Iron Guard of Romania

[Latinitas]

Hi CAF community,

I found this article about the Iron Guard: alternativeright.com/blog/2013/9/13/codreanu-and-the-warrior-ethos

While I realize that the Iron Guard was Eastern Orthodox, not Catholic, the sacrificing, or even worse, martyring, of your immortal soul to hell for the ‘greater good’ of others sounds blasphemous. St. Ignatius says that everything exists for the glorification of God and the salvation of our souls - each of us. Consider Acts 5:29

The reason I bring this up is that many Catholic movements, such as Falangism, took their inspiration from this - but this point sounds absolutely absurd and terrible.

What should I think about this?

Benedicat Deus
Latinitas

 

[George_Stegmeir]

Don’t think about it! The past is past. Just try to lead as good a life as you can.
With regards to politics and social action: I come from an immigrant family, and had close blood relatives in every army and insurgent force in WW II-except the Japanese and Indian armies. I had relatives who perished in the NAZI death camps and I had family members who were high ranking members of the party. Because of this conflict, my parents left Europe in the late 1920’s.
One thing my father taught me is to never, ever sign a petition-no matter what the issue is; because what may seem the right thing to do today can, and usually will come back to haunt you or even harm you 20 years later.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Hi CAF community,

I found this article about the Iron Guard: alternativeright.com/blog/2013/9/13/codreanu-and-the-warrior-ethos

While I realize that the Iron Guard was Eastern Orthodox, not Catholic, the sacrificing, or even worse, martyring, of your immortal soul to hell for the ‘greater good’ of others sounds blasphemous. St. Ignatius says that everything exists for the glorification of God and the salvation of our souls - each of us. Consider Acts 5:29

The reason I bring this up is that many Catholic movements, such as Falangism, took their inspiration from this - but this point sounds absolutely absurd and terrible.

What should I think about this?

Benedicat Deus
Latinitas

There seems to be a big moral inconsistency here. I don’t see how a person goes to hell for the “greater good”. God is just.

I guess if they intend to go to hell, that may be different, but if they are loyally serving the people of the state, that’s a hard sell for eternal damnation from where I am sitting.

Jesus calls us to serve to one another, after all.

 

[Latinitas]

There seems to be a big moral inconsistency here. I don’t see how a person goes to hell for the “greater good”. God is just.

I guess if they intend to go to hell, that may be different, but if they are loyally serving the people of the state, that’s a hard sell for eternal damnation from where I am sitting.

Jesus calls us to serve to one another, after all.

I agree, although, according to them, one may be called to murder someone, and die doing it and be damned, for the “good” of the state. That’s sounds utterly …wrong. I thought we owed God allegiance above any other, even the state. I’m surprise the Romanian Orthodox Church supported this movement, because the view of the Iron Guard seems heretical on this matter.

I still need clarification on this,
Benedicat Deus,
Latinitas

 

[vames]

I’m surprise the Romanian Orthodox Church supported this movement, because the view of the Iron Guard seems heretical on this matter.

As the official church of the state, the Romanian Orthodox Church opposed their violent methods and condemned their idea to justify political crimes as “sacrifices”. The hierarchy of the Orthodox Church supported only the anti-atheist and anti-communist stance of the Legion (for ex. when groups of legionnaires went to fight in the Spanish Civil War), but not their rebellion against the Romanian state.

Of course the legionnaires didn’t intend to go to hell - the idea was to “defend the nation” even if this “defense” meant to kill their enemies, which they knew that it was a sin, because the canons of the Orthodox Church forbid a person who killed someone from taking Communion for a number of years even if the person acted in legitimate defense. And some legionnaires were priests themselves, so they knew the canons very well. The whole discussion of “sacrificing their eternal happiness” was meant to emphasize that they were aware about the sin committed.

 

[Latinitas]

As the official church of the state, the Romanian Orthodox Church opposed their violent methods and condemned their idea to justify political crimes as “sacrifices”. The hierarchy of the Orthodox Church supported only the anti-atheist and anti-communist stance of the Legion (for ex. when groups of legionnaires went to fight in the Spanish Civil War), but not their rebellion against the Romanian state.

Of course the legionnaires didn’t intend to go to hell - the idea was to “defend the nation” even if this “defense” meant to kill their enemies, which they knew that it was a sin, because the canons of the Orthodox Church forbid a person who killed someone from taking Communion for a number of years even if the person acted in legitimate defense. And some legionnaires were priests themselves, so they knew the canons very well. The whole discussion of “sacrificing their eternal happiness” was meant to emphasize that they were aware about the sin committed.

This is good to know. Nonetheless, sinning for the state is not something I would think that the Catholics or Orthodox Christians would condone. Sure, they didn’t want to go to hell, but that they were even willing to do so for the state is troublesome.

Benedicat Deus,
Latinitas

 

[weller2]

because the canons of the Orthodox Church forbid a person who killed someone from taking Communion for a number of years even if the person acted in legitimate defense. And some legionnaires were priests themselves, so they knew the canons very well. The whole discussion of “sacrificing their eternal happiness” was meant to emphasize that they were aware about the sin committed.

At the same time, on the other side of the world, another branch of Christianity was busy perfecting the art of rationalizing the evil:

As a Catholic chaplain I watched as the Boxcar, piloted by a good Irish Catholic pilot, dropped the bomb on Urakami Cathedral in Nagasaki, the center of Catholicism in Japan.

I never preached a single sermon against killing civilians to the men who were doing it. I was brainwashed! It never entered my mind to protest publicly the consequences of these massive air raids. I was told it was necessary – told openly by the military and told implicitly by my Church’s leadership. (To the best of my knowledge no American cardinals or bishops were opposing these mass air raids. Silence in such matters is a stamp of approval.)

archive.lewrockwell.com/orig6/zabelka1.html

 

[vames]

This is good to know. Nonetheless, sinning for the state is not something I would think that the Catholics or Orthodox Christians would condone. Sure, they didn’t want to go to hell, but that they were even willing to do so for the state is troublesome.

It was not sinning for the state - the state is a secular concept, so it doesn’t deserve any sacrifices, not to mention dying for it. By contrast, the nation was for them something mystical, sacred, eternal, the collective heritage and collective Orthodox soul whose preservation and defense is a sacred mission and transcends the interest of an individual or generation. Corneliu Zelea Codreanu used Revelation 21: 24-26 (“And the nations shall walk in the light of it… And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it”) to justify this idea that each individual and generation has a duty before God to work and fight for the “redemption of our nation”. That’s why he said to the legionnaires: you should forgive those who have wronged you, but you should punish those who have wronged our nation (our collective soul) and should prevent them from threatening its life.

 

[vames]

At the same time, on the other side of the world, another branch of Christianity was busy perfecting the art of rationalizing the evil:

Good point, thanks for posting it. As the priest says, “Those who have seen real war will bear me out. I assure you, it is not of Christ. It is not Christ’s way. There is no way to conduct real war in conformity with the teachings of Jesus. There is no way to train people for real war in conformity with the teachings of Jesus”. He finally understood it… better later than never.

 

[Latinitas]

It was not sinning for the state - the state is a secular concept, so it doesn’t deserve any sacrifices, not to mention dying for it. By contrast, the nation was for them something mystical, sacred, eternal, the collective heritage and collective Orthodox soul whose preservation and defense is a sacred mission and transcends the interest of an individual or generation. Corneliu Zelea Codreanu used Revelation 21: 24-26 (“And the nations shall walk in the light of it… And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it”) to justify this idea that each individual and generation has a duty before God to work and fight for the “redemption of our nation”. That’s why he said to the legionnaires: you should forgive those who have wronged you, but you should punish those who have wronged our nation (our collective soul) and should prevent them from threatening its life.

Exactly: but sacrificing yourself for the state, when that sacrifice is directly contrary to the law of God, is absolutely forbidden. My point is that sinning is never a proper action, not for the supposed greater good of a person, nation or whatever. Consider Mk. 8:36.

The nation is most certainly not our collective soul. The Church is.

I know the Orthodox Church does not condone damning yourself for any reason, but nonetheless, it’s scary to think that someone could use the religion to promote doing that.

In all charity,
Benedicat Deus,
Latinitas

 

[vames]

The nation is most certainly not our collective soul. The Church is.

The problem begins precisely when one draws the equivalence church = nation and begins to think that to be X (member of a nation - Romanian, American, Greek, Irish) IS to be Y (member of a religion - Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, Muslim). This is what these guys thought: someone who is not Orthodox can’t be a “good Romanian” and deserves to be suspected or kicked out or killed. This is the real sickness of such a mindset.

The article linked in the OP emphasizes the idea of sacrificing one’s eternal happiness because this is an intellectual novelty and spotting such novelties is pleasant for any historian, but the reality is that those guys were simply more honest than other extremists, because they didn’t try to claim that killing people for a perceived greater good can surely lead you to heaven (as opposed to the mindset of a Muslim terrorist or a Christian crusader). In practice, they hoped that their “sacrifice” would be eventually appreciated by God and that maybe they would be somehow “redeemed” as fighters for the cause of church = nation. So yes, unfortunately the possibilities of using religion as a pretext and twisting its teachings are endless.

 

[Latinitas]

The problem begins precisely when one draws the equivalence church = nation and begins to think that to be X (member of a nation - Romanian, American, Greek, Irish) IS to be Y (member of a religion - Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, Muslim). This is what these guys thought: someone who is not Orthodox can’t be a “good Romanian” and deserves to be suspected or kicked out or killed. This is the real sickness of such a mindset.

The article linked in the OP emphasizes the idea of sacrificing one’s eternal happiness because this is an intellectual novelty and spotting such novelties is pleasant for any historian, but the reality is that those guys were simply more honest than other extremists, because they didn’t try to claim that killing people for a perceived greater good can surely lead you to heaven (as opposed to the mindset of a Muslim terrorist or a Christian crusader). In practice, they hoped that their “sacrifice” would be eventually appreciated by God and that maybe they would be somehow “redeemed” as fighters for the cause of church = nation. So yes, unfortunately the possibilities of using religion as a pretext and twisting its teachings are endless.

Exactly. Although, I must say that I don’t look upon all the Crusaders badly. The idea that damning oneself can bring any greater good is utter folly. Sacrificing yourself has no meaning in eternity. Our eternal self-interest should not be sacrificed for anything. There was an old question, “would you be damned for the glory of God?” - the correct answer is that if being damned was the way in which I could glorify God the greatest, then it would not be damnation.

I appreciate your thoughts on this; I know you weren’t defending them.

Benedicat Deus,
Latinitas

 

[vames]

Exactly. Although, I must say that I don’t look upon all the Crusaders badly.

Neither do I; I realize that they couldn’t think “like us”. I was very impressed when I found out that the wonderful idea of the Porziuncola indulgence was proposed by St Francis as a peaceful alternative to the usual way of gaining a plenary indulgence - by going to fight as crusaders for conquering the Holy Land.

As for “would you be damned for the glory of God?”, of course God doesn’t demand anyone to damn himself for His glory or for any other imaginable purpose