Ireland public schools and the baptism requirement

[badnewsbarrett]

I have been hearing for some time that religious observance, new priests, and self-identified Catholic identity and beliefs have all been taking a nosedive in the Republic of Ireland. So I poked around to see how Catholic baptisms and marriages have been doing. Evidently, most Irish people continue to show up at their parish a handful of times in life in order to observe the essential rites and then they do nothing more. Part of this has to do with family pressure, force of habit and so forth. But there is one other specific reason for why Irish people continue to be just about as likely to baptize their children Catholic as they ever were.

Evidently, well over 90% of state-funded schools in Ireland (and 90% of primary schools taken as a whole) are not truly public schools in any sense, as this vast majority of schools are run and operated by the Catholic Church. In order to maintain a certain Catholic identity, strong preferences are maintained for baptized and (if possible) observant Catholics on staff and in the process of enrolling students. There is a certain order to the list of priorities, with baptized Catholics at the top, unbaptized non-religious at the bottom, and a fair number of other types in between. Additionally, a half-hour out of each school day is set aside for specifically Catholic religious instruction, and there is no opt-out option for non-Catholic children on the occasion when a few of them are able to be there. Again, this happens at state-funded schools.

The overall effect is that non-observant Catholics in Ireland frequently baptize their kids just so they can get into a good school that’s close by. The earliest possible time at which this my be rectified may be in mid-February when it could be up in a referendum, if not next month it will be an ongoing issue during and following the upcoming election.

These are a handful of links, although be forewarned none of them are from specifically Catholic sources. In this initial post, I am not attempting to have a balanced approach, because quite frankly I don’t think there should be a two-sided approach. All of this is massively inappropriate for state-funded schools, and what I have seen of an argument from the other side seems to consist of pointing out that it does cause people to baptize their children when they wouldn’t do so otherwise, so that makes it a good idea. But of course it doesn’t, because of the ends/means justification thing. And of course what if the shoe were on the other foot, and your childrens’ access to a state-funded version of public schools were seriously affected by your baptism history.

At any rate, here are some links.
npr.org/2015/08/17/432619097/as-more-irish-turn-away-from-catholicism-parents-call-for-non-religious-schools
theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/21/no-baptism-no-school-irish-parents-fight-for-equal-access-to-education
huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/30/ireland-catholic-school-monopoly_n_4690195.html

If by chance you’re interested in signing an online petition…
equalschoolaccess.com/

You can click for more information at the bottom left and click to sign at the bottom right. If you’re at all interested.

Be forewarned, if this type of religious discrimination (within the context of state-funded schools) is removed, this very next generation of Irish people will come as close to a full stop of Catholic baptisms as we have ever seen in any country. But however you may feel about that- this is the right thing to do,

I look forward to seeing just how everyone will choose to respond.

 

[Reuben_J]

**The overall effect is that non-observant Catholics in Ireland frequently baptize their kids just so they can get into a good school that’s close by. **

I would be quick to answer this because I do not believe that this is true.

No matter how bad Catholics they are, I do not believe an Irishman would stoop to this low.

Save for a few exceptions, the main reason for being non-practicing, lapsed, non-active or non-observant Catholics is simply being lazy to live a Christian life, which with the onslaught of the influence of the world and the reality of secularism that pervades all aspect of our lives today.

At heart these people still consider themselves to be Catholics, the reason why they attend mass occasionally. They baptize their children because they believe that is the correct religious thing to do. They may be bad sinners but they do not want their children to be like them. Baptizing the children, to Catholic parents, whether they are non-observant or extreme end of the spectrum, is to hope that the children will pick up the practice unlike themselves.

If anything, the situation merely shows the sad state of affair in Catholicism today, when Catholics simply leave it to their children to practice. The cut-off point would be when they do not want to baptize their children.

So no, I do not believe the above speculation. Baptism is not small matter, whether it is to Catholics or non-Catholics alike. By going through it, the person at least has the minimum belief of what it is going to entail.

 

[Usige]

My first thought is that Ireland is not the US and therefore not subject to American ideas that state funded education should be secular. The US is a bit of an oddity in that fact. And I don’t support it simply because the majority of Irish schools are Catholic. If most Scandinavian countries are Lutheran and have a large number of Lutheran state funded schools, then so what? It is their country and they can set their own educational standards. If that includes a recognition that religious schools can teach and meet those standards then good for them.

So, no I won’t be signing any petition. First and foremost, because I am not an Irish citizen and have zero to say in how they run their country. Secondly, because I think completely secular school systems are not the panacea some make them out to be. Third, there is no requirement that a school be Catholic. There already are secular schools (and those from other religions) in Ireland. If there is a huge push for secular schools the option exists when there is enough desire.

Long and short, it is not my place to tell the Irish (or any other sovereign nation) that they need to change hundreds of years of tradition to accommodate those who don’t like that tradition.

 

[liturgyluver]

There are state funded Christian schools in most European countries, though the propyion varies widely from 90% in Ireland, 35% in the UK, and 10% in the Scandinavian countries. Stop trying to impose American norms on the rest of the world - we have a longer and more complex history than the US.

 

[Simca]

There are state funded Christian schools in most European countries, though the propyion varies widely from 90% in Ireland, 35% in the UK, and 10% in the Scandinavian countries. Stop trying to impose American norms on the rest of the world - we have a longer and more complex history than the US.

Agree with this totally.

Does the OP leave in Ireland?

Has the OP listened to all the radio/TV reports on this in Ireland? Or just done some research on the internet? (just curious)

What would be better…to hang on to teaching the faith in schools? Or to totally throw God out of the school system? Yes, let’s turn our backs on God and push him out of our lives as much as possible It’s the politically correct thing to do, after all.

 

[You]

when the british protestants occupied ireland they burned down every catholic church, kept the largest cathedrals as protestant cathedrals and they have not returned them to the irish yet. they burned down all the monasteries stole the land and property. in a small town in the north of ireland they killed every man, woman and child, 5000 people, and gave the now empty land as payment to their generals. they established protestant schools and forced children to recite every day the words “i am a good little protestant child”.

they protestant british were like those monsters you would not like to meet on a dark night in a lonely place.

when ireland became a republic, beating the british out, their first annual national budget was 1 million dollars. there was no money in ireland for many decades. the government did not run schools and it was the voluntary and unsupported catholic religious who set up and ran the schools knowing that education not cottage industry and agriculture was the only way irish children would lift themselves out of poverty.

now that ireland is prosperous the largely, if not wholly, atheistic labour party campaigns to remove the primary education system from religious influence. none of the political parties had any interest in organizing education when there was no money in the country and it was those religious with vows of poverty who educated the grandparents and great grandparents of irish labour politicians.

every child in ireland gets an education, no child is barred an education because of religion, in fact if you don’t send your child to school you may in extreme cases run the risk of losing your child.

badnewsbarrett:

…and your childrens’ access to a state-funded version of public schools were seriously affected by your baptism history.

so when you say things like this, badnewsbarrett, you are parroting a sort of lie. you would be in serious difficulty if you did not send your child to school. it is the stupid parents who don’t believe in anything who complain about having to baptize their children. but of course they don’t have to baptize their children, their child will be educated anyway. ireland is a multicultural society and it would be very stupid to believe that none of those multicultural children were not accepted in their local schools.

 

[pepipop]

I would be quick to answer this because I do not believe that this is true.

No matter how bad Catholics they are, I do not believe an Irishman would stoop to this low.

Save for a few exceptions, the main reason for being non-practicing, lapsed, non-active or non-observant Catholics is simply being lazy to live a Christian life, which with the onslaught of the influence of the world and the reality of secularism that pervades all aspect of our lives today.

At heart these people still consider themselves to be Catholics, the reason why they attend mass occasionally. They baptize their children because they believe that is the correct religious thing to do. They may be bad sinners but they do not want their children to be like them. Baptizing the children, to Catholic parents, whether they are non-observant or extreme end of the spectrum, is to hope that the children will pick up the practice unlike themselves.

If anything, the situation merely shows the sad state of affair in Catholicism today, when Catholics simply leave it to their children to practice. The cut-off point would be when they do not want to baptize their children.

So no, I do not believe the above speculation. Baptism is not small matter, whether it is to Catholics or non-Catholics alike. By going through it, the person at least has the minimum belief of what it is going to entail.

Totally agree. It’s pure laziness and not wanting to ‘adhere’ to Catholic or other Christian teachings. In addition, a lot of these ‘Catholics’ although not practicing in the real sense will still wish the last rights and to be buried Catholic, and will also return to the Church when ‘life’s’ knocks - illness, death of children/spouse, old age, etc…eventually takes its’ toll.

The church I attend, on Sunday, out of ~ 15 parishes I could choose within a 10 minute driving distance, from where I live, is packed for all 4 masses.

On Christmas eve/day it was overflowing at all 8 masses this year, with standing room only. That was in addition to the parish centre being used to soak up the surplus at a separate mass -and it was standing room too.

The fact some Catholics only attend mass at Xmas, Easter Sunday, baptisms and weddings is their choice but they still strongly identify as being ‘Catholic’.

 

[pianistclare]

Married to an Irishman.
Our parish in Ireland is celebrating its 800th year anniversary.
Yes,. 800 years of continuous Masses…through the priest hunting era, and through the famine.
Nothing has stopped the people form going to Mass.
I’m not terribly concerned about the land of his ancestors and where we still own a farm.

 

[pepipop]

when the british protestants occupied ireland they burned down every catholic church, kept the largest cathedrals as protestant cathedrals and they have not returned them to the irish yet. they burned down all the monasteries stole the land and property. in a small town in the north of ireland they killed every man, woman and child, 5000 people, and gave the now empty land as payment to their generals. they established protestant schools and forced children to recite every day the words “i am a good little protestant child”.

they protestant british were like those monsters you would not like to meet on a dark night in a lonely place.

when ireland became a republic, beating the british out, their first annual national budget was 1 million dollars. there was no money in ireland for many decades. the government did not run schools and it was the voluntary and unsupported catholic religious who set up and ran the schools knowing that education not cottage industry and agriculture was the only way irish children would lift themselves out of poverty.

now that ireland is prosperous the largely, if not wholly, atheistic labour party campaigns to remove the primary education system from religious influence. none of the political parties had any interest in organizing education when there was no money in the country and it was those religious with vows of poverty who educated the grandparents and great grandparents of irish labour politicians.

every child in ireland gets an education, no child is barred an education because of religion, in fact if you don’t send your child to school you may in extreme cases run the risk of losing your child.

so when you say things like this, badnewsbarrett, you are parroting a sort of lie. you would be in serious difficulty if you did not send your child to school. it is the stupid parents who don’t believe in anything who complain about having to baptize their children. but of course they don’t have to baptize their children, their child will be educated anyway. ireland is a multicultural society and it would be very stupid to believe that none of those multicultural children were not accepted in their local schools.

Exactly, aside from the fact it would be illegal for the parents not to get their child to school.

This ‘fable’ is thrown up by the atheists, every with the few months, along with the financial backing of Amnesty International. The numbers of so-called people stating they ‘have’ to get their children baptised to obtain a place in a school, is miniscule and also completely incorrect, as all children, by law, ‘must’ be allocated a place in a school, in Ireland.

 

[JackyB]

Exactly, aside from the fact it would be illegal for the parents not to get their child to school.

This ‘fable’ is thrown up by the atheists, every with the few months, along with the financial backing of Amnesty International. The numbers of so-called people stating they ‘have’ to get their children baptised to obtain a place in a school, is miniscule and also completely incorrect, as all children, by law, ‘must’ be allocated a place in a school, in Ireland.

Thanks Pepipop, good to hear from someone living in Ireland what the truth is, one day I’ll pay a visit, long overdue considering my dad born in Dublin, thanks again.

 

[heart4home]

There are state funded Christian schools in most European countries, though the propyion varies widely from 90% in Ireland, 35% in the UK, and 10% in the Scandinavian countries. Stop trying to impose American norms on the rest of the world - we have a longer and more complex history than the US.

There are provincially funded schools in Canada as well. In Ontario there is a seperate tax dollar funded Catholic School option. In other provinces there are some Christian options that are tax funded as well.

However, It seems it is some of the Irish parents themselves that are trying to impose these “American” ideas, as you call them, on the rest of the world.

As the world becomes more and more secular and diverse and self serving, this shouldn’t surprise anybody.

Should non-practicing Catholics be allowed to baptize children? Should you be allowed to make a promise to bring up the child in the faith and then not ever attend mass? Is it Ok to make that promise knowing you have no intention of raising them in the faith, even if you still consider yourself “Catholic” culturally?

In our parish you must be an active member for 3 months before the birth to get them baptized.

 

[liturgyluver]

There are provincially funded schools in Canada as well. In Ontario there is a seperate tax dollar funded Catholic School option. In other provinces there are some Christian options that are tax funded as well.

However, It seems it is some of the Irish parents themselves that are trying to impose these “American” ideas, as you call them, on the rest of the world.

As the world becomes more and more secular and diverse and self serving, this shouldn’t surprise anybody.

Should non-practicing Catholics be allowed to baptize children? Should you be allowed to make a promise to bring up the child in the faith and then not ever attend mass? Is it Ok to make that promise knowing you have no intention of raising them in the faith, even if you still consider yourself “Catholic” culturally?

In our parish you must be an active member for 3 months before the birth to get them baptized.

No doubt the state will need to provide more non-faith affiliated schools, and it has begun this process already. As far as I am aware no-one has to baptise their child in order to secure a school place in Ireland or anywhere else in Europe. What I objected to in my previous post, is the suggestion that any state funded faith based education is inappropriate, a concept which most Europeans would disagree with.

 

[heart4home]

No doubt the state will need to provide more non-faith affiliated schools, and it has begun this process already. As far as I am aware no-one has to baptise their child in order to secure a school place in Ireland or anywhere else in Europe. What I objected to in my previous post, is the suggestion that any state funded faith based education is inappropriate, a concept which most Europeans would disagree with.

I agree with your objection, but I would gather that you are in the beginning stages of what will be a long battle, as more groups demand education, suited to their “beliefs”.

As you offer more secular options, the funding becomes divided. When the state continues to offer faith based for some groups, others will start to demand fair treatment. It just divides the educational system, and $$$ allocated for such, more and more.

 

[MissRose73]

One of my friends in Northern Ireland, was baptized and got other sacraments as a kid. He also grew up in Belfast where the schools were clearly religious affiliated and to this day so many of the schools still are also in areas that identify as Catholic in some way & some parents will not send their kids to integrated non faith based schools . I am sure it is a given that most kids going to a faith based school are baptized in the faith but I am sure they get a few kids whose parents are not Christians either. Some schools will welcome kids regardless of background but parents are probably told that religion is part of the curriculum in some way along with Mass attendance too.

I am not sure how many kids go to the equal of an American public school with other kids of many faith backgrounds in Ireland & Northern Ireland. The few Irish friends I had were educated only in Catholic schools and raised as Catholics. Some still practice their faith, others do not now as adults.

 

[pepipop]

Thanks Pepipop, good to hear from someone living in Ireland what the truth is, one day I’ll pay a visit, long overdue considering my dad born in Dublin, thanks again.

Thanks JackyB, you’re welcome.

 

[Picky_Picky]

I see the (Anglican) Church Times is asking its readers in a poll:

Do you know someone who has acted unethically to get a child admitted to a popular church school?

churchtimes.co.uk/

I’m ignorant on the issue in the Republic, but in England gossip has it that parents may suddenly take to church attendance to help get entry to a desirable CofE school. That is often raised as an argument against the system where state funds support faith schools but, in the English situation at least, it seems a weak argument.

Where there is a divided community, such as in N Ireland, as Jharek says, the argument takes on a different nature.

 

[pianistclare]

I see the (Anglican) Church Times is asking its readers in a poll:

churchtimes.co.uk/

I’m ignorant on the issue in the Republic, but in England gossip has it that parents may suddenly take to church attendance to help get entry to a desirable CofE school. That is often raised as an argument against the system where state funds support faith schools but, in the English situation at least, it seems a weak argument.

Where there is a divided community, such as in N Ireland, as Jharek says, the argument takes on a different nature.

Glad you brought this up.
At our parish, the Catholic school across the street requires children to attend a church…any church. They gave us a list of families who say they are parishioners.
Almost all of them were people we have never heard of or even laid eyes on. They just think they have a better shot of being accepted if they say they come here.

People just don’t trust the public school system in the US anymore.

 

[castle_hunter]

In my nephews’ school in ‘Talifornia’ in Dublin there is an underlying Catholic ethos but there are many non-Catholics. Many non-Christians. Doesn’t seem to be a problem.

In the Catholic primary school in England where my wife works there is one Muslim kid who has been trying to cause problems ever since she went on an extended family visit to Pakistan. I’m glad to say that the headteacher is having non of it.
In the Catholic high school where I work we have a good mix. Let’s be honest, not many of the kids come from devout families but they have something. It’s a seed. Hopefully they will grow.

 

[pianistclare]

The Guardian.
The Huffington post.

Really?
I’m out.

 

[Little_Sheep]

Married to an Irishman.
Our parish in Ireland is celebrating its 800th year anniversary.
Yes,. 800 years of continuous Masses…through the priest hunting era, and through the famine.
Nothing has stopped the people form going to Mass.
I’m not terribly concerned about the land of his ancestors and where we still own a farm.

I married an Irishman too! Smart move on my part.

His parents brought him to the States when he was very wee, so for all intents and purposes, he was raised here.

Our stories differ from there. Once my husband’s parents came to the US, they couldn’t drop Catholicism quickly enough. They both felt unhealthily controlled by the Irish Catholic Church and they longed to recover from it. There recovery consisted of never stepping foot in a church again save for weddings or funerals. Therefore, my husband was raised in no faith whatsoever, which has presented its own issues to me, a church girl from the cradle.

Still, I agree with you 100% that, as much as Ireland is changing, I do not see it ceasing to continue its rich Catholic tradition and heritage.