Irish bishop: consider married priesthood, female deacons [CWN]

[CWN_News]

An Irish bishop said that he will ask his brother bishops to institute a commission to study the possible ordination of married men to the priesthood and women to the diaconate. "I …

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[Pulvis]

catholicherald.co.uk/news/2015/06/10/be-careful-not-to-widen-your-conscience-so-everything-fits-pope-warns/

"Pope Francis has said that there is a risk of Christians being too open to the world and “widening the conscience so much that everything fits in there.”

During a Mass in the chapel of the Domus Sanctae Marthae yesterday, Pope Francis said that being too much of the world and too ambiguous is seen in Christians who “cannot and do not know how to give witness to Jesus Christ.” He cautioned against the faithful telling themselves: “yes we are Christians but this is OK.”

Jesus “became man and died out of obedience,” the Pope said, and “this is identity and there lies witness.”

He asked that people pray for God’s gift of identity and not try to water it down, put it on the wrong track or mould it to the things of the world."

 

[Micosil]

While having married men as priests in the Latin rite at this stage would be difficult, one has to remember it most certainly isn’t something that’s against Tradition with an upper-case T, as there’s Eastern rite Catholic Churches in full communion with Rome that allow married men to be ordained into the priesthood.

As far as deaconesses go … the issue is, a deaconess need not be an ordained minister of Holy Orders, unlike the male deacon. Note the bishop’s language from the original article:

Bishop Leo O’Reilly has said he is “liaising” with other bishops with a view to setting up a commission to discuss the possibility of ordaining married men to the priesthood as well as appointing female deacons.

(Emphasis mine).

Notice he said appointing, and not ordaining, so it doesn’t seem he is referring to a truly ordained member of Holy Orders.

I wanted to clarify all this because there may come a time when a minority of people read the headline and automatically assume bishop Leo O’Reilly is some sort of liberal “heretic”, and that doesn’t seem to the case.

 

[JesusPeaceLove]

We can ordain some of those holy married catholics, the peter kreefts and scott hahns of the church who are already engaged in ministry at a lay capacity. There are so many wonderful educated protestant pastors coming into the church. They would just need a bit more training and holy orders and they would be wonderful IMO, having already been called to minister flocks for Christ and possessing a wealth of experience as pastors. I pray we can be flexible enough in the Latin rite to have a sort of parallel line of married priests along with the celibate. They will probably never be Bishops, unless under very exceptional circumstances, but lets not forget that our first pope St. Peter was a married, family man.

But it is impossible to ordain women as deacons, just as it is to ordain them priests. Holy orders are strictly male and this is tradition with a capita T. So I don’t understand why a Bishop is suggesting the impossible as a solution. Women are the majority of ministers to christ’s flock, but they don’t have to violate the divine institution of Holy orders to minister. Our mothers Mary Mother of God, St Mary Magdalene and the Holy Women ministered to Christ and his apostles and the church without having to force their way into the roles of the apostles. Women today should look to them and not to feminists as models of christian feminine ministering.

 

[_Abyssinia]

Some background documents and such regarding female deacons:

The Code of Canon Law makes clear that ordination, including to the diaconate, is validly received only by “a baptized male,” and John Paul II’s 1994 apostolic letter “Ordinatio sacerdotalis” teaches definitevly that only men may be ordained priests.

On May 29, 2008, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith decreed that whoever “shall have attempted to confer holy orders on a woman” – including necessarily the diaconate – “as well as the woman who may have attempted to receive holy orders, incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.”

Fr. Hauke noted that in 2003, the International Theological Commission “published a document with evidence that we have no historical basis for the sacramental diaconate being bestowed on women.”

And in September 2001, the prefects of the Congregations for the Doctrine of the Faith (Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope emeritus Benedict), of Divine Worship, and of Clerics prepared a document, which was approved by John Paul II. It affirmed that “it is not licit to put in place initiatives which in some way aim to prepare female candidates for diaconal ordination,” according to the Italian paper La Stampa.

catholicherald.co.uk/news/2015/06/11/irish-bishop-calls-for-commission-on-the-ordination-of-married-men/#.VXloheS8nRY.twitter

 

[Micosil]

But it is impossible to ordain women as deacons, just as it is to ordain them priests. Holy orders are strictly male and this is tradition with a capita T. So I don’t understand why a Bishop is suggesting the impossible as a solution.

Some background documents and such regarding female deacons:

catholicherald.co.uk/news/2015/06/11/irish-bishop-calls-for-commission-on-the-ordination-of-married-men/#.VXloheS8nRY.twitter

Apparently my post wasn’t read.

It really won’t be a problem if female deaconesses are appointed, as opposed to ordained into Holy Orders (the latter is simply not possible; the Sacrament of Holy Orders requires a baptized male for it to be valid, and a sacrament’s requirements for validity can’t randomly change over time; canon law can change as to what makes it illicit or licit, but that won’t change the sacrament’s requirements for efficaciousness or validity).

Remember that in the past there did exist deaconesses yet these were not ordained into Holy Orders.

The Apostolic Constitutions expressly attribute to them the duty of guarding the doors and maintaining order amongst those of their own sex in the church, and they also (II, c. 26) assign to them the office of acting as intermediaries between the clergy and the women of the congregation; but on the other hand, it is laid down (Const. Apost., VIII, 27) that “the deaconess gives no blessing, she fulfills no function of priest or deacon”, and there can be no doubt that the extravagances permitted in some places, especially in the churches of Syria and Asia, were in contravention of the canons generally accepted.

newadvent.org/cathen/04651a.htm

 

[_Abyssinia]

Oops the source for my above post is

catholicnewsagency.com/news/theologian-dismisses-call-for-women-deacons/

 

[Micosil]

Oops the source for my above post is

catholicnewsagency.com/news/theologian-dismisses-call-for-women-deacons/

From that article,

These deaconesses were servants of the Church but were not sacramental deacons, as there is no mention of a bishop laying hands on them in an act of ordination.

:banghead:

That is patently false and historically wrong!

From newadvent.org/cathen/04651a.htm

Further it is certain that a ritual was in use for the ordination of deaconesses by the laying on of hands which was closely modeled on the ritual for the ordination of a deacon. For example, the Apostolic Constitutions say:

Concerning a deaconess, I, Bartholomew enjoin O Bishop, thou shalt lay thy hands upon her with all the Presbytery and the Deacons and the Deaconesses and thou shalt say: Eternal God, the Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ, the creator of man and woman, that didst fill with the Spirit Mary and Deborah, and Anna and Huldah, that didst not disdain that thine only begotten Son should be born of a woman; Thou that in the tabernacle of witness and in the temple didst appoint women guardians of thy holy gates: Do thou now look on this thy handmaid, who is appointed unto the office of a Deaconess and grant unto her the Holy Spirit, and cleanse her from all pollution of the flesh and of the spirit, that she may worthily accomplish the work committed unto her, to thy glory and the praise of thy Christ.

So while there was a laying on of hands and a sort of “ordination”, it did not mean sacramental ordination into Holy Orders, for the New Advent article continues with,

Comparing this form with that given in the same work with that for the ordination of deacons we may notice that the reference to the outpouring of Holy Ghost in the latter case is much more strongly worded: “fill him with the spirit and with power as thou didst fill Stephen the martyr and follower of the sufferings of thy Christ”. Moreover, in the case of the deacon, prayer is made that he “may be counted worthy of a higher standing”, a clause which not improbably has reference to the possibility of advance to a higher ecclesiastical dignity as priest or bishop, no such praise being used in the case of the deaconess.

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

We can ordain some of those holy married catholics, the peter kreefts and scott hahns of the church who are already engaged in ministry at a lay capacity. There are so many wonderful educated protestant pastors coming into the church. They would just need a bit more training and holy orders and they would be wonderful IMO, having already been called to minister flocks for Christ and possessing a wealth of experience as pastors. I pray we can be flexible enough in the Latin rite to have a sort of parallel line of married priests along with the celibate. They will probably never be Bishops, unless under very exceptional circumstances, but lets not forget that our first pope St. Peter was a married, family man.

But it is impossible to ordain women as deacons, just as it is to ordain them priests. Holy orders are strictly male and this is tradition with a capita T. So I don’t understand why a Bishop is suggesting the impossible as a solution. Women are the majority of ministers to christ’s flock, but they don’t have to violate the divine institution of Holy orders to minister. Our mothers Mary Mother of God, St Mary Magdalene and the Holy Women ministered to Christ and his apostles and the church without having to force their way into the roles of the apostles. Women today should look to them and not to feminists as models of christian feminine ministering.

In addition to the lay ministers you mentioned and the Protestant pastors, do not overlook experienced deacons who have proven themselves in ministry, who require neither housing nor financial support from the church, whose children are grown and whose spouses have already adjusted to the demands of ministry.

 

[_Abyssinia]

From that article,

:banghead:

That is patently false and historically wrong!

From newadvent.org/cathen/04651a.htm

So while there was a laying on of hands and a sort of “ordination”, it did not mean sacramental ordination into Holy Orders, for the New Advent article continues with,

According to Dr William Caroll and citing also a different link to the New Advent website, the Apostolic Constitution has not been accepted by the Catholic Church as authoritive. Read here:

ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage_print.asp?number=329289&language=en

I am not 100% sure how the text regarding the laying of hands and deaconesses should be taken. Does anybody know more about this and the Apostolic Constitutions?

 

[JesusPeaceLove]

Apparently my post wasn’t read.

It really won’t be a problem if female deaconesses are appointed, as opposed to ordained into Holy Orders (the latter is simply not possible; the Sacrament of Holy Orders requires a baptized male for it to be valid, and a sacrament’s requirements for validity can’t randomly change over time; canon law can change as to what makes it illicit or licit, but that won’t change the sacrament’s requirements for efficaciousness or validity).

Remember that in the past there did exist deaconesses yet these were not ordained into Holy Orders.

newadvent.org/cathen/04651a.htm

Your post was read. We may not call them deaconesses today, but women ministers exist in many parishes I know doing the same work these ancient deaconesses did. But these women are being suggested as some sort of solution to priestly shortage. This can only mean they are intended to largely perform or fill the roles of holy orders. Pope Benedict has said that it is wrong to treat women as though they are being prepared for holy orders. So I disagree with you about what is being suggested.