Ireland public schools and the baptism requirement

[You]

Every child gets some sort of education, but not every child gets extremely high quality education. The people that are making some noise about this are not worried about their children having no school, they are concerned that their children will have to settle for low quality education obnoxiously far from home in a school that’s overcrowded and overpriced, while the high-quality state-funded school that’s literally right there is effectively saying “Your children will be better off with their education if you just baptize them.”

The types of schools available in Ireland:
The Irish primary education sector consists of state-funded primary schools, special schools and private primary schools. State-funded schools include religious schools, multi-denominational schools and Gaelscoileanna, which are schools that teach the curriculum through the Irish language.

unless you are particularly well off almost everyone goes to the free state-funded primary or gaelscoileanna.

Rates:
Children in Ireland are entitled to free primary and post-primary education. The majority of primary schools are State-funded which means that you will not have to pay annual fees for your child’s education.

Choosing a school:
You should, in theory, be able to send your child to the school of your choice. However, when it comes to enrolling your child, you may find that there is little or no choice in the area in which you live. Each school operates an admissions policy, which they must make available on request. It is important to ask for the admissions policy of any school in which you are interested.

State-funded primary schools tend to give priority to children living in the immediate area, but problems can arise if their classes are already full and they have a waiting list. Multi-denominational schools and Gaelscoileanna each decide their own admissions policy.

Some secondary schools give priority to students coming from particular primary schools so it may be useful to plan ahead when choosing a primary school for your child.

The Catholic Church did a wonderful job of educating Ireland over the course of several generations. I give them all the credit in the world for that. But the Catholic Church in Ireland does not get to treat that achievement as if were a chit that can be exchanged for sacramental participation.

No one is suggesting that non-Catholic Irish children are at risk of being completely uneducated. I hope that what I wrote previously clears that up. Some non-Catholic Irish children are disadvantaged on account of their family’s religion, but they do still get a lower-quality education at greater inconvenience and perhaps at greater cost to their parents. But they do get some form of education, as I am well aware and also a little surprised at the need to clarify this for you.

non-Catholic Irish children get exactly the same quality of education as every other irish child, the only difference between them is that non-catholic children in a catholic ethos school can opt out of the religion classes if the wish to.

 

[benhur]

I have been hearing for some time that religious observance, new priests, and self-identified Catholic identity and beliefs have all been taking a nosedive in the Republic of Ireland. So I poked around to see how Catholic baptisms and marriages have been doing. Evidently, most Irish people continue to show up at their parish a handful of times in life in order to observe the essential rites and then they do nothing more. Part of this has to do with family pressure, force of habit and so forth. But there is one other specific reason for why Irish people continue to be just about as likely to baptize their children Catholic as they ever were.

Evidently, well over 90% of state-funded schools in Ireland (and 90% of primary schools taken as a whole) are not truly public schools in any sense, as this vast majority of schools are run and operated by the Catholic Church. In order to maintain a certain Catholic identity, strong preferences are maintained for baptized and (if possible) observant Catholics on staff and in the process of enrolling students. There is a certain order to the list of priorities, with baptized Catholics at the top, unbaptized non-religious at the bottom, and a fair number of other types in between. Additionally, a half-hour out of each school day is set aside for specifically Catholic religious instruction, and there is no opt-out option for non-Catholic children on the occasion when a few of them are able to be there. Again, this happens at state-funded schools.

The overall effect is that non-observant Catholics in Ireland frequently baptize their kids just so they can get into a good school that’s close by. The earliest possible time at which this my be rectified may be in mid-February when it could be up in a referendum, if not next month it will be an ongoing issue during and following the upcoming election.

These are a handful of links, although be forewarned none of them are from specifically Catholic sources. In this initial post, I am not attempting to have a balanced approach, because quite frankly I don’t think there should be a two-sided approach. All of this is massively inappropriate for state-funded schools, and what I have seen of an argument from the other side seems to consist of pointing out that it does cause people to baptize their children when they wouldn’t do so otherwise, so that makes it a good idea. But of course it doesn’t, because of the ends/means justification thing. And of course what if the shoe were on the other foot, and your childrens’ access to a state-funded version of public schools were seriously affected by your baptism history.

At any rate, here are some links.
npr.org/2015/08/17/432619097/as-more-irish-turn-away-from-catholicism-parents-call-for-non-religious-schools
theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/21/no-baptism-no-school-irish-parents-fight-for-equal-access-to-education
huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/30/ireland-catholic-school-monopoly_n_4690195.html

If by chance you’re interested in signing an online petition…
equalschoolaccess.com/

You can click for more information at the bottom left and click to sign at the bottom right. If you’re at all interested.

Be forewarned, if this type of religious discrimination (within the context of state-funded schools) is removed, this very next generation of Irish people will come as close to a full stop of Catholic baptisms as we have ever seen in any country. But however you may feel about that- this is the right thing to do,

I look forward to seeing just how everyone will choose to respond.

Thank you. Interesting. That is the trouble with attaching efficacy to baptism.Too many people do it as you say , out of pressure or tradition (from other family members,or as in Ireland, from the school setup). I personally think the folks are not lazy, but just not born again. Nothing worse than a spiritually dead person doing something religious, or at least something that makes them think they are OK when they are not, as I have been 'baptized",or my (grand) kids have been ‘baptized’. The rite/ceremony can be turned into something automatically sacramental.

I have seen even here where an infant is baptized but the parents, and godparents do not attend any church, and though not atheists have not been born of the spirit and thus have no spiritual life. The priest was aware that of the four ‘parents’ , only two were baptized in infancy but not "practicing’’ at all. Unfortunately a sticky mess, just like circumcision became for the Jews.

Blessings

 

[badnewsbarrett]

As I said before your expectations are different from those of us who have grown up with and worked in state run religious schools. The point is that catholic (or CofE) schools do work for everyone in the state. The faith aspect underpins the ethos of the school but parents have the right to withdraw their children from religious assemblies or acts of worship if they wish, but in fact very few do. They learn all about other faiths through the agreed curriculum.

In Ireland specifically- from what I’ve been able to learn so far- enrollment at such schools favors those who are baptized Catholic while everyone else is relegated to a series of lower priorities, with the non religious being the lowest priority of all. These kids get to attend the really good school near their home if there’s room after everyone else is taken care of, but mostly they have to figure something else out that costs them extra travel and money while usually leaving them with a lower quality education. It’s a bit of a hassle and not at all a total denial of education, but as anyone and everyone should know it doesn’t take much to get a big reaction when it comes to your kids.

Also, again from what I’ve gathered so far, although the opt-out type of thing may be typical in most of Europe it is my understanding that in Ireland specifically, there is no possibility of opting out of religious assemblies and this is one other thing that non Catholic Irish parents are specifically concerned about. It’s possible that it may vary from city to city in Ireland, but I have read the complaints of (atheist) parents from Dublin who specifically wanted to opt out of certain things and they were completely shut down.

 

[pepipop]

Thank you. Interesting. That is the trouble with attaching efficacy to baptism.Too many people do it as you say , out of pressure or tradition (from other family members,or as in Ireland, from the school setup). I personally think the folks are not lazy, but just not born again. Nothing worse than a spiritually dead person doing something religious, or at least something that makes them think they are OK when they are not, as I have been 'baptized",or my (grand) kids have been ‘baptized’. The rite/ceremony can be turned into something automatically sacramental.

I have seen even here where an infant is baptized but the parents, and godparents do not attend any church, and though not atheists have not been born of the spirit and thus have no spiritual life. The priest was aware that of the four ‘parents’ , only two were baptized in infancy but not "practicing’’ at all. Unfortunately a sticky mess, just like circumcision became for the Jews.

Blessings

The same thing happens with every other religion, on planet earth. Protestantism, Islam, Judaism, etc, etc… whether it be to appease families, family pressures, cultural/traditional reasons or whatever.

 

[badnewsbarrett]

The types of schools available in Ireland:
The Irish primary education sector consists of state-funded primary schools, special schools and private primary schools. State-funded schools include religious schools, multi-denominational schools and Gaelscoileanna, which are schools that teach the curriculum through the Irish language.

unless you are particularly well off almost everyone goes to the free state-funded primary or gaelscoileanna.

Rates:
Children in Ireland are entitled to free primary and post-primary education. The majority of primary schools are State-funded which means that you will not have to pay annual fees for your child’s education.

Choosing a school:
You should, in theory, be able to send your child to the school of your choice. However, when it comes to enrolling your child, you may find that there is little or no choice in the area in which you live. Each school operates an admissions policy, which they must make available on request. It is important to ask for the admissions policy of any school in which you are interested.

State-funded primary schools tend to give priority to children living in the immediate area, but problems can arise if their classes are already full and they have a waiting list. Multi-denominational schools and Gaelscoileanna each decide their own admissions policy.

Some secondary schools give priority to students coming from particular primary schools so it may be useful to plan ahead when choosing a primary school for your child.

Along with giving priority (at least typically) to families who live nearby, state-funded religious schools (which is 90% of primary schools in Ireland) also give priority to kids who were baptized as infants. Mainline kids get next priority, followed by other Christians, followed by non-Christian religions and then non religious families all the way at the end. There is a consistent system of prioritizing in this manner, and that is the primary reason why the UN is looking into the Irish education system.

non-Catholic Irish children get exactly the same quality of education as every other irish child, the only difference between them is that non-catholic children in a catholic ethos school can opt out of the religion classes if the wish to.

I have no doubt that the rest of Europe allows families to opt their kids out of religious classes and religious assemblies in comparable situations, but I challenge you to find a source indicating this is the case in Ireland. I think you’ll have a harder time than you might expect.

Please read this.

irishtimes.com/news/education/for-children-with-no-baptismal-certificate-the-school-gates-seem-to-be-closed-1.1624522

And then stop it with the nonsense about how state funded religious primary schools have admissions policies that don’t discriminate based on a family’s religion. Do make sure you follow that link.

"The little Church of Ireland school, which is the nearest one to our home, has had his name on its application list since he was six weeks old. In its letter last month the board of management “regrets to inform” me that my application has been “unsuccessful”.
“Your child is currently number 177 on our waiting list . . . All offers of places were made in accordance with the school enrolment policy.”
The criteria according to which children can get in the queue are then set out. There are 11 categories, the first being “Church of Ireland children of the [local] parishes,” followed by “COI siblings/Protestant siblings” followed by COI children from outside the parishes. Next in are COI children from inter-church marriages, then other Protestant children, then other siblings, then children of inter-church marriages where the child is not COI, children of staff, Roman Catholic Children, Orthodox children and last, the category into which my son falls,
“other children”.
This school will take any child of almost any faith from anywhere in the country before they will take an unbaptised child living around the corner.
The Roman Catholic school is a little further away. My son is 117th on the waiting list. His name has been down since he was a baby, but date of application is not relevant there, the principal told me. The letter turning him away from there said siblings of current pupils were prioritised. This is understandable and “all 17 such applicants are being offered places”.
“The remaining 17 places are being offered to Catholic children resident within the Catholic parish . . . We regret that we are unable to offer your child a place in our junior infant class for 2014.”

And here’s one more, pertaining to the opt-out policies.

irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/non-catholic-in-a-catholic-school-1.2446488

If you read at least halfway through you’ll see Muslim parents talking about how the only way to opt their kids out of Mass is to keep them home that day, and they aren’t told what time the Mass will be so they don’t have the option of doing something else for just an hour.

 

[pepipop]

Along with giving priority (at least typically) to families who live nearby, state-funded religious schools (which is 90% of primary schools in Ireland) also give priority to kids who were baptized as infants. Mainline kids get next priority, followed by other Christians, followed by non-Christian religions and then non religious families all the way at the end. There is a consistent system of prioritizing in this manner, and that is the primary reason why the UN is looking into the Irish education system.

I have no doubt that the rest of Europe allows families to opt their kids out of religious classes and religious assemblies in comparable situations, but I challenge you to find a source indicating this is the case in Ireland. I think you’ll have a harder time than you might expect.

Please read this.

irishtimes.com/news/education/for-children-with-no-baptismal-certificate-the-school-gates-seem-to-be-closed-1.1624522

And then stop it with the nonsense about how state funded religious primary schools have admissions policies that don’t discriminate based on a family’s religion. Do make sure you follow that link.

"The little Church of Ireland school, which is the nearest one to our home, has had his name on its application list since he was six weeks old. In its letter last month the board of management “regrets to inform” me that my application has been “unsuccessful”.
“Your child is currently number 177 on our waiting list . . . All offers of places were made in accordance with the school enrolment policy.”
The criteria according to which children can get in the queue are then set out. There are 11 categories, the first being “Church of Ireland children of the [local] parishes,” followed by “COI siblings/Protestant siblings” followed by COI children from outside the parishes. Next in are COI children from inter-church marriages, then other Protestant children, then other siblings, then children of inter-church marriages where the child is not COI, children of staff, Roman Catholic Children, Orthodox children and last, the category into which my son falls,
“other children”.
This school will take any child of almost any faith from anywhere in the country before they will take an unbaptised child living around the corner.
The Roman Catholic school is a little further away. My son is 117th on the waiting list. His name has been down since he was a baby, but date of application is not relevant there, the principal told me. The letter turning him away from there said siblings of current pupils were prioritised. This is understandable and “all 17 such applicants are being offered places”.
“The remaining 17 places are being offered to Catholic children resident within the Catholic parish . . . We regret that we are unable to offer your child a place in our junior infant class for 2014.”

And here’s one more, pertaining to the opt-out policies.

irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/non-catholic-in-a-catholic-school-1.2446488

If you read at least halfway through you’ll see Muslim parents talking about how the only way to opt their kids out of Mass is to keep them home that day, and they aren’t told what time the Mass will be so they don’t have the option of doing something else for just an hour.

That’s a COI school, either way they’re still very isolated cases OR may not be at all.

There are always waiting lists in cities/large towns for schools, so if it’s not religion it’ll be something else. Maybe she was just 117 on the list regardless, and there were 116 names before her.

Needless to say, I note one of the 1000 members of Atheist Ireland, (0.00025% of the population) was quoted in the article.

E.G. Ealing, London.

ealing.gov.uk/info/200561/in-year_admissions/1412/waiting_list

*The in-year admissions team maintain the waiting lists on behalf of the majority of schools in the London Borough of Ealing in line with the legally binding published admission criteria, as set out in the high school prospectus and primary school prospectus.

All new applicants received will be inserted in their preferred school waiting lists in accordance with the position determined by the admission criteria; this position is not dependent on time; the in-year admissions team has no discretion to give any priority outside the criteria.

Waiting list positions are subject to change; applicants can move up and down on the waiting list as vacancies arise and new applications are received each week.*

 

[You]

…
And then stop it with the nonsense about how state funded religious primary schools have admissions policies that don’t discriminate based on a family’s religion. Do make sure you follow that link.

"The little Church of Ireland school, which is the nearest one to our home, has had his name on its application list since he was six weeks old. In its letter last month the board of management “regrets to inform” me that my application has been “unsuccessful”.
“Your child is currently number 177 on our waiting list . . . All offers of places were made in accordance with the school enrolment policy.”
The criteria according to which children can get in the queue are then set out. There are 11 categories, the first being “Church of Ireland children of the [local] parishes,” followed by “COI siblings/Protestant siblings” followed by COI children from outside the parishes. Next in are COI children from inter-church marriages, then other Protestant children, then other siblings, then children of inter-church marriages where the child is not COI, children of staff, Roman Catholic Children, Orthodox children and last, the category into which my son falls,
“other children”.
This school will take any child of almost any faith from anywhere in the country before they will take an unbaptised child living around the corner.
The Roman Catholic school is a little further away. My son is 117th on the waiting list. His name has been down since he was a baby, but date of application is not relevant there, the principal told me. The letter turning him away from there said siblings of current pupils were prioritised. This is understandable and “all 17 such applicants are being offered places”.
“The remaining 17 places are being offered to Catholic children resident within the Catholic parish . . . We regret that we are unable to offer your child a place in our junior infant class for 2014.”

And here’s one more, pertaining to the opt-out policies.

irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/non-catholic-in-a-catholic-school-1.2446488

If you read at least halfway through you’ll see Muslim parents talking about how the only way to opt their kids out of Mass is to keep them home that day, and they aren’t told what time the Mass will be so they don’t have the option of doing something else for just an hour.

The C of I is the protestant ‘Church of Ireland’. and according to what you have written Catholic children are 8th down out of 10 on their admission policy the following two are othodox and then ‘other children’.

I would question my reasons for sending my child to a protestant church of ireland school. there are many religions in ireland, all of them find places in the state-funded free fees catholic ethos schools, most of the population of the centre of the capital city of ireland is non-irish, which personally i love but is confusing for tourists especially americans with an old irish vision of ireland. there are hardly any native irish in the capital city centre almost all are non-national black from all over the african continent, asian, far eastern, middle eastern, american, spanish, french exchange students, etc. i think all of these families have survived the very fair irish system and their children are being educated for free like all native irish children in the same schools with the same teachers and with the same curriculum.
in the US no doubt primary and secondary education must be paid by fees by the parents, but people don’t know how lucky they are to live in such a nice little country as ireland.

 

[benhur]

The same thing happens with every other religion, on planet earth. Protestantism, Islam, Judaism, etc, etc… whether it be to appease families, family pressures, cultural/traditional reasons or whatever.

Yes that is true. I did not attach the problem so much to any denomination as much as to a teaching. Catholics, Orthodox (i think) and some Protestants teach regenerative water baptism for infants. But yes, all have teachings, rites, practices that can be misconstrued, done by the disingenuous.The wheat with the tares , till He comes, again.

Blessings

 

[Reuben_J]

Thank you. Interesting. That is the trouble with attaching efficacy to baptism. Too many people do it as you say , out of pressure or tradition (from other family members,or as in Ireland, from the school setup). I personally think the folks are not lazy, but just not born again. Nothing worse than a spiritually dead person doing something religious, or at least something that makes them think they are OK when they are not, as I have been 'baptized",or my (grand) kids have been ‘baptized’. The rite/ceremony can be turned into something automatically sacramental.

I have seen even here where an infant is baptized but the parents, and godparents do not attend any church, and though not atheists have not been born of the spirit and thus have no spiritual life. The priest was aware that of the four ‘parents’ , only two were baptized in infancy but not "practicing’’ at all. Unfortunately a sticky mess, just like circumcision became for the Jews.

Blessings

When you said ‘automatically sacramental’, did you mean “routine ritual’? If you meant that, then it is not correct, regardless of whether the parents or Godparents did or did not attend church. Baptism is certainly more than that; there is a supernatural aspect to it, which only God is the decider. It is grace, an outward sign of inward grace.

Having said that and as a person who experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit (not sacramental Baptism) which dramatically changed my life, I certainly agree with you about being ‘born again’, a term Catholics do not like to use because it is too Pentecostal. We usually call it ‘renewal’ of our faith and Christian life, which we already have in the first place by virtue of our Baptism.

We already have the Holy Spirit but He is inactive, so to speak, that He needs to be stirred like the sugar in your coffee or be fanned into flame. And yes, allowing the Holy Spirit to be active in us certainly would renew our faith into new vigor.

edit: and about being lazy, for lack of better word, is a correct term and true in life. We are lazy to live the Christian life because it is not easy to do so but can be done if we are diligent and persevere even during the dry spell. Sometimes not by our own power but by the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[pepipop]

Yes that is true. I did not attach the problem so much to any denomination as much as to a teaching. Catholics, Orthodox (i think) and some Protestants teach regenerative water baptism for infants. But yes, all have teachings, rites, practices that can be misconstrued, done by the disingenuous.The wheat with the tares , till He comes, again.

Blessings

 

[badnewsbarrett]

So what? And why do you care how another country and culture chooses to educate its children?

I’ll admit that I don’t are all that much about what the Irish Catholics choose to do with the Irish Catholics. But this is a situation in which their demographics are changing in a way that causes non-Irish and non-Catholics living in Ireland to be involved, in the sense that Irish Catholic primary schools are acting in a manner that shows little to no regard to the aforementioned.

I am part Irish, but I am non-Catholic, so this involves some of my people. That’s why I might wind up caring.

Are the Irish lagging behind the rest of the world in standard of living and education?

The Irish are not lagging behind the rest of the world, but that was never the point of this thread. The point is that non-Catholic people of Irish citizenship (who may or may not be Irish by birth) are noticeably and pretty consistently disadvantaged when it comes to education, so much so that a lot of them are going through the motions of a false kind of sacramentalism just to avoid being in a situation where they will inevitably fall behind the rest of Ireland.

Explain why this is something that needs to be ‘rectified.’

Something is wrong with this situation and in needs to be fixed. There is an injustice, which is not hurting Catholics so it might be easier for Catholics to ignore, but it is an injustice nonetheless and it needs to be fixed, which is another word for “rectified.”

Bad news for you, Barrett. This is an assertion, not a fact. Back it up. Explain why you think this is “massively inappropriate.”

I have good news for you. Assertions can be perfectly factual. For example, this statement: Assertions can be perfectly factual. There it is again! It is both an assertion and a fact.

There are compelling arguments to be made to this effect- the reality of what’s happening in this situation serves to undermine certain guarantees of the Irish constitution, along with the argument that certain elements of the European Commission are being violated as well. In other words, although certain rights and freedoms are enumerated and guaranteed for all, certain aspects of this situation serve to violate them. That doesn’t tell you everything in the greatest amount of detail, but that’s basically the idea.

Even if this was the sole reason, which it is not, it would be a good enough reason. Baptism is the work of the Holy Spirit, and the beginning of faith. Why should the opportunity for eternal life be denied anyone?

Who said anything about denying anyone eternal life? I’m speaking in favor of freedom, to choose or not choose one’s religious affiliation according to one’s personal convictions and nothing else. To quote the Archbishop of Dublin, “Priests should not baptize children whose parents are just trying to get them into better schools.” broadsheet.ie/2016/01/21/baptism-of-ire/ Thank you Simca for the link. And I would also add that parents should not have to baptize their children in order to get them into good schools, especially when the schools in question are funded by the state.

No, it is not the right thing to do. Do you think that religious schools should receive no government funding? What about religious food pantries? Hospitals run by religions? How about religious people? They don’t need social security or welfare or police or fire protection or military defense – they have their church! Goodness, where will the secularism stop?

In general- God only knows when secularism will stop, it really depends on the country and the situation. But in Ireland specifically, the secularism will stop when state-funded schools lift the “religious test” aspects of admissions policy to the extent that people are no longer pressured to formally join a religion in order to secure quality education for their children, and when non-Catholic and non-religious children can consistently secure satisfactory levels of exemption from religious indoctrination against the wishes of their parents. To be clear, “satisfactory levels” are determined according to when the parents are satisfied, not according to when they are told it’s time to be satisfied.

 

[badnewsbarrett]

The C of I is the protestant ‘Church of Ireland’. and according to what you have written Catholic children are 8th down out of 10 on their admission policy the following two are othodox and then ‘other children’.

That’s a good point, I had not previously mentioned that along with the 90% of primary schools in which Catholic admissions policies show favoritism on the basis of religion (and generally seems to ignore the time at which an application is made), an additional 5% of Irish primary schools are Protestant schools that do the exact same thing in their own favor. The remaining 5%, as best I can tell, is a mixture of not-state-funded schools and something on the order of secular schools.

For an Irish atheist, though, either one of those state-funded schools is equally problematic. The main difference is they’ll drive past the Catholic type 90% of the time and the Protestant type 5% of time. For what it’s worth though, each of them are equally in need of change to their admissions policies.

 

[pepipop]

This is the UK’s admission criteria. I note they’re not being lambasted, in the international press regularly, by a handful of atheists, about state funding of ‘faith schools’.

In the last census taken in the UK 59% identified as being ‘Christian’, which is spread over all Christian denominations, and 25% identified as no religion.

In comparison, in the last Irish census, 84% identified as being ‘Catholic’, with 5% identifying as no religion - which is in keeping with the poll taken of parents in relation to Catholic schools, where 4-7% of all parents stated they wanted ‘communal schools’.

gov.uk/schools-admissions/admissions-criteria

1. Admission criteria

*All schools have admission criteria to decide which children get places.

Admission criteria are different for each school. For example, schools may give priority to children:

who have a brother or sister at the school already
who live close to the school
from a particular religion (for faith schools)
who do well in an entrance exam (for selective schools, eg grammar schools or stage schools)
who went to a particular primary school (a ‘feeder school’)
in care or being looked after (all schools must have this as a top priority)
Your local council can give you a booklet about schools’ criteria and how to apply.*

secularism.org.uk/faith-schools.html

*Faith Schools

Publicly funded religious schools, or ‘faith schools’, currently make up around a third of our education system. This limits choice for parents who do not want a religious education for their children, or do not share the faith of their local school.

In order to ensure everyone’s right to freedom of religion and belief is respected, we believe all publicly funded schools should be fully inclusive and equally welcoming to children of all religion and belief backgrounds.*

 

[badnewsbarrett]

Publicly funded religious schools, or ‘faith schools’, currently make up around a third of our education system. This limits choice for parents who do not want a religious education for their children, or do not share the faith of their local school.

One point of clarification, this situation represents a third of the Whole Entire education system, but it’s front-loaded on the primary end. 90% of primary schools, dealing only with Irish primary schools, are publicly funded Catholic schools. The percentage goes down significantly (to around half, maybe more maybe less I can’t remember) for secondary schools, and then it goes way down after that for post-secondary.

I include this clarification because the 90% figure is exactly accurate in representing what the situation is for parents, in general, who are initially enrolling very young children. Quoting the “one third of our education system” bit makes it seem as if it only affects a third of Irish people, when in fact it affects 90% of Irish people (95% if you include all “faith schools” and not just the Catholic ones), if you make the very safe assumption that every Irish child will go through primary school.

 

[Reuben_J]

The point is that non-Catholic people of Irish citizenship (who may or may not be Irish by birth) are noticeably and pretty consistently disadvantaged when it comes to education, so much so that a lot of them are going through the motions of a false kind of sacramentalism just to avoid being in a situation where they will inevitably fall behind the rest of Ireland.

What the. I doubt this. You cannot fake Baptism. I am not Irish and thus cannot say for sure what they do in Ireland but if Catholic Baptism is anything to go by, before you baptize your babies, there are lots of investigation, procedure and requirement by the Church on the parents to ensure it is indeed bonafide case for Baptism. You can call it bureaucracy, red tape, but that’s how it goes with the Catholic Church. You cannot become a Catholic easily. It is not an accept Jesus thing where you can become Christian on the spot. Sometimes it works against us because a potential convert can be just so fed up, he changes his mind.

 

[pepipop]

One point of clarification, this situation represents a third of the Whole Entire education system, but it’s front-loaded on the primary end. 90% of primary schools, dealing only with Irish primary schools, are publicly funded Catholic schools. The percentage goes down significantly (to around half, maybe more maybe less I can’t remember) for secondary schools, and then it goes way down after that for post-secondary.

I include this clarification because the 90% figure is exactly accurate in representing what the situation is for parents, in general, who are initially enrolling very young children. Quoting the “one third of our education system” bit makes it seem as if it only affects a third of Irish people, when in fact it affects 90% of Irish people (95% if you include all “faith schools” and not just the Catholic ones), if you make the very safe assumption that every Irish child will go through primary school.

All the Irish government has to do is put their money where their mouth is and build more schools around Dublin. That’s where there is a problem. Schools outwith the Dublin area are closing down due to, too low numbers. I listened to a school Principal, on radio, canvassing a month ago for parents to move out to their town, as they needed ‘a number’ of pupils to stay open, otherwise they would have to close down. I think it was approx., an 1 hour’s journey, outside Dublin.

Let the government build as many secular schools as they wish, to accommodate the 4-8% and the immigrants coming mostly to the Dublin area.

Like other Western governments they will no doubt pander to the minority, especially if it a secular ideal and then try to change the entire school system, taking over a much greater percentage of Catholic schools than parents would ever want.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

All the Irish government has to do is put their money where their mouth is and build more schools around Dublin. That’s where there is a problem.

They should. Until they can do so (as buildings can’t be erected instantaneously) those schools run by the Church – which have had pretty much a monopoly on schools in that country – should not with one hand take the tax moneys paid by believer and non-believer alike and push away non-believers’ children with the other. Then once there are schools in place to serve the needs of all children the Church can return to its preference toward children of believers.

 

[badnewsbarrett]

This New York Times article provides some interesting additional information.
nytimes.com/2016/01/22/world/europe/ireland-catholic-baptism-school.html?_r=0

Apparently, there is a growing organization called Educate Together, which is becoming the main solution that may be an alternative to all state funded schools being totally secular.

However, back in 2011, the Irish government recommended that Caholic-run schools transition at least one primary school to Educate Together status in 25 out of 43 areas across the country. Since then only eight of these schools have gone over to Educate Together, and only two of those have been vacated by the folks who run the place on behalf of the Catholic Church. The other six, I suppose, are Educate Together in name only but not in the day to day. Maybe in the preference of enrollment, I’m not totally sure on that, but either way the action taken on the ground is way less than half of what the Irish government has recommended.

Archbishop Diarmuid Martin of Dublin feels that certain people are dragging their feet, and they know who they are. He’s concerned that if the Catholic presence in public education can’t be managed properly, if progress is too slow and a middle ground is not found, specifically Catholic education will be limited to private schools and basically go away from public life. He doesn’t want that, and it looks like he wants to discourage people from being so uncompromising to a more diversified population that they lose just about everything. Bishop Eamon Martin, on the other hand, believes this doesn’t lead to anything bad very often and he “would like to think” that baptism isn’t a de facto requirement for enrollment. He also says pluralism should not be forced, but that sounds a whole lot like “I’ll drag my feet if I want to” if you ask me.

It’s kind of a no-win situation for the Catholic Church in Ireland though, you know? They’re guaranteed to lose a little something, and at the very least they’ll have to make some enrollment adjustments. They’ll also be under continued pressure to transition more primary schools to an Education Together alignment. But even worse than all that, if they dig their heels in and insist on being inflexible while ignoring the difficulties it presents for religious minorities, the Catholic Church is liable to wind up being far more thoroughly expunged from state funded schools in Ireland.

I don’t think the doomsday scenario is all that likely an outcome…although it would cause state funded Irish schools to be a whole lot like state funded schools in the United States, and that’s really not so bad. With that being said, I do think some sort of middle ground is still the most likely outcome, but some of these Irish Catholics seem determined to be obstinate and play chicken with the very thing they so badly do not want.

 

[Simca]

I don’t think the doomsday scenario is all that likely an outcome…although it would cause state funded Irish schools to be a whole lot like state funded schools in the United States, and that’s really not so bad. With that being said, I do think some sort of middle ground is still the most likely outcome, but some of these Irish Catholics seem determined to be obstinate and play chicken with the very thing they so badly do not want.

Ireland is recognizing Catholic Schools Week from January 31-February 6th.

Here is a quote from this site: catholicbishops.ie/2016/01/05/resources-for-catholic-schools-week-2016/

Catholic Schools Week is an all-Ireland annual event which invites Catholic schools to give expression in a special way to the ethos of Catholic education. It is a celebration of Catholic schools throughout Ireland, North and South which acknowledges the tremendous contribution that our Catholic primary and post-primary schools make not just to Irish society, but to the mission of the Church. Catholic Schools Week 2016 will take place from Sunday 31 January to Saturday 6 February 2016 on the theme “Catholic Schools: Challenged to Proclaim God’s Mercy”. It is hoped that this theme will help contextualise the Extraordinary Jubilee Year of Mercy proclaimed by Pope Francis from 8 December 2015 to 20 November 2016.

I, for one, am glad that Ireland is full of Catholic schools which are being encouraged to proclaim God’s mercy.