Inviting atheists to the faith

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I start with Natural Law.

Specifically, most modern atheists hold to the concept of ‘human rights’. Likewise, most have no logical basis for the concept.

It is certainly not genetic, there is no ‘gene’ that causes human rights. And if it is a human development, then it then falls to humans to define it, and humans can change it. Humans could vote, for example to make slavery a human right.

Modern atheism is really more of a ‘feels good’ atheism, rather than the though out atheism of Nietzsche and Sartre.
From my own perspective, natural law would be one of the worst starting points. Maybe I’m in the minority but my atheist friends are well educated in philosophy and can blow all sorts of holes in natural law. I *still *struggle with it myself.
How to evangelise atheists? Easy.

Evangelist: “You know you will one day die?”
Atheist: “Yes”
Evangelist: “What do you think comes after?”

If they say “nothing”, then you counter with all the reports of survival after death, from time immemorial.
But of course it’s easy to then note the specious quality of many such stories.

If one wants to evangelize atheists, I’d say abandoning language is a good start. Christians who inspire are those who are Christ in action to those around them. The Holy Spirit moves in the absence of our speech.
 
The secular world around us is packed full of atheists, some of them actively hostile to us, some of them apathetic towards us, some of them seeing us as well-meaning but misguided.

We are called to spread the Good News and evangelise, but how do we evangelise atheists? Talking about Scripture, Heaven and Hell, Church teachings, or even God to an atheist would seem to be pointless, as he’s likely to just think we’re talking superstitious mumbo-jumbo, close his ears and walk away.

So how do we reach these people in a way that will engage them and make them willing to listen, and put them on a path that will eventually lead them to Heaven? I’d be interested to hear people’s views on this.
I think the best way is to engage them in virtue ethics. Moral law and all that.

Even though an atheist may claim to be a relativist, in reality, no moral person is a relativist. Anyone with any sense of moral clarity will see that there are indeed moral absolutes.

And from there it’s not that great a leap to understanding that there is a Moral Lawgiver.
 
I don’t accept that. They have souls, we HAVE TO find a way. It is difficult, but it cannot be impossible. Perhaps as EnglishRedRose has said, we need to show by example how we live our lives and how we reach out and care for the world around us. Most Atheists respect kindness and care towards others. If they can see us reaching out and helping it may lead some to think, “Wow, those are really good people, what drives them to do that?”. Or we approach it from their respect for science as has also been suggested. But we cannot throw in the towel and give up on them.

Surely the process of evangelisation begins before this? An atheist admitting the possibility of God might in some cases be a victory for evangelisation that started well before this.

I would agree with you on that.

That may be the case in the USA, but in the UK there are a lot more than 10% who are true atheists. It is a very atheistic culture here. On the 2011 census 14 million people described themselves as atheists (almost double the number from 2001). That is 22% of the UK population, and rising steadily (the figure today will be higher than that). So do we just give up then?

I would argue that these are not the souls in most need. They are believers. They are Christians. They at least are headed down the right road. They are perhaps not in the best vehicle for the journey, but at least they’re going in the right direction. It’s the poor souls who are sitting by the roadside going nowhere (or heading in the wrong direction completely) who we should really be trying to get onboard.
Maybe I am just more of a pessimist than you. All my readings of Scripture, and theology suggest to me that a great many will not be saved. It’s very sad, but unsurprising to me. The large majority of early 1st century Jews rejected Christ, having seen Him and His miraculous acts directly. Even 1 of the 12 rejected him. I can’t imagine those rejections played well for them when they faced individual judgement.

Personally, I “work out my salvation in fear and trembling”. I have committed a great many mortal sins, and deserve damnation too. So, it wouldn’t surprise me if a majority of the Catholics in the pew early Sunday aren’t in the state of grace.

So, that leaves us in this world, trying to help as many achieve salvation as we can, but knowing many will not choose it, and will choose hell instead. We know God has given each of them sufficient Grace to be saved, if they will only accept it, so we can’t let their bad choices make us despondent.

I think the answer is we focus on those who appear to be willing to accept God’s Grace If someone has hardened their heart to God, it will take a lot better evangelist than most of us to move them. But, people who believe in God and Christ, yet persist in mortal sin, can be reached much more easily.

God Bless
 
Bilop, we are all ‘damaged goods’, we are all sinners, both inside the Church and out.

Our Church is a Church full of sinners, mortal sinners. Within the Church we are all just imperfectly bumbling along trying to do what we think is right, and then failing, and then trying, and then failing and so on… in an attempt to find our way to the Lord. And that is the state of us who have the advantage of being inside the Church.

How disadvantaged then are the poor souls outside the Church, or even outside of a belief in Christ? Nevertheless they are all still our brothers and sisters and we have a duty to help them. Christ has called on us to love our neighbour as we would love ourselves.

We cannot abandon our neighbour to a fate worse than death. We must accept our neighbour and walk with him on his journey, guiding him towards the light. That, I believe, should be the main role of the Church today.
 
The entire point is to evangelize out of love for the dignity of the atheist, not show them they’re “stoopid.” Please reassess your motivations.
The “dignity of the atheist”? What does that even mean, bro? The dignity of the person who professes belief in a negative proposition, that there is no God?

I find speaking plainly works better.
 
But of course it’s easy to then note the specious quality of many such stories.
They simply can’t all be false. Many are well documented. And it is easy to go from your proposition to one where the Bible is false, also. You then undermine your own mission.
 
The “dignity of the atheist”? What does that even mean, bro?
The dignity of one of our brothers who, like us, is made in the image of God. All men have dignity, regardless of their beliefs, and we are bound to respect that dignity. That is what our Church teaches.
I find speaking plainly works better.
Works better for who? For you or for the atheist to be evangelised?

Pointing out that someone is wrong is a pointless, self-indulgent exercise unless it leads to that person agreeing with you. If such words do not help convince someone and move them towards Christ, then those words are completely worthless.
 
There are good answers against each and every one of them–that’s usually the reason atheists are, indeed, atheists. They have already thought of all these arguments and explored them and have found answers that support the other side more so than that of religious believers.
Not all. Some people are just atheists because of the atheistic culture around them (in Europe anyway), belief in God is mumbo-jumbo because that’s the message given by the culture they live in. Some people are atheists because they have suffered hurt in their lives and as a result have lost the belief that there can be a God. Some people are atheists because it doesn’t challenge the lifestyle they like to live. Some people are atheists because its an easy option. Some people are atheist because they listen to fools like Richard Dawkins, who misrepresents religion and God, and think “He sounds like a clever guy, he must know what he’s talking about” (even though he doesn’t).

There are many reasons why people are atheists, and there are many different types of atheists. They haven’t all sat down, rationally worked through the options and arrived at it from an intellectual position.
 
Not all. Some people are just atheists because of the atheistic culture around them (in Europe anyway), belief in God is mumbo-jumbo because that’s the message given by the culture they live in. Some people are atheists because they have suffered hurt in their lives and as a result have lost the belief that there can be a God. Some people are atheists because it doesn’t challenge the lifestyle they like to live. Some people are atheists because its an easy option. Some people are atheist because they listen to fools like Richard Dawkins, who misrepresents religion and God, and think “He sounds like a clever guy, he must know what he’s talking about” (even though
he doesn’t).

There are many reasons why people are atheists, and there are many different types of atheists. They haven’t all sat down, rationally worked through the options and arrived at it from an intellectual position.
If you are going to start talking to them with that approach, it isn’t going to help.

I’m not a big fan of Richard Dawkins but can’t assume he is a fool and not clever, on the contrary, I think he is intelligent on many issues.

Like you said there is many reasons for someone to be an atheist, but most of them agree that there is no proof for supernatural beings and that they are not supposed to believe blindly, when someone says “something exists”, they have to prove the claim

Secondly, to them, there is a lot of scientific, historical, rational evidences and philosophical arguments to disprove the stories of ancient civilisations and God(s).

Thirdly, they think, that most religions have done more evil and brainwashing to the world, and that these religions are not only misguided lies but awful and violent controlling ones too, most atheists aren’t relativist concerning morality.
 
The “dignity of the atheist”? What does that even mean, bro? The dignity of the person who professes belief in a negative proposition, that there is no God?

I find speaking plainly works better.
Every person has inherent dignity in them due to the fact they’re made in the image and likeness of Christ the Son. That’s it - that’s not contingent upon anything else, not if they deny it, not if they deny God’s exist, etc. I might deny the law of gravity but my denial of an objective fact has no impact upon it. There’s a reason why Christ says to have αγαπη for your enemies.

What is the impact of this? It means you should probably try to be more Christlike in your love and not just try to make an atheist feel belittled. All that breeds is contempt. If you’re preaching the word to “serve” people, bro, I think you have questionable motivations that proceed from either your own insecurity or inflated sense of pride.

The distinction to take away is there’s a difference between speaking clearly and being not only abrasive but unchristian.
 
There are good answers against each and every one of them–that’s usually the reason atheists are, indeed, atheists. They have already thought of all these arguments and explored them and have found answers that support the other side more so than that of religious believers.
How, then, to explain the conversion of some atheists who actually examine their position and come to see the dissonance that they have embraced?
 
What does this mean? “Reports” of survival after death?

I have to say…that all the topics listed here so far to bring up to an atheist – I don’t think any of them would be convincing.

There are good answers against each and every one of them–that’s usually the reason atheists are, indeed, atheists. They have already thought of all these arguments and explored them and have found answers that support the other side more so than that of religious believers.

Most atheists allow for the possibility of God, just as they allow for the possibility of anything (do believers allow for the possibility of *no *God, I wonder?)…and if a piece of evidence seemed solid enough, they would believe.
But so far, nothing does.

It would be nice if a/the God from one of the major religions followed by people today showed up and parted the sea or something, just for a few minutes.

This might be effective and would influence millions of people all at once. But I don’t think God does that kind of stuff much anymore?

.
And there are answers to the answers, I think you would find. But the mistake many believers make is to think that they don’t have to do their research. Someone who is serious about evangelism needs to learn some philosophy, some theology, some science. Or at least not be ashamed to say “I don’t know, let me ask someone.”

I am a graduate student in philosophy. Many Christians in my field work hard to develop their reasons, and it is real work. We make a grave mistake to think otherwise.
 
How, then, to explain the conversion of some atheists who actually examine their position and come to see the dissonance that they have embraced?
This isn’t a good criteria, how then would you explain the many others who were imposed to this argument and remain unbelievers or changed into Muslims let’s say.

From the posts of some ex atheists in this forum, a lot of them say that they were atheist while in fact they were just irreligious, sinners or maltheists.

Maltheists aren’t atheists, many irreligious and “sinners” aren’t atheists too.
 
This isn’t a good criteria, how then would you explain the many others who were imposed to this argument and remain unbelievers or changed into Muslims let’s say.
The point still stands. If the arguments for Christianity were untenable, then no atheists would convert.

That there are atheists who convert to Christianity is testament to the fact that some do indeed find Christianity reasonable.

That there are atheists who do not convert to Christianity, or find answers in some other religion is not a refutation of my position.

What you are saying is parallel to this:

Let’s say I posit: In order to win a gold medal in the Olympics, one must first be a competitor.

You respond by saying, : the above is false because I know someone who was a competitor in the Olympics but she did not win a gold medal.

Clearly, your argument does not refute my position. That there are competitors who don’t win gold does not refute my correct claim. It still remains true that in order to win a gold medal in the Olympics one must first be a competitor. 🤷
 
There’s a difference here. No, it is not ultimately our job to save people. But it is our job to evangelize.
The work of evangelization is done, is my point. Modern atheists are not in the position of classical pagans, of people who have no knowledge at all of Christ. They have heard the truth and rejected it. They may not understand they are rejecting the truth but I don’t imagine that wasn’t true for those who refused to listen to Peter et al., whom Christ nevertheless instructed not to waste their time.
And part of our job as evangelists is to speak to people in ways they understand. How can you know that someone doesn’t want to hear “Jesus Christ is Lord” when no one has said it in a way that they may understand?
My point is that there is no way a committed atheist can understand. The presuppositions underlying atheism are flatly incompatible with Christianity in general and Catholicism especially, and only once they are willing to repent of those presuppositions does the possibility for conversion open up. This means we are in a largely passive, receptive kind of position – praying and fasting, living saintly lives to inspire others, and answering questions when asked.
Many atheists I’ve found reject a God and religion that quite simply isn’t the God we worship and the religion we follow. They think there are no arguments for God, and that religion is just about blind obedience. Or they think that it’s just about making rules against things they don’t like. They reject the name “Jesus” but they have no idea who He is.
I agree. But it’s their fault, not ours, that they make no effort to seek out the best arguments for Christianity. There’s no shortage of them – the reason they aren’t seeking them out is because they don’t care and aren’t interested. It’s irrelevant to them. I know because I’ve been there. There is plenty out there written already, whether rigorous logical proofs from a Thomist perspective, spiritual meditations, mysticism, historical proofs (N.T. Wright’s stuff), etc. There is even a whole body of literature examining the many, serious, obvious problems with the naturalist/mechanist perspective. Yet these have done remarkably little to convert atheists en masse.

We need to consider that we do not have a grip on what we are up against. People talk like if we only had the right argument, or the right charismatic kinda person to make them, the whole world would convert. This is not true; if it were, we’d all be screwed, because none of us are even a fraction as smart or charismatic or holy as the kinds of saints who came before us and who still didn’t make a dent in the rising secularist tide. The problem isn’t intellectual, it’s spiritual – the problem is souls muddied by sin, intellects clouded by darkness and selfishness, etc. The solution is not generating an infinite permutation of meticulously detailed arguments for every possible perspective, it is praying and fasting and doing penance in the hopes of making the world worthier of receiving grace.
Like you said there is many reasons for someone to be an atheist, but most of them agree that there is no proof for supernatural beings and that they are not supposed to believe blindly, when someone says “something exists”, they have to prove the claim.
Yes, I’ve heard this before. It is to my mind a nearly perfect proof of how invulnerable the atheist is to argumentation. There is plenty of reason to believe in God, namely the fact that virtually everyone virtually everywhere for virtually all of history did. If everyone but me thinks the sky is blue, and I think it’s pink, I have two choices: I can believe that I’m wrong (that there’s something wrong with the rods and cones in my eyes, or with the way my brain processes color information), or I can believe that I’m right and everyone else is wrong. Are these positions equally valid? Of course not – obviously it is more reasonable to conclude that I am missing something that no one else is than that I am the one special unique person who sees the true reality of the sky’s color.

Yet the atheist literally chooses the latter position every time. He would rather think he is smarter than Aristotle, Augustine, Aquinas, etc., even though he probably has not even read them and has spent maybe a whopping hour thinking things through, where Aquinas et al. devoted their entire lives to contemplation of the divine mysteries.

This is what I meant when I said before that we are not up against mere ignorance, we are up against positive sin, against hubris, against a positive will to disbelieve. And I know because, again, I have been there, and it was only by a monstrous exertion of unmerited grace that I was able to escape it.
 
The work of evangelization is done, is my point. Modern atheists are not in the position of classical pagans, of people who have no knowledge at all of Christ. They have heard the truth and rejected it. They may not understand they are rejecting the truth but I don’t imagine that wasn’t true for those who refused to listen to Peter et al., whom Christ nevertheless instructed not to waste their time.

My point is that there is no way a committed atheist can understand. The presuppositions underlying atheism are flatly incompatible with Christianity in general and Catholicism especially, and only once they are willing to repent of those presuppositions does the possibility for conversion open up. This means we are in a largely passive, receptive kind of position – praying and fasting, living saintly lives to inspire others, and answering questions when asked.

I agree. But that’s their fault, not ours, that they make no effort to seek out the best arguments for Christianity. There’s no shortage of them – the reason they aren’t seeking them out is because they don’t care and aren’t interested. It’s irrelevant to them. I know because I’ve been there. There is plenty out there written already, whether rigorous logical proofs from a Thomist perspective, spiritual meditations, mysticism, etc. There is even a whole body of literature examining the many, serious, obvious problems with the naturalist/mechanist perspective. Yet these have done remarkably little to convert atheists en masse.

We need to consider that we do not have a grip on what we are up against. People talk like if we only had the right argument, or the right charismatic kinda person to make them, the whole world would convert. This is not true; if it were, we’d all be screwed, because none of us are even a fraction as smart or charismatic or holy as the kinds of saints who came before us and who still didn’t make a dent in the rising secularist tide. The problem isn’t intellectual, it’s spiritual – the problem is souls muddied by sin, intellects clouded by darkness and selfishness, etc. The solution is not generating an infinite permutation of meticulously detailed arguments for every possible perspective, it is praying and fasting and doing penance in the hopes of making the world worthier of receiving grace.

Yes, I’ve heard this before. It is to my mind a nearly perfect proof of how invulnerable the atheist is to argumentation. There is plenty of reason to believe in God, namely the fact that virtually everyone virtually everywhere for virtually all of history did. If everyone but me thinks the sky is blue, and I think it’s pink, I have two choices: I can believe that I’m wrong (that there’s something wrong with the rods and cones in my eyes, or with the way my brain processes color information), or I can believe that I’m right and everyone else is wrong. Are these positions equally valid? Of course not – obviously it is more reasonable to conclude that I am missing something that no one else is.

Yet the atheist literally chooses the latter position every time. He would rather think he is smarter than Aquinas, even though he has not even read Aquinas and has spent maybe a whopping hour thinking things through, where Aquinas devoted his entire life to contemplation of the divine mysteries.

This is what I meant when I said before that we are not up against mere ignorance, we are up against positive sin, against hubris, against a positive will to disbelieve. And I know because, again, I have been there, and it was only by a monstrous exertion of unmerited grace that I was able to escape it.
All I can say to this is that I am sure glad the people who spoke to me as an atheist didn’t take your attitude. I would have walked away having confirmed my belief that Christians were just selfish people who thought everyone not like them was stupid and evil.
 
The “dignity of the atheist”? What does that even mean, bro? The dignity of the person who professes belief in a negative proposition, that there is no God?
Perhaps my earlier advice is best taken – stop using language (aka stop talking) with atheists. Perhaps this method should be most encouraged when someone’s basic dignity is called into question (in contrast to, say, the CCC).
They simply can’t all be false. Many are well documented. And it is easy to go from your proposition to one where the Bible is false, also. You then undermine your own mission.
Oh, dear. This isn’t a matter of documentation, nor of quantity. There isn’t any basic logic to support the claim “they simply can’t all be false.” And if one isn’t going to rely on basic logic when speaking with atheists, again, perhaps it’s best not to speak at all.
 
All I can say to this is that I am sure glad the people who spoke to me as an atheist didn’t take your attitude. I would have walked away having confirmed my belief that Christians were just selfish people who thought everyone not like them was stupid and evil.
Selfishness has nothing to do with it, it has to do with recognizing our own limitations and the enormity and unprecedented character of the problem facing us, with recognizing that God alone can turn things to the good at this point – and that the best we can do is make ourselves worthy of such intervention. Your last few words are such a grotesque perversion of what I actually said that they are simply beneath comment.
 
Selfishness has nothing to do with it, it has to do with recognizing our own limitations and the enormity and unprecedented character of the problem facing us, with recognizing that God alone can turn things to the good at this point – and that the best we can do is make ourselves worthy of such intervention. Your last few words are such a grotesque perversion of what I actually said that they are simply beneath comment.
Are they? I am asking you to set aside your views and put yourself into the mind of an atheist, not the caricature of one that you have created. I am asking you to think of how your words sound to someone who does not share your own presuppositions. To someone outside that sort of attitude, no matter how well-intentioned, looks like a foot-stomping insistance in your own rightness and an unwillingness to engage with those outside. It pushes even those of us who were and are open away, because it comes across as rejecting reason and dialogue.
 
Bilop, we are all ‘damaged goods’, we are all sinners, both inside the Church and out.

Our Church is a Church full of sinners, mortal sinners. Within the Church we are all just imperfectly bumbling along trying to do what we think is right, and then failing, and then trying, and then failing and so on… in an attempt to find our way to the Lord. And that is the state of us who have the advantage of being inside the Church.

How disadvantaged then are the poor souls outside the Church, or even outside of a belief in Christ? Nevertheless they are all still our brothers and sisters and we have a duty to help them. Christ has called on us to love our neighbour as we would love ourselves.

We cannot abandon our neighbour to a fate worse than death. We must accept our neighbour and walk with him on his journey, guiding him towards the light. That, I believe, should be the main role of the Church today.
They are disadvantaged because they choose to be. No one in the Western world lacks access to the Good News of Christ. They have heard it, and chosen to reject, and often ridicule it.

All we can do is to continue to speak the Truth of Christ, and help those willing to be helped. How do you “walk with him on his journey” if his journey is one of materialism, and hedonism, and idolatry?

God Bless
 
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