Irrefutable pro-life argument

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flyingfish said:
Self awareness is a very specific kind of thing, it’s the “I think therefore I am”. Just because an animal reacts to its surroundings, doesn’t mean it’s self aware. Basic machines also react to surroundings. My computer reacts to my pressing buttons on it.
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I find it very unlikely that a bear, a dog or a cat has absolutely no self awareness whatsoever. You ever see a dog react after it’s master yells at him. I see shame in it’s eyes. I knew a dog who killed my brother’s kitten by accident and ran to the closet shaking because it knew what it had done. This is not the reaction a machine or a mosquito would make.

There was a mirror test done about ‘self awareness’ where animals or babies were put in front of the mirror marking them with two odourless dye spots. Pigs and elephants and gorillas and orcas passed this test among a few others. An 18 month old baby passed it but not a newborn. I can see the world now removing all rights to babies till they are a year and a half because their ‘self awareness’ is not present according to this test. Of course as I stated earlier, there are degrees of it and it appears that this mirror test is higher on the scale.
flyingfish said:
By the way, this is not such an outrageous point of view. Quite a few people think it’s acceptable to kill offenders that are after your property, not even after anything alive.
As far as I know, national park workers in Africa will kill poachers even if they’re after less complex animals.
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It’s still outrageous to me. Stating that some society elsewhere acepts this behaviour doesn’t change a thing.
flyingfish said:
If the bear charged an unsuspecting old lady, I also would shoot the bear. But if the old lady went to do harm to the bear and the bear defended itself, I would say the old lady got what she deserved.
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Brutal!
Say some guy went to the zoo at night to kill a lion and the lion was getting the best of him, would you really kill the lion to protect the criminal who tried to kill it?
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No I wouldn’t.
flyingfish said:
What if you saw a man trying to set a fire to your house, and the only way you could stop him was to shoot him dead. Would you?
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Nope! I’d stop him the best I could without any intent to kill .
 
flyingfish said:
Can you please link scientific evidence that people remember they had a twin in utero and have “survivor guilt” because it died? It seems very weird to me, I’ve never met anyone who consciously remembers being in the womb.

If people actually remember existing in the womb, I’ll change my views about when the fetus becomes a person 🙂
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This was in one of the links I posted in reply to you in message 15 above on page 1. Here is the post again:

Incidentally, and I maintain this is not key to my position, but it is not true that there is no evidence the preborn has a mind. See here:

birthpsychology.com/lifebefore/earlymem.html

and here:

johnjames.com.au/psychoth…ng-twins.shtml

The second like deals specifically with vts (vanishing twin syndrome).
 
flyingfish said:
I’m not saying she has to provide to convince me,
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Not germane to the discussion at hand, but to limit confusion on a number of fronts ‘Adrian’ is a male spelling (as distinct from say Adrienne or Adriana). And while some folks are unaware of this even in naming their own children, mine assuredly were not 🙂

To sum up: I am a ‘he’.

A most Blessed Paschal Season to you all!
 
Des said:
I find it very unlikely that a bear, a dog or a cat has absolutely no self awareness whatsoever. You ever see a dog react after it’s master yells at him. I see shame in it’s eyes. I knew a dog who killed my brother’s kitten by accident and ran to the closet shaking because it knew what it had done. This is not the reaction a machine or a mosquito would make.

There was a mirror test done about ‘self awareness’ where animals or babies were put in front of the mirror marking them with two odourless dye spots. Pigs and elephants and gorillas and orcas passed this test among a few others. An 18 month old baby passed it but not a newborn. I can see the world now removing all rights to babies till they are a year and a half because their ‘self awareness’ is not present according to this test. Of course as I stated earlier, there are degrees of it and it appears that this mirror test is higher on the scale.
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That’s interesting. I’ve never had pets due to allergies, so I have no experience with dogs. 😦

It would make sense to me if a baby wasn’t considered a person until it became self aware. If it’s not self aware, in the most important way it doesn’t differ from any mindless system.

It’s also consistent with my personal experience. I don’t remember ever being a newborn, my first memories are from around the age of 2. I would say I didn’t exist until that time.

But even if babies aren’t considered persons, it doesn’t mean that it would suddenly become okay to do whatever you wanted to a baby. It would be very important to its parents, and it would still be important in its own right as a growing human.
 
adriancombe said:
This was in one of the links I posted in reply to you in message 15 above on page 1. Here is the post again:

Incidentally, and I maintain this is not key to my position, but it is not true that there is no evidence the preborn has a mind. See here:

birthpsychology.com/lifebefore/earlymem.html

and here:

johnjames.com.au/psychoth…ng-twins.shtml

The second like deals specifically with vts (vanishing twin syndrome).
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I looked at both links. The one about the vanishing twin syndrome in particular is strange and talks about a technique where a person puts things in a sand box and makes lines in the sand? It doesn’t cite that these findings were published in a reputable scientific journal.

Here’s a news story about fetal memory: sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090715074924.htm
The scientists studied about 100 healthy pregnant Dutch women and their fetuses, measuring changes in how the fetus responds to repeated stimulation. After receiving a number of stimuli, the fetus no longer responds to the stimulus as observed by ultrasonography and the stimulus is then accepted as “safe.” This change in response is called “habituation.” In a second session, the fetus “remembers” the stimulus and the number of stimuli needed for the fetus to habituate is then much smaller.
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Based on their research, the scientists found the presence of fetal short-term memory of 10 minutes at 30 weeks. They determined this because a significantly lower number of stimuli was needed to reach habituation in a second session, which was performed 10 minutes after the first session.** They also found that 34-week-old fetuses can store information and retrieve it four weeks later. **Fetuses were tested at 30, 32, 34, and 36 weeks, and again at 38 weeks. The 34- and 36-week-old fetuses habituated much faster than the 38-week-old fetuses that had not been tested before. This implies that these fetuses have a memory of at least 4 weeks—the interval between the test at 34 weeks and that at 38 weeks.
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This kind of thing doesn’t seem to imply self awareness to me.
 
flyingfish said:
But even if babies aren’t considered persons, it doesn’t mean that it would suddenly become okay to do whatever you wanted to a baby. It would be very important to its parents, and it would still be important in its own right as a growing human.
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I’ve heard stories of mothers who chucked their newborn babies in the garbage because they didn’t want to deal with the responsibility. Perhaps they shouldn’t have gotten charged for murder then? Or any women for that matter who kills her 1 year old infant. Is this really what it’s coming to now. :rolleyes:

And they don’t find their unborn children important in it’s own right as a growing human so why should they a newborn without a mind that presently doesn’t support self awareness.
 
flyingfish said:
I looked at both links. The one about the vanishing twin syndrome in particular is strange and talks about a technique where a person puts things in a sand box and makes lines in the sand? It doesn’t cite that these findings were published in a reputable scientific journal.

Here’s a news story about fetal memory: sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090715074924.htm

This kind of thing doesn’t seem to imply self awareness to me.
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The article you cited, while interesting, neither proves nor rules out anything. The psychological effects of vts are getting more and more scholarly attention. Perhaps you’d like to sink your teeth into this monster:

beba.org/programs/research/PhD_Nancy.pdf
 
Des said:
I’ve heard stories of mothers who chucked their newborn babies in the garbage because they didn’t want to deal with the responsibility. Perhaps they shouldn’t have gotten charged for murder then? Or any women for that matter who kills her 1 year old infant. Is this really what it’s coming to now. :rolleyes:

And they don’t find their unborn children important in it’s own right as a growing human so why should they a newborn without a mind that presently doesn’t support self awareness.
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I don’t think they should have been charged with murder, it should have been some other crime with a lower penalty than killing a self aware human.

If a stranger kills someone else’s newborn, it’s a serious crime against its parents. If the parents agree to kill their own newborn though, then it’s different. Still, it should be a crime since the newborn is not without intrinsic value, and especially so if society allows for adoption.

It’s questionable if there is no adoption and the parents don’t want the newborn. I don’t think they should be forced to raise it. But I guess that could apply to anyone, and in the poorer nations without good social programs unwanted dependent individuals are left to die and you can’t really fault anyone for choosing not to give their resources to sustain them.
 
adriancombe said:
The article you cited, while interesting, neither proves nor rules out anything.
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I thought it was a good example of the kind of thing that’s observed when people talk about fetal memories.

Specifically that it’s not adults remembering being fetuses and swimming around inside the womb. If that kind of thing was the case, I would certainly change my opinion about when elective abortion should be permitted.

Though frankly, I already think that elective abortions should be done in the first trimester, and only abortions necessary for medical reasons be done in the later stages of pregnancy.
 
flyingfish said:
I thought it was a good example of the kind of thing that’s observed when people talk about fetal memories.

Specifically that it’s not adults remembering being fetuses and swimming around inside the womb. If that kind of thing was the case, I would certainly change my opinion about when elective abortion should be permitted.

Though frankly, I already think that elective abortions should be done in the first trimester, and only abortions necessary for medical reasons be done in the later stages of pregnancy.
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Um, it doesn’t prove that. It just shows what they were able to see from it’s reactions. It doesn’t have any bearing on what was going on in their minds.

Yes the vts psychological effects do prove fetal memory beyond reasonable doubt. Enjoy that 250 page dissertation 🙂

Also sandbox therapy is extremely well established and has been around over 100 years. See here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_tray_therapy

(I know the article says it lacks citations but that is only true for the English version - if you click on Deutsch in the left margin you’ll see what I mean).
 
adriancombe said:
Um, it doesn’t prove that. It just shows what they were able to see from it’s reactions. It doesn’t have any bearing on what was going on in their minds.
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At the same time there is evidence that newborns don’t pass the mirror test, but 18 months old do. How does it make sense for fetuses in the womb to be aware of their existence, lose that when they’re newborns, and regain it at 18 months?
 
flyingfish said:
At the same time there is evidence that newborns don’t pass the mirror test, but 18 months old do. How does it make sense for fetuses in the womb to be aware of their existence, lose that when they’re newborns, and regain it at 18 months?
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Maybe they skipped that in embryology class or maybe I’m getting part timers. In either case, please bring me up to speed. What mirror test?
 
flyingfish said:
I don’t think they should have been charged with murder, it should have been some other crime with a lower penalty than killing a self aware human.

If a stranger kills someone else’s newborn, it’s a serious crime against its parents. If the parents agree to kill their own newborn though, then it’s different. Still, it should be a crime since the newborn is not without intrinsic value, and especially so if society allows for adoption.

It’s questionable if there is no adoption and the parents don’t want the newborn. I don’t think they should be forced to raise it. But I guess that could apply to anyone, and in the poorer nations without good social programs unwanted dependent individuals are left to die and you can’t really fault anyone for choosing not to give their resources to sustain them.
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Reading your posts are starting to make me ill now, and especially with this being Easter Sunday.
 
adriancombe said:
Maybe they skipped that in embryology class or maybe I’m getting part timers. In either case, please bring me up to speed. What mirror test?
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It’s a test for self awareness, when an organism can recognize itself in the mirror.
 
Des said:
I’ve heard stories of mothers who chucked their newborn babies in the garbage because they didn’t want to deal with the responsibility. Perhaps they shouldn’t have gotten charged for murder then? Or any women for that matter who kills her 1 year old infant. Is this really what it’s coming to now. :rolleyes:

And they don’t find their unborn children important in it’s own right as a growing human so why should they a newborn without a mind that presently doesn’t support self awareness.
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In my jurisdiction mothers who kill their newborn babies generally are charged with infanticide rather than murder.
 
flyingfish said:
I don’t know if a newborn baby has a mind. If it doesn’t, then I wouldn’t call it a person. I said, it doesn’t matter if the mind is sophisticated. There has to be someone in there though, it can’t be a mindless physical system for me to call it a person.

I don’t know in how many other ways I can say it. The mind has to be there, it doesn’t matter how sophisticated or fully developed it is.
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It’s hard to argue with someone with no faith. To believe you are the center of the universe and there is no God would mean you can explain everything around you - NOT ! Jesus Christ cured lepers, raised the dead, and SACRIFICED himself to show us how to live and redeem us. A woman sacrifices ( God’s Will ) her beautiful body when she carries and gives birth to a child.Stretch marks etc… If one doesn’t understand that we need to live for one another and not ourselves , then that person no matter how smart he or she claims they are, has lost their life already and that’s why they are not afaid to kill any form of life.

God Bless,

I will pray for you
 
flyingfish said:
What if you saw a man trying to set a fire to your house, and the only way you could stop him was to shoot him dead. Would you?
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No. My house is a surface thing. The sanctity of the man trying to set fire to my house is much more important than a place to live.

The house can be replaced. The life of the man (his life on earth) cannot be replaced.

*Holy Mother, please keep
all unborn children safe today.

St. Francis, please pray for all unwanted and hurt animals.*
 
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