Iran Executes Gays

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It is reported that in July 2 Gay teenagers 17 & 18 were hanged in a public square in northern Iran.The Iranian govt. than distributed pictures of the execution to newspapers.
The two had been in prison and allegedly tortured for over a year.Which means they may have been as young as 16 when the elleged homosexual act occured.This is not the first nor it seems the last execution of Gays in Iran. This is a vivid example of Life in an , Islamic Republic !
 
In Islam, the Shariah expicitly stipulates the death penalty for various acts such as killing another human, adultery (a married person or previously married person having sexual intercourse with a person who is not his spouse), and this includes homosexuality. ofcourse death sentences are not thrown left and right at every accused, there have to be conditions met for such sentences to be given and/or the person acknowledging doing the act. But this isnt the place to go into that. However yes in Islamic law homosexuality that is proven in court without a shadow of a doubt holds the sentence of death in Islam. And so long as a person lives in an Islamically governed land, they are choosing to live there under such laws. If they do not wish to live under such laws they are not forced to live there. Same goes for Muslims who might not like the laws in a secular country, they still have to abide by them, unless they choose to leave to an islamic land.

Applying the death penalty to those who committed Homosexuality isnt something only restricted to Islamic Law, actually it was the norm in the past.

Heres something i came across on a website through a random google search:
The rise of intellectualism and the Protestant Reformation did little to change attitudes toward homosexuality. The Spanish Visigoths punished homosexuals by castration. The Reformation brought stronger condemnations of those who commit homosexual acts. France punished homosexual behavior with loss of the testicles for the first offense, loss of the penis for the second offense, and death by burning at the stake for a third offense. Henry VIII outlawed homosexuality in England in 1533 with penalties including loss of property and death. Police monitored Molly Houses, or brothels for male prostitutes, and those who visited were put to death. This practice continued until the early 1700s.
The earliest record of someone receiving the death penalty for homosexual acts in what would become a part of the United States was in St. Augustine, Florida in 1566 when a man was executed by the military. The United States maintained the death penalty for convicted “sodomites” until about 1779 when Thomas Jefferson proposed that Virginia drop the death penalty for the crime and replace it with castration. Some states have revised the punishment for sodomy over the years, and some states and localities have passed laws protecting those who commit homosexual acts.
The Revolution in France brought an end to criminal laws regarding sexual activities in 1810 under the Napoleonic Code. England abolished the death penalty for acts of homosexuality in 1861.
Laws today are obviously very different compared to the past as governments have turned more secular and liberal and have completely separated itself from religion and/or the church. However, with Islam, Law and faith are completely interlinked. There is no such thing as secularism in Islam. Islam isnt just faith and spiritualism, it is a complete way of life, a governing every aspect from law to how we run our household to how we engage in business to how we use the washroom!

I should also point out that Incest is alot like homosexuality. While laws are changing for homosexuality, incest is still considered against the law and subject to jail time in the western governments, that is ofcourse if one is found guilty for it. Perhaps in the next 50 years we will see those who practice incest try to advocate it through the same means gays and lesbians have advocated for homosexuality and rights to marry, through rights of freedom and whatnot.

Im sure many will have all sorts of comments to my reply, but i thought i should be straight forward on the Islamic prespective on this issue. Im not sure what the catholic stance on homosexuality is, i presume the Pope and the church is against it. But i did come across the penalty for homosexuality in the Bible.

“If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.” [Leviticus 20:13 (New International Version)]

Last point, torture and abuse is completely forbidden in Islam, even if its towards a criminal. How a government and its authorities conduct itself, even if they claim to be following Islam, is not proof for what Islam teaches, just as christian governments are not proof for what christianity teaches.

I would also like to point out as a side note, Iran is a shia government. The Shia faith is completely different from that of what the majority of Muslims in the world (ie. Sunnis) follow.
 
I would also like to point out as a side note, Iran is a shia government. The Shia faith is completely different from that of what the majority of Muslims in the world (ie. Sunnis) follow.
I thought muslims have only one Quran and that this is the ultimate revelation from God?

Pio
 
You seem to have missed the primary point.The age of the teenagers.If they were 16 when the alleged act occured.Many 16 year olds are sure what they are, sexualy. To execute them for one indiscretion seems barbaric.
Also isnt a lot of what we are told is Islam, realy a cultural addition to Islam.
Also this is 2005.Not the middle ages.No Catholic is proud of the excesses of the Spanish Inquisition.
 
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hlgomez:
I thought muslims have only one Quran and that this is the ultimate revelation from God?

Pio
And i thought christians have one bible… yet there are various sects in christianity. Also, the emergance of sects within Islam was already prophecised by the Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him. The Shia are from the first sects to emerg in Islam.
 
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JOHNYJ:
You seem to have missed the primary point.The age of the teenagers.If they were 16 when the alleged act occured.Many 16 year olds are sure what they are, sexualy. To execute them for one indiscretion seems barbaric.
Also isnt a lot of what we are told is Islam, realy a cultural addition to Islam.
Also this is 2005.Not the middle ages.No Catholic is proud of the excesses of the Spanish Inquisition.
Yes, Muslims are still living in the 12th century or thereabouts! Just as Hillaire Belloc said, the Muslim mentality is fanatical and bloodthirsty.

There’s a lot of misconceptions about the Inquisition. Catholic Answers has a very good article about that. There were people at the time up for trial who would blaspheme so they could be tried by the Inquisition rather than secular courts, because they got better treatment there.
 
No booklover, the difference between the laws of Islam and christianity is that the Islamic laws dont change with time, nor is Islam purely spiritual without laws to govern a society. No such thing as secular law in Islam.
 
Hashi Al-Eritre:
No booklover, the difference between the laws of Islam and christianity is that the Islamic laws dont change with time, nor is Islam purely spiritual without laws to govern a society. No such thing as secular law in Islam.
Yes, Islam is still as barbaric and cruel as it always was!:rolleyes:
 
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Booklover:
Yes, Islam is still as barbaric and cruel as it always was!:rolleyes:
Booklover

A verse from your own Bible as been quoted saying that if a man is seen lying with another man, they must be put to death!

What do you think about this verse, was it not revealed from your Lord? Or is it only when something comes from Islam that it is barbaric?

please, try to be a little objective!
 
Faith101 # 9
It is obvious that muslim countries would have a very hard time if they were questioned about their adherence to treaties they have signed that have to do with human Rights. Generaly speaking muslims are better off in christian countries than christians are in muslim ones. Hell muslims are better off in Israel. Than they are in some muslim countries.
 
Under the Old Testament Law it is true that homosexuality bore the death penalty, and this was revealed by God. We, however, are no longer under the Old Covenant (Old Law) as Christ has come and has fulfilled all things. The Old Covenant was a temporary measure until Christ’s sacrifice on the cross perfected all things. The Old Covenant was between God and Israel—a single nation—thus it was both temporal (earthly) and spiritual, and thus could be used as the law of the land. The New Covenant, instituted by Christ, which fulfills the old, is for all peoples, places, and times, and thus does not have a temporal law (earthly). The Church is ruled by the bishops, to whom Christ gave the power to bind and to loose…so while doctrine can not change (what has been revealed to us by Christ), the Church can change disciplines as the need arises, so that the faithful can live out their faith in every situation that arises.
 
Hashi:
it was the norm in the past…1533… early 1700s…1566…1779…1810…1861.

Those dates should tell you something, hash.

Leviticus 20:13… What do you think about this verse, was it not revealed from your Lord?
That’s Old Testment = old law. And, no, it wasn’t revealed by Jesus. When preaching against the hypocricy that existed when the old law was applied, Jesus said, “Let the one among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone…” John 8:4

And so long as a person lives in an Islamically governed land, they are choosing to live there under such laws. If they do not wish to live under such laws they are not forced to live there. Same goes for Muslims who might not like the laws in a secular country, they still have to abide by them…Incest is alot like homosexuality.

Agreed.
*there are various sects in christianity. Also, the emergance of sects within Islam was already prophecised by the Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him. The Shia are from the first sects to emerg in Islam
*Agreed. Thanks for a Muslim finally willing to admit it.

*Islamic laws dont change with time.
*That can be a good thing, and at the same time, a bad thing. So partially agreed.

Iran is a shia government.
Is it following Muslim law or not?
JohnyJ
You seem to have missed the primary point.The age of the teenagers… Also this is 2005.Not the middle ages. No Catholic is proud of the excesses of the Spanish Inquisition.

Thank you, Johny.
 
Hi everyone,

Im trying to understand, as i thought this site is a religious site opposed to secularism and to people putting down religion and its laws, why is it that it I consistently see christians (of all kinds) reject their laws when they dont see them fit for current times? I mean, do you believe in your scriptures or not? and if so, why do i keep seeing this attitude of ‘we are in different times now’ and this attitude of restricting christianity to only spiritualism and almost void of any governance and law to govern society and nations?

And what really puzzles me is when GENERAL laws in the old testament are just put aside by christians. Isnt the old testament STILL PART OF THE BIBLE, and if you dont have any law in the new testament contradicting it, or abrogating it, why are individuals here just abrogating it in their own authority?

As i said before Islam doesnt change its laws with time, because we believe when God reveals something, we have to believe it in all times, NO MATTER THE ‘CURRENT TIMES’ or what society says. Society doesnt decide whats right or wrong, God is the only one who has that right. ANd if he reveales to us that sodomy is wrong, and there is a punishement for it, we shouldnt object to that because of the ‘current times’.

Muslims and christians have their ideological differences, but i thought we were both on the same page when it came to upholding faith in God, opposing secularism and applying his rule on the earth, no matter what the ‘current times’ are.

The clearest sign that a religion is false is when it changes in accordance to the society, thus making people and not Gods words its guide. So if in the next generation of society, incest becomes accepted by society, is christianity going to accept it too???
 
catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0010bt.asp
This will help some.

I think you ask an excellent question. And I would pose it just as you have here, but on the Scripture section of Catholic Answers forums forums.catholic-questions.org/forumdisplay.php?f=30

I’m not the best person to explain this, Hash, but I will try hard because I can understand why a person like yourself would be confused. I’m not presently at home, where I could provide more beneficial info and links. Please remember that here and from me you will get the Catholic perspective; and I’m not trying to convince you of anything, just to help to understand where we are coming from.

To me, the Old Testament is primarily a group of history books. They lend depth and perspective to the New Testament and the new law under Jesus, who we believe he fullfilled the prophecies of the OT. The OT basically served it’s purpose. It exists only to set up the New Testament. Jesus said those laws were over. He criticized the Jews of that day for being too concerned with complying with the law, but not understanding the purpose of the law. When they tried to trip him up with the law, Jesus basically replied, “Look, the two most important laws are to love God more than anything else, and to treat your neighbor like you would want to be treated. If you follow those, everything will fall into place.”

General laws of the OT – like the 10 Commandments and Genesis (Creation) – are recognized by Christians. But as for stoning someone to death … that was answered (by Jesus) earlier in the thread.

The Catholic view of Jesus’ teachings have remained essentially unchanged for about 2,000 years. So provide specific examples of “abrogating God’s law” when you post in the Scipture section.

Yes, the Catholic Church has established rules about some of it’s practices, which is fine as long as a practice isn’t specifically prohibited in Scripture. Christ gave the Church the authority to do this. Some churches choose not to exercise this authority. And these practices can change over time, because they were established by men, not God.

But the absolutely essential laws – all those established by Jesus – are conscientiously guarded by the Church. That is the purpose of its existence.

Good luck in your quest for better understanding among the world’s religions.
 
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JOHNYJ:
It is reported that in July 2 Gay teenagers 17 & 18 were hanged in a public square in northern Iran.The Iranian govt. than distributed pictures of the execution to newspapers.
The two had been in prison and allegedly tortured for over a year.Which means they may have been as young as 16 when the elleged homosexual act occured.This is not the first nor it seems the last execution of Gays in Iran. This is a vivid example of Life in an , Islamic Republic !
A person whose sexual’s preference does not conform was convicted and given the death sentence. What crime that has far reaching consequence that can possibly merited a death sentence? And homosexuality is one of them?

Is this not a case of mixing church and state?
 
Reuben J:
Is this not a case of mixing church and state?
I’m no expert, but this is my understanding: Moslems have no concept of a seperation of church and state when in an Islamic country. Their religion provides the moral framework necessary for all society, including the government. Their country’s laws are the Sharia, which are their religion’s laws as well. That isn’t the best wording, so here is where you can see more: i-cias.com/e.o/sharia.htm

Also, calling the Sharia ‘law’ can be misleading, as Sharia extends beyond law. Sharia is the totality of religious, political, social, domestic and private life. Sharia is primarily meant for all Muslims, but applies to a certain extent also for people living inside a Muslim society. Muslims are not totally bound by the Sharia when they live or travel outside the Muslim world.

Dogmatically, Sharia is not something the intelligence of man can prove wrong, it is only to be accepted by humans, since it is based on the will of God. This is clear from what we read in the Koran: Chapter 45:
The Chaper of the Kneeling
17 …then we gave you a Sharia in religion, follow it, and do not follow the lust of those who do not know…

*The regulations of the Sharia can be divided into two groups: *
*regulations on worship and ritual duties *
regulations of juridical and political nature

But despite this, many parts of the Sharia have no or little importance in most Muslim societies, except in those that have gone through a phase of Islamization (Sudan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and to some extent Libya). But the Sharia has much importance in domestic judicial fields like family, marriage and inheritance.
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Forest pine

This is a true Piece of information. Cant say 100% but most of it reflect reality.
 
That is exactly the case. In Islam there is no separation between religion and state governance. Islam carries laws and teachings that encompasses society in every aspect. And this is from the most beautiful aspects of Islam, no other religion carries such an attribute.

And if you really examine the pitfalls of society today, it is because of this ‘separation between church and state’ that has lead to what society is today… negligent of God, following their desires, and making lawful what God has made unlawful.
 
Hashi Al-Eritre:
That is exactly the case. In Islam there is no separation between religion and state governance. Islam carries laws and teachings that encompasses society in every aspect. And this is from the most beautiful aspects of Islam, no other religion carries such an attribute.

And if you really examine the pitfalls of society today, it is because of this ‘separation between church and state’ that has lead to what society is today… negligent of God, following their desires, and making lawful what God has made unlawful.
I agree with you completely. It is the same view I have of Catholicism. It is a framework for all of society. I find it disheartening and quite confusing really that Protestants (and others) can seperate their religion from the other aspects of their life. It is because of my religious convictions that I do not believe we should approve of gay marriages or abortion or spousal abuse, and I take that with me into my political life.

While I disagree with some of the punishments and some of the rules, and also with some of the more extreme examples of Moslem law, I have great respect for Islam in general for maintaining that faith comes first and permeates all else in life.
 
Please someone get these people a history book ! Mixing religion and the state is death. Its that mixture that brought us the Inqisition . That brought us the executions and burnings under Elizabeth I . Pan Orhodoxy he;lped bring us World War I The Turkish Republic oe of the few somewhat tolerant Islamic countries. Was founded as a reaction to he abuses of the muslim Caliphate of the Ottomen empire.When Ataturk founded the Republic suppressed the influence of all religions.
Religion and the state is a terible mixture,ask any christian in an islamic country. Ask Protestants and Catholics in Russia.Where the Orthodox chuch is working to be the state religion.
 
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