Irish Catholic Blues

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HabemusFrancis

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Hi everyone.

I am an American Irish Catholic. (Most) of my ancestors left Ireland from about 1845- 1915.

From What I have read about Ireland, they seem to have gotten out just in nick of time!

I just feel so sad when I read about the Catholic abuse scandals in Ireland. In some ways it seems far, far worse then the USA situation.

Just the combined nature of the Magdalene asylums (where girls were sent without any form of legal process) the industrial schools (where boys and girls could go for being poor or petty shoplifting) to the big priest sex abuse stuff. Its a country I like so much, but feel sad about how seemingly corrupt its democratic government and Church leadership were.😦

I think part of the problem was that the Church was TOO powerful. Too powerful in the sense that its clergy at times thought of themselves as superior and above the laws of the state. The culture and attitudes of 1920s-70s Catholic Ireland seemed to forbid but be preoccupied by sex to a startling degree. It seems so wrong and unchristian that women had to go be laundry slaves for life just for getting pregnant or even being too much of a flirt!

Compared to pre 70s Ireland, even Franco’s Spain and Salazar’s Portugal seem like kind and gentle places ( especially Salazars Portugal.)

Ironically, crazily, Irish society seems to be a much better place since people have become less religious. The Irish Church as well.

Could it be that Seperation of Church and state might actually be a wonderful thing for both entities? What do y’all think?
 
HabemusFrancis said:
Hi everyone.

I am an American Irish Catholic. (Most) of my ancestors left Ireland from about 1845- 1915.

From What I have read about Ireland, they seem to have gotten out just in nick of time!

I just feel so sad when I read about the Catholic abuse scandals in Ireland. In some ways it seems far, far worse then the USA situation.

Just the combined nature of the Magdalene asylums (where girls were sent without any form of legal process) the industrial schools (where boys and girls could go for being poor or petty shoplifting) to the big priest sex abuse stuff. Its a country I like so much, but feel sad about how seemingly corrupt its democratic government and Church leadership were.😦

I think part of the problem was that the Church was TOO powerful. Too powerful in the sense that its clergy at times thought of themselves as superior and above the laws of the state. The culture and attitudes of 1920s-70s Catholic Ireland seemed to forbid but be preoccupied by sex to a startling degree. It seems so wrong and unchristian that women had to go be laundry slaves for life just for getting pregnant or even being too much of a flirt!

Compared to pre 70s Ireland, even Franco’s Spain and Salazar’s Portugal seem like kind and gentle places ( especially Salazars Portugal.)

Ironically, crazily, Irish society seems to be a much better place since people have become less religious. The Irish Church as well.

Could it be that Seperation of Church and state might actually be a wonderful thing for both entities? What do y’all think?
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My grandparents came over form Ireland in the 1950’s. I’ve asked why they left and they said the “opportunity to live our faith without fear”. My grandparents are devote Irish Catholic but they said that where they were living (Cork), the church seemed to rule the people with an iron fist. It seems to have calmed down now but apparently, like you have mentioned, the irish took advantage of their church positions.

I think the church and Ireland itself and fine now and don’t need to be separated but what I am most worried about is the conflict near the irish border.
 
ok so everyone wants to have a pop at the Church in Ireland…sure why not?..fortunately we the Faithful will carry on despite the insults and criticisms…every society has it’s dirty little secrets and hidden shames…our’s has been exposed Thank God…we Irish will do our penance for our sins and the sins of our forefathers (and yours!!)…Satan is attacking us from all sides- gay marriage,abortion (freely available in your country though)…but we continue to trust in God and His love plus we have the consolation of knowing that the gates of hell will not prevail against His Church.
PS I will pray that you will gain the courage to jump off your fence (agnosticism) and help us in our struggle ----Dia Duit!
 
remind me again how million babaies are murdered* legally *in the USA every year.

seems you should start looking at your self before demonizing Ireland. Americans are poorly thought of worldwide because of the war on terror what ever that is. how many innocent children have died and will die in this continuing phoney war.
 
Your right TarsusPaddy, the USA is not without fault.

I just think pre 1970s Ireland is a good example of why Church and state need to be seperated and why rule of law and strong civic institutions are essential to making a good country.

I think it is pretty clear why Church attendance in the USA is far better than in many western European countries. Because the Catholic Church has never had temporal power in USA and thus little chance to abuse it, and thus is not associated with power structure.

Just look at Spain in the 1930s. During Spanish civil war between 25-30% of the population ( and at least 1/2 of the Republican side) were explicitly anti-God and anti-religion. This probably was because the Church was very involved in Spanish power structure. In USA today there are not nearly that many atheists, much less the USA of 1930s!:eek:

By contrast in Poland, which was heavily oppressed by Communists and Nazis until 20 years ago, the faith is relatively strong, since the Church is seen as a force for good and not corruption.

What I find remarkable about Ireland, is how uniformly cruel the magdalene nuns and Irish christian brothers were to the vulnerable people in their care. Like Ive rarely heard that the nuns or monks at some institutions were strict, but at their hearts good people… no not at all…😦

The magdalene nuns appear to have been very exploitive and money grubbing, and content to condemn women to lives of slavery and ignorance. Among the brothers at those boys orphanages, it seems that being physically and sexualyl abusive were practically job requirements!:eek::eek:

I think the biggest obstacle for the Church regaining prominence in Ireland is the recent memory of how terribly it tended to act when it had universal admiration and respect, and was powerful enough to make offers that could not be refused.

Hopefully something will be figured out…

Btw, am I incorrect about Franco and Salazar. Were those countries any better/worse/ about the same as pre 70s Ireland?
 
HabemusFrancis said:
Hi everyone.

I am an American Irish Catholic. (Most) of my ancestors left Ireland from about 1845- 1915.

From What I have read about Ireland, they seem to have gotten out just in nick of time!

I just feel so sad when I read about the Catholic abuse scandals in Ireland. In some ways it seems far, far worse then the USA situation.

Just the combined nature of the Magdalene asylums (where girls were sent without any form of legal process) the industrial schools (where boys and girls could go for being poor or petty shoplifting) to the big priest sex abuse stuff. Its a country I like so much, but feel sad about how seemingly corrupt its democratic government and Church leadership were.😦

I think part of the problem was that the Church was TOO powerful. Too powerful in the sense that its clergy at times thought of themselves as superior and above the laws of the state. The culture and attitudes of 1920s-70s Catholic Ireland seemed to forbid but be preoccupied by sex to a startling degree. It seems so wrong and unchristian that women had to go be laundry slaves for life just for getting pregnant or even being too much of a flirt!

Compared to pre 70s Ireland, even Franco’s Spain and Salazar’s Portugal seem like kind and gentle places ( especially Salazars Portugal.)

Ironically, crazily, Irish society seems to be a much better place since people have become less religious. The Irish Church as well.

Dear Agnostic,
Its easy to see by your comments that you are an Agnostic, am Irish and living in Dublin, plainly the field in the other meadow is greener, but you would want to see the field without the rose tinted glasses, we need very holy priests, priests with fire for the Lord, priests going around in the collar not with a shirt and sweater, as for nuns all I can do and stay charitable is give a grunt, going around just like I dress, smart blonde who wears nice clothes, do they look like nuns, no, do they act like nuns, only the Lord knows, comparing them to the Orthodox nuns, they don’t, we need priests that are on EWTN Fr. Wade a definite yes, yes, Fr. Anthony, Fr. Mitch there the sort of priests we need at the moment multiplied by 200. Am going to write to the Holy Father about the whole situation here in Ireland, the Church needs to do a lot more, maybe we could borrow Cardinal Dolan his parents or grandparents were Irish to give the Irish a good kick up the …to put them in gear again.:signofcross:

]
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I am not Irish, but have been there, and was gobsmacked by just how Catholic the general culture there is! It is a shame the Church has gone into somewhat of an abeyance there.

But probably inevitable. What has happened there is analogous, though less brutal than the patterns in France, Mexico and other places where the Church has held or exercised State power. Inevitably everybody gets tired of the nonaccountable wielders of that power.

Christ did not come to found a state, nor to teach how to operate one. While “church state separation” probably should not be as hard bound as it has been in the USA, they are two different bodies, and should not be sutured together.

ICXC NIKA
 
Yes I agree on Church and State should be different, that is why we have so many problems with the likes of Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, with this Sharia law, which is State law also, and Saudi because they are both one.:signofcross:
 
problem here in Ireland is that some government members are so called Catholics outside the legislature doors and anti-Catholic inside. They are trying to justify legalising gay marriage and abortion and feel perfectly ok approaching the altar rail on Sunday morning to receive the Blessed Eucharist…they haven’t the courage to resign on moral grounds…so you see the calibre of political leaders we must endure here.
Incidentally the massive majority of girls who went to the so called Magdalene laundries were put there by their own families out of misplaced shame…ergo the vultures of the Magdalene nuns had their victims presented to them by the girls’ own mums and dads…ergo it must be remembered that amongst the vultures lived the beautiful doves who lived out their Christian vocation in sympathy with the girls. Likewise the Christian Brothers Order was populated by very holy men and in their midst too resided a few cowboys who wouldn’t have been out of place in San Quentin…I was educated by the Christian Bros in Belfast and have no complaints…yes they were tough but they made me into who I am today Thank God
GOD SAVE IRELAND,AMEN
 
I dont mean all christian brothers. Just the ones at those industrial schools/ orphanges.
 
IMO some of those in power in Ireland (both Church and State) learned their lessons well from the English, who did not leave the 26 counties until the late 1920’s. Two of my great-grandfathers left Ireland about 1870. :):gopray::knight1::irish1:
 
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