visible church” with him.

I believe visible…he believes invisible that true Christians are those in sacramental churches that love and follow Christ. (they must believe in the real presence-he doesn’t believe transubstantiation but “mystery” and baptism for remission of sins)

He’s big on reading the early church; now what I see as obviously a visible church with bishops and The Apostolic See he sees it as they are united in spirit and a invisible church where only God knows who’s the body of Christ opposed to the visible church being the body of Christ with tares among the wheat.

Does anyone know of any really good books PROVING the visible church that’s not just a conversion story but actual quotes etc.?

I need help because as long as he’s stuck on an invisible church we’ll have problems.

DoT
 
The book you need is St. Thomas More’s Dialogue Concerning Heresies, rendered into Modern English by Mary Gottschalk (Scepter, 2006). It is lucid, readable, hard-hitting with a touch of humor, and deals at length with precisely your question about the visible versus invisible Church.
 
IMO, it is both. The church is not confined to one church but all true believers which are part of many church groups that are Christian, not in name but in fact.
 
Matthew 5:14
“You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden.”

One scriptural back up for a visible church that first popped into my mind…

Ephesians 5:8-13
“For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) and find out what pleases the Lord. Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. But everything exposed by the light becomes visible, for it is light that makes everything visible.”
 
Try these:

St. Augustine:
And so, brethren, let us hasten in the way, because we are Christian Catholics, which is the one Church of God, as was foretold in the Holy Scriptures. For it was not God’s Will that she be hidden; that no one might plead this as excuse. It was foretold that she would be established throughout the whole earth; and she has been mad visible to the whole earth. Nor should we falter because there are heresies and schisms innumerable: it should trouble us more if there were not; for they too have been foretold.
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The Sunday Sermons of the Great Fathers, (4 Volume Set), M. F. Toal, Thomas, San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 2000, ISBN 0898707978, vol. 4, p. 404.
The Church then of the saints is the Catholic Church The Church of the saints is not the Church of heretics. The Church of the saints is that which God first prefigured before it was seen and then set forth that it might be seen. The Church of the saints was heretofore in writings now it is in nations, the Church of the saints was heretofore only read of now it is both read of and seen. When it was only read of it was believed now it is seen and is spoken against.
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Augustine, Expositions on the Book of Psalms

Might also want to see my post on the Sinners prayer and Augustine.

And more generally, St. Basil on Sacred Tradition:
But it is against the faith they make war. The common aim of all our adversaries, and of all who are contrary to sound doctrine, (1 Tim. 1:10), is to overthrow the foundations of the Faith of Christ, by leveling the Apostolic Traditions to the earth and wholly destroying them.
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So like debtors, good debtors of course, they demand proof, written proof, from the Sacred Writings, and dismiss, as wholly unworthy of believe, the unwritten witness of the Fathers.
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St. Basil the Great, Bishop and Doctor, Pentecost sermon On the Holy Spirit.

The Sunday Sermons of the Great Fathers, Volume 1, 1996, M. F. Toal, ISBN 0898707935, pp. 9-10
 
defenderoftruth said:
Hi I started a thread in the family life forum called “Husband won’t let me convert” if you want more background on me and my situation.

I’ve started this thread here because I’ve come to the conclusion that if it’s a baptist and a Catholic arguing it’s going to come down to sola scriptura but in my situation my husband is Continuing Anglican (high church Anglo-“catholic”) and it comes down to “invisible or visible church” with him.

I believe visible…he believes invisible that true Christians are those in sacramental churches that love and follow Christ. (they must believe in the real presence-he doesn’t believe transubstantiation but “mystery” and baptism for remission of sins)

He’s big on reading the early church; now what I see as obviously a visible church with bishops and The Apostolic See he sees it as they are united in spirit and a invisible church where only God knows who’s the body of Christ opposed to the visible church being the body of Christ with tares among the wheat.

Does anyone know of any really good books PROVING the visible church that’s not just a conversion story but actual quotes etc.?

I need help because as long as he’s stuck on an invisible church we’ll have problems.

DoT
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Your husband is pretty close to what is the right belief, because the True Church is one that is bounded by the Spirit and not what is seen by our earthly eyes.

Jesus said “I know my sheep and they know me”. So what makes anyone (especially if they’re not of the fold) think that they know who is and who is not of the fold??? Because if it were visible, everyone would know.

But because it isn’t, God only knows. What you can see then, is not the church.

The church is spirit just like God is spirit. All who worship God must worship God in Spirit and in Truth.
 
raumzeitmc2 said:
Try these:

St. Augustine:

The Sunday Sermons of the Great Fathers, (4 Volume Set), M. F. Toal, Thomas, San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 2000, ISBN 0898707978, vol. 4, p. 404.

Augustine, Expositions on the Book of Psalms

Might also want to see my post on the Sinners prayer and Augustine.

And more generally, St. Basil on Sacred Tradition:

St. Basil the Great, Bishop and Doctor, Pentecost sermon On the Holy Spirit.

The Sunday Sermons of the Great Fathers, Volume 1, 1996, M. F. Toal, ISBN 0898707935, pp. 9-10
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But Augustine also distinguishes between the the true and mixed body of Christ or the mixed Church and the true Church. The mixed Church includes all who claim to be members while the true Church are those who will be with Jesus in eternity. He recognizes that the word church in Scripture has more than one meaning.
  1. The second rule is about the twofold division of the body of the Lord; but this indeed is not a suitable name, for that **is really no part of the body of Christ which will not be with Him in eternity. We ought, therefore, to say that the rule is about the true and the mixed body of the Lord, or the true and the counterfeit, or some such name; **because, not to speak of eternity, hypocrites cannot even now be said to be in Him, although they seem to be in His Church. And hence this rule might be designated thus: Concerning the mixed Church. Now this rule requires the reader to be on his guard when Scripture, although it has now come to address or speak of a different set of persons, seems to be addressing or speaking of the same persons as before, just as if both sets constituted one body in consequence of their being for the time united in a common participation of the sacraments.
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Augustine (On Christian Doctrine, 3:32)
newadvent.org/fathers/12023.htm
But the enemies of this brotherly love, whether they are openly without, or appear to be within, are false Christians, and antichrists. For when they have found an opportunity, they go out, as it is written: “A man wishing to separate himself from his friends, seeks opportunities.” But even if occasions are wanting, while they seem to be within, they are severed from that invisible bond of love. Whence St. John says, “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for had they been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us.” He does not say that they ceased to be of us by going out, but that they went out because they were not of us
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Augustine (On Baptism, Against the Donatists, 3:19:26)
newadvent.org/fathers/14083.htm

A Protestant would say there are now many visible churches while the true church is made up of all believers. Unless you can tell for sure what someone else truly believes, you can never tell if someone is a member of the true Church or body of Christ.
 
SyCarl said:
A Protestant would say there are now many visible churches while the true church is made up of all believers. Unless you can tell for sure what someone else truly believes, you can never tell if someone is a member of the true Church or body of Christ.
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So how do you tell heretical churches apart from the true Church??
 
Invisible!! God is going to save his children, regardless of there biblical opinions.
There are many churches opened in Gods name, they are all dependent on The Spirit for guidance. The thought that they all teach differently is false, most teach the exact same about Jesus. Many churches claim to have more knowledge then others but the truth is that know one knows it all. Trust Christ and not men with titles.
 
RedSoxFan said:
Avery Dulles Models of the Church might be useful.

amazon.com/Models-Church-Avery-Dulles/dp/0385133685/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1275358782&sr=1-1

And if It’s just a waste of time I will apologize as I haven’t read this one yet. I’ve only heard about it (all of which was positive).
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Red, thanks for the reference. I’ll be sure to check it out. Some of Dulles’ book is also online at Google Books here.

But I would just note that Scripture teaches unambiguously that the Roman Church is the true Church, and that it has an important destiny to fulfill. See my post here.
 
Lumen Gentium talks about the relationship between the visible and invisible church:
  1. Christ, the one Mediator, established and continually sustains here on earth His holy Church, the community of faith, hope and charity, as an entity with visible delineation (9*) through which He communicated truth and grace to all. But, the society structured with hierarchical organs and the Mystical Body of Christ, are not to be considered as two realities, nor are the visible assembly and the spiritual community, nor the earthly Church and the Church enriched with heavenly things; rather they form one complex reality which coalesces from a divine and a human element.(10*) For this reason, by no weak analogy, it is compared to the mystery of the incarnate Word. As the assumed nature inseparably united to Him, serves the divine Word as a living organ of salvation, so, in a similar way, does the visible social structure of the Church serve the Spirit of Christ, who vivifies it, in the building up of the body.(73) (11*)
This is the one Church of Christ which in the Creed is professed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic, (12*) which our Saviour, after His Resurrection, commissioned Peter to shepherd,(74) and him and the other apostles to extend and direct with authority,(75) which He erected for all ages as “the pillar and mainstay of the truth”.(76) This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him,(13*) although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward catholic unity.
 
defenderoftruth said:
Hi I started a thread in the family life forum called “Husband won’t let me convert” if you want more background on me and my situation.

I’ve started this thread here because I’ve come to the conclusion that if it’s a baptist and a Catholic arguing it’s going to come down to sola scriptura but in my situation my husband is Continuing Anglican (high church Anglo-“catholic”) and it comes down to “invisible or visible church” with him.

I believe visible…he believes invisible that true Christians are those in sacramental churches that love and follow Christ. (they must believe in the real presence-he doesn’t believe transubstantiation but “mystery” and baptism for remission of sins)

He’s big on reading the early church; now what I see as obviously a visible church with bishops and The Apostolic See he sees it as they are united in spirit and a invisible church where only God knows who’s the body of Christ opposed to the visible church being the body of Christ with tares among the wheat.

Does anyone know of any really good books PROVING the visible church that’s not just a conversion story but actual quotes etc.?

I need help because as long as he’s stuck on an invisible church we’ll have problems.

DoT
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Hi Defender of Truth,

Nobody accepts “proof” against their own will. But since you asked, I lean toward the thought that the Scriptures emphasizing church discipline imply a united visible ecclesiastical community. Hebrews instructs that we must “Obey your prelates, and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief.” (Heb. 13:17)

We have to identify those rulers in the government of the Church to whom we are to be subjected in humility. I suppose one who is so inclined can argue that our Lord established His Kingdom in such a manner that we are free to pick and choose among competing ministers who do not cooperate in ecclesiastical discipline. If that is God’s plan we seem to be less than “subject to them” (the prelates/rulers), and merely following our own preferences.

When I began to take this passage seriously I was Protestant. It seemed to me that it implied a universal government in the Church for all Christians. But none of the Protestant churches seemed inclined to want to accept the role assigned to them in Hebrews 13. They were unwilling to say that they were the one true visible church. They were unwilling to identify themselves as the rulers to whom I ought to be subject, of whom the Letter to the Hebrews is speaking.

If any church declines to admit that they are the one true church, why should I submit to them? “I might as well be my own ruler,” I reasoned. I actually started my own church in 1985 and pastored it until 1992 so I know a little about that. I suppose I came across as pretty audacious as a little pastor with a little church claiming to have rule over anybody. But it is either this plan where people can choose their rulers or we are restricted in our choices. The Catholics and Orthodox claimed to be in a straight line with prelates reaching back to the Apostles saying that I could not be my own ruler. And so I chose from those two as the likeliest candidates to fill the role which is necessitated by Heb. 13. I joined the Catholic Church in 1995.
 
RoryMcKenzie56 said:
Hi Defender of Truth,

Nobody accepts “proof” [of truth] against their own will.
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AMEN TO THAT!!! Truer words were never written.

Indeed, such is the battleground: Truth vs. One’s [personal] Will.

This is a bit of a tangent, but here’s the reason why many of us (of different demoninations) argue amongst each other when presented with a different “truth” about God that’s opposed to our established mode of thinking. We place our will over [or above] any possibility of receiving a “new piece of revelation” from God other than through the channels WE deem valid…but God can use anything and anyone to share his truth, right? And indeed HAS used anything and anyone whenever He needed to, correct?
  • He used a bush during the time of Moses…
  • He used a lowly shepherd-boy in David…
  • Christ said (when speaking against silencing the crowd’s praise for him as he rode on the donkey), “If necessary even the rock will cry out” [luke 16:40], showing he was willing to use rocks…
  • He even used a murdering Pharisee in Saul [now Paul] to spread his truth.
Truly, none of us can claim to have the full truth, can we? So what makes any of us - religious authority (whether Catholic or Non-Catholic), religious scolars, etc. - credible to authorize the only channels through which God spreads his truth (because this is the real underlying question of this thread)?

I ask this because who’s to say that “defenderoftruth’s” husband is wrong, as it relates to her current level of understanding as far as “The Church”? Why wouldn’t her husband be correct? Why must the arbitrator of “truth” be a well known [and I use the phrase “well known” because there are MANY religous scolars on both sides that are just not as celebrated] “celebrity” of the faith? Why do they have more credibility (or athority) just because they have a larger following? What more authority do they have other than someone who has studied as long? What if her husband has studied as long as any of these “well knowns”? Is truth established by the “number of people” who agree with it, or is truth established by God alone?

The Body of Christ is made up of different…DIFFERENT parts. As such it would seem logical and wise that each part - subsequent to its unique role to play within the body - has a different “piece” of the truth. We’re charged with “bringing all of the pieces together” and yet we’re too busy arguing that “our piece” is the “complete truth” or that “your truth is not valid because I didn’t receive it through the channels in which I received my truth”.
The Kingdom of God is like 4 blind brothers lost in a desert who found a gentle elephant. They were dying of thirst and the Elephant was on his way to an oasis full of water just as soon as they hopped on him. Never meeting an elephant before, each touched the elephant believing they knew what was in front of them:

The Tail - “This beast is skinny and long like a rope. I am right.”
The Trunk - “No! This beast is thick and slinky like a snake. I am right.”
The Leg - “You’re both wrong. This thing is strong and tall like a tree trunk. I’m right.”
The Ear - “I beg to differ. This animal is like a flowing blanket. I am right.”

The four bickered amongst each other until the elephant let out a loud call and walked away, leaving the four to die in the desert.

Was each one right? Yes. But none of them were able to see the full image of their salvation because they were not willing to humble themselves and accept that (maybe) they’re not “complete” in the truth they hold; that (maybe) their other family have pieces of truth that they can’t grasp.
 
***Does anyone know of any really good books PROVING the visible church that’s not just a conversion story but actual quotes etc.?

I need help because as long as he’s stuck on an invisible church we’ll have problems.***

Sorry protestants/non catholics I’m not looking for your opinion or why you think that’s it’s invisible, sorry but you’re wrong what I am looking for is CATHOLICS (this is catholic.com) to give me some good ideas. I will look into the St. Thomas More book sounds like a winner, I also agree with the poster that I can’t will or force him into the correct view he’ll see it when or if he’s ready but I wouldn’t mind having some ammo when he attacks the Church.

DoT
 
defenderoftruth said:
I will look into the St. Thomas More book sounds like a winner…
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DoT: when it comes to solid apologetics, you can’t go wrong with St. Thomas More, and Dialogue Concerning Heresies is first-rate. He goes point by point through the arguments about the “invisible church” (amongst many other errors) and demolishes them. He brings so much wisdom and learning and clarity to his subject that when he lays out the Catholic case, he makes it seem obvoius; makes me think, “Dang, I should have thought of that!” But I didn’t think of it, because I lack the wisdom that comes with great personal sanctity such as St. Thomas More’s.

By the way, as a side note (though not part of this thread), I also highly recommend Dialogue of Comfort against Tribulation, about the Christian approach to suffering and tribulation. He wrote it while imprisoned in the Tower of London, awaiting execution.
 
defenderoftruth said:
***…

I need help because as long as he’s stuck on an invisible church we’ll have problems.***…
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Christ’s Church, which He founded before He ascended into heaven, soon became visible to the whole world (as they knew it) because the apostles preached its gospel throughout the whole known world during their own lifetimes:

Romans 1:8
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Acts 2:4-6
And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. 6 6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language.

Jews from every nation (the whole known world) heard the apostles preach in each Jew’s own dialect. This was a miracle from God so that they would be persuaded to convert to the one Catholic (catholic means universal) Christian Church which is the fulfillment of the Jewish worship (which became obsolete when Jesus made His New Covenant). Hebrews 8:13 This Church was a very visible Church and was known throughout the whole known world in that time period and this visibility remains today and will remain until Jesus returns at His Second Coming.

The word “Catholic” was used to describe the universality of the Church already before the second century:

Ignatius, the third bishop of Antioch, wrote to the Church in Smyrna around 107 A.D. - 110A.D.:
“Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there, just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”[Epistle to the Smyrneans 8:2.].
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This title “Catholic” was in use before he wrote this letter because he does not take the time to explain its meaning in his epistle.

One faith, one baptism, one Lord.

Ephesians 4:4-6
There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

One true faith only. It’s doctrine is protected by the Holy Spirit who prevents this Church from teaching error since Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would guide His one Church into all truth.

John 16:13
However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

Jesus promised that He would be with His one Church ALWAYS until He returned at His Second Coming (end of the age). If He is with His Church, then it cannot possibly teach error. If it did, then Jesus would be a liar and this we know is impossible.

Matthew 28:19-20
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

He commanded His apostles and disciples and those whom they appoint to go throughout the whole world and baptize persons (which makes them His disciples) and He commanded His apostles to teach these new disciples to do all the things that He commanded them regarding faith (doctrine), life, etc.

All persons must be taught the truth from those who already know it and understand it. They are not supposed to pick up a Bible and interpret it for themselves or listen to people who have not been taught by His one Church. Everyone must be taught the correct interpretation or he/she will be led astray.

2 Timothy 2:2
And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

2 Peter 3:15-17
Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;

Galatians 1:6-7
I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.

Those persons who (deliberately) preach a different gospel, other than the one that Jesus and His apostles and disciples taught, are accursed.

Galatians 1:6-9
I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

Other faiths, which depart from this one faith (one gospel) instituted by Christ and entrusted to His Church which is known by the office of Peter within it, do not have the full truth although many do have partial truth and are attached to the true Church in an incomplete manner.
Matthew 16:17-19
 
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