Irenaeus on creation before the fall

[E_CT]

What is irenaeus’ view of the working before the fall. From what I read in his writings “On Apostolic Preaching” and “Against Heresies” it seems to be that creation and man was created Imperfect and was to become perfect. Man was placed in paradise which irenaeus believed to be located not on earth, it was meant for man to grow in but he was placed back on earth because of original sin. So in Against Heresies book 4 chapter 38 irenaeus says man and created creatures (physical creation) was made imperfect as created things cannot be created perfect. But in book 5 chapters 32 and 34 he mentions that after the resurrection the earth will return to its “primordial” or “pristine condition.” Does anyone know how to reconcile these views and what he means by primordial condition and pristine condition. When looking at his depiction of the world before the fall it was not perfect, but would eventually be and that the fall did not affect it but made man mortal by being cast out of “paradise.”

 

[dscath]

it seems to be that creation and man was created Imperfect and was to become perfect.

Yes. Not that much of a radical thought by Fathers of the Church, Athanasius claimed , "“For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.”

 

[E_CT]

My examination is with how he saw it as imperfect while many today see it as created as perfect then imperfect then perfect again. The problem I had is with interpreting the “primeval” and “pristine condition” that he mentions how that interpreted and how it is reconciled with a imperfect creation that will become perfect.

 

[Vico]

E_CT:

it seems to be that creation and man was created Imperfect and was to become perfect.

Yes. Not that much of a radical thought by Fathers of the Church, Athanasius claimed , "“For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.”

And Saint Irenaeus:

“For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.”

And Catechism:

302 Creation has its own goodness and proper perfection, but it did not spring forth complete from the hands of the Creator. The universe was created “in a state of journeying” (in statu viae ) toward an ultimate perfection yet to be attained, to which God has destined it. …

 

[JGD]

It’s not that man was created imperfect. The human nature God created in Adam and Eve was perfect - but it was not “divinized” - they were not created “partaker’s of the divine nature” (cf. 2 Peter 1:4). They had to merit that gift. When they chose Satan over God they lost the bestowal of that gift; they were denied the right to eat the fruit of the “tree of life” - eternal Divine life. (Gen. 3:22-24)

 

[E_CT]

I agree with you, most people just say imperfect so I did not think of a way to say it. They were obviously created how God wanted them to be but both them and creation did not reach their potential, I guess is a way to put it.

 

[E_CT]

So what I see is that pristine/primeval condition means the condition where there is no sin and creation is able to achieve it’s perfect as it is not put off because of sin. Man was to subdue the earth and the primeval condition was where he could do so but now he can’t. That’s how I took it.

 

[Vico]

So what I see is that pristine/primeval condition means the condition where there is no sin and creation is able to achieve it’s perfect as it is not put off because of sin. Man was to subdue the earth and the primeval condition was where he could do so but now he can’t. That’s how I took it.

It seems to be also what is said in the Catechism:

376 By the radiance of this grace all dimensions of man’s life were confirmed. As long as he remained in the divine intimacy, man would not have to suffer or die.252 The inner harmony of the human person, the harmony between man and woman,253 and finally the harmony between the first couple and all creation, comprised the state called “original justice”.

379 This entire harmony of original justice, foreseen for man in God’s plan, will be lost by the sin of our first parents.

 

[EloyCraft]

St. Paul taught that futility and decay were willed in hope…that man would save it from that.

Romans 8: 20
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

 

[JGD]

Yes, you could put it that way.
Of course, their sin did cause defects in the original perfect human nature God created.

CCC 404-405

404 … But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin , but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state . …

405 …but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called “concupiscence”. …

 

[Wesrock]

I am speculating, but “perfect” in this context probably means completed or fulfilled and having fully reached its final end. I would not therefore read not-yet-perfect as being in opposition to it being pristine.

 

[E_CT]

I would think of pristine as no sin, or how God intended it to be.

 

[E_CT]

Didn’t think of it as original justice, interesting to read about the concept in writings before Aquinas, obviously it was there but no one called it that.

 

[Vico]

Didn’t think of it as original justice, interesting to read about the concept in writings before Aquinas, obviously it was there but no one called it that.

The terminology used does change through the ages, yet the concept of the first parents being in a state of sanctifying grace was confirmed against various heresies.

The quality of being virtuous, called integrity, was present before the Fall. At the Council of Orange II (529) this canon was given:

Can. 19. “That no one is saved except by God’s mercy. Even if human nature remained in that integrity in which it was formed, it would in no way save itself without the help of its Creator; therefore, since without the grace of God it cannot guard the health which it received, how without the grace of God will it be able to recover what it has lost?”

Reference – Denzinger, original numbering 192: Denzinger - English translation, older numbering

 

[E_CT]

Yes I understand terminology changes, such as Augustine being, I believe, the first to call the first sin original sin. We also of course get a better understanding of doctrine over time such as with the trinity and we develop terms for these concepts that we come to understand.

 

[Vico]

Yes I understand terminology changes, such as Augustine being, I believe, the first to call the first sin original sin. We also of course get a better understanding of doctrine over time such as with the trinity and we develop terms for these concepts that we come to understand.

Wisdom 10 (NRSVCE)

1 Wisdom protected the first-formed father of the world, when he alone had been created;
she delivered him from his transgression,

2 Esdras (KJV)

4:30 For the grain of evil seed hath been sown in the heart of Adam from the beginning, and how much ungodliness hath it brought up unto this time? and how much shall it yet bring forth until the time of threshing come?