Irrefutable Proof against being born gay?

[larkin31]

Yes - I think it is evil to pull people away from the church and into sin. I didn’t mention any of those other things.

I don’t believe that intolerance, beatings, harassment, or bigotry belong in the church at all.

Peace,
John Marie Philomena

My list is the core of what most of us work against for gays. I am a teacher, and this is ENTIRELY what we work against in our school. Gay marriage, for example, is rarely discussed, even though my state just had a referendum. But this is not the primary enemy of of gay persons; but rather misunderstanding, distrust, bigotry, and at the worst–abuse and violence. And the church doctrine of homosexual sin is in a logical embrace with the driving force of animosity and harassment.

 

[Jermosh]

Yes - I think it is evil to pull people away from the church and into sin. I didn’t mention any of those other things.

I don’t believe that intolerance, beatings, harassment, or bigotry belong in the church at all.

Peace,
John Marie Philomena

You dont, but others due, that is why Gay Rights groups are doing what ever they can do to desensitize the World.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

QUOTE=JohnMPhilomena;6344509]Yes, the Catholic Church is quite capable of accepting and tolerating homosexuality without sanctioning the homosexual act, but what about the poor SSA people who believe that they are that born that way? Many are turning away from the church and being lost.

Homosexuals turning away from the Church through lack of individual Christian’s compassion, and prejudice born on lack of understanding. I’m tempted to add fear to the list. Bully tactics, from what cause, to what result?

The light of truth is not selling Christ for 30 pieces of silver, regardless of who receives money as a result.

There is always money to be made from “carpet bagging” - finding an illness and providing a cure.

Studies have shown that family interactions (and many of them are not sexual) can be linked to homosexuality. An older brother who was cruel, a father who was passive and distant, lack of athletic skills can be all be factors. There is no single cause. I can tell you that this happens in very “normal” families without any incest or abuse.

Studies have shown that homosexuals also emerge from (so called) healthy, happy family environments.
What has “lack of althetic skills” got to do with homosexuality - especially when we are now witnessing top athletes claiming homosexual identity?

There is homosexuality - reasons unknown.

But the homosexual rights groups (inspired by satan) have done a great job saying that they were born this way and therefore should live this way.

That’s an assumption - “homosexual rights groups (inspired by satan)”

I personally know people who were able to explore the causes of their own SSA and once they addressed these, the SSA largely disappeared and they are able to live normal heterosexual lives. I’m not saying it’s easy, but let the truth give hope to these lost souls.

Throughout history left handed people have been treated similarly

Define: “normal” - homosexuality, one of life’s mysteries has not been proven to be abnormal.

A good web site I found:
www.ssahope.com

John Marie Philomena

“Good website” - that is, in agreement with your principles.
SSA - Same Sex Attraction Disorder - sounds a little bias.

 

[CarlaOLS]

Hey,
I’d like to chime in on a point or two. Some have mentioned the idea of the number of older male siblings being a possible factor in a person’s homosexual attractions. First it’s really important to understand there is no ONE factor that results in an individual’s homosexuality. Rather a number of factors combine over time, including the very individual factor of one’s unique personality, which for gay men is often found to be of a more sensitive nature.

Often older male siblings treat a younger brother differently, picking on him etc. even thinking they are toughening him up. Combine that dynamic with an absent, distant or abusive father, pile on a shy, sensitive nature, with a dose of self-image problems from any number of areas, (perhaps not feeling as if he measures up to his brothers, not feeling valued by the males in his life,) add to this a mother who may become overly protective as she tries to shiled her youngest son, and you may have a very good recipe homosexual feelings later on.
Such boy would naturally yearn for male approval and attention, even though pre-puberty may have taught him to shun male companionship, unconsciuously protecting himself from expected rejection. At the same time his ability to relate to males would have been arrested, and he would tend to find companionship and comaraderie with females learning to relate to them and be more comfortable with them. As his sex hormones awaken in puberty, his mind sees other males as the unknown - the “opposite sex” - sometimes desiring them now on two levels, sexually and as an unfulfilled natural desire to bond with the same sex on a fraternal level.

There is really so much to understand here, but as a Catholic ready to die for the smallest truth of our faith, I’m confident that when the Church teaches that actual sexual activity between the same sexes is intrinsically disordered, she is absolutely right. What Catholics should be ready to share with all gay and lesbian identified is that the desire, the feelings of attraction ARE NOT IN AND OF THEMSELVES SINFUL.

I hope the above scenario of factors can at least give well-meaning and searching individuals food for thought about how one’s environment can effect one’s sexuality.
JMP is right ssahope.com has a wealth of information on that score.

Love for all in Jesus,
Carla

 

[avflf]

…There is really so much to understand here, but as a Catholic ready to die for the smallest truth of our faith, I’m confident that when the Church teaches that actual sexual activity between the same sexes is intrinsically disordered, she is absolutely right. What Catholics should be ready to share with all gay and lesbian identified is that the desire, the feelings of attraction ARE NOT IN AND OF THEMSELVES SINFUL

Just in case you forgot
(Mat 5:28) But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

 

[peary]

1 Corinthians 6:8-10

“Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters. nor adulterers, nor boy prostitutes, nor sodomite,nor thieves, nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.”

Saint Paul based all of this on the Old Law but also understood that Christians are bound by the New Covenant with God, and that, although the Old Law was fulfilled in Christ, it was not abandoned, and that followers of Christ still had to keep chastity in their relationships. So, fornicators (those who engaged in casual sex just for the sake of sex), idolators (those who rejected the true God for an idol god), adulterers (those who had sexual relationships outside of marriage), boy prostitutes (meaning those who sold themselves to both men and women for sex; this could mean pedophilia or even teenagers), sodomites (those who engage in sex with the same gender), thieves, those that covet, those who are drunks, slanderers, and robbers - all of these cannot and will not inherit the kingdom of God…UNLESS they are washed clean in God’s Grace and repent.

Paul covers the whole ante here, and I fail to see where he could be wrong. But we do know now about alcoholism as an addiction, sex addiction, etc. which doesn’t change matters, but attending support groups and therapy could very well change the dynamics as to whether or not one is made worthy to inherit the kingdom. It’s all about transfiguration of the heart and allowing the grace of God to enter in and heal deep psychological wounds.

At least, that is how I see it. The Church is against sexual behavior that is not within the context of marriage and open to the creation of life.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

Hey,

I’d like to chime in on a point or two. Some have mentioned the idea of the number of older male siblings being a possible factor in a person’s homosexual attractions. First it’s really important to understand there is no ONE factor that results in an individual’s homosexuality.

 

[JohnMPhilomena]

Just in case you forgot
(Mat 5:28) But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

I’m not sure why you are posting this, but let’s be clear. An attraction is not sinful, lusting is. I can find women (other than my wife) attractive, but if I don’t entertain sexual thoughts about them, then I have not sinned.

Likewise, someone who has SSA (Same Sex Attraction) has not necessarily sinned.

Regards,
John Marie Philomena

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

1 Corinthians 6:8-10

“Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters. nor adulterers, nor boy prostitutes, nor sodomite,nor thieves, nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.”

Saint Paul based all of this on the Old Law but also understood that Christians are bound by the New Covenant with God, and that, although the Old Law was fulfilled in Christ, it was not abandoned, and that followers of Christ still had to keep chastity in their relationships. So, fornicators (those who engaged in casual sex just for the sake of sex), idolators (those who rejected the true God for an idol god), adulterers (those who had sexual relationships outside of marriage), boy prostitutes (meaning those who sold themselves to both men and women for sex; this could mean pedophilia or even teenagers), sodomites (those who engage in sex with the same gender), thieves, those that covet, those who are drunks, slanderers, and robbers - all of these cannot and will not inherit the kingdom of God…UNLESS they are washed clean in God’s Grace and repent.

Paul covers the whole ante here, and I fail to see where he could be wrong. But we do know now about alcoholism as an addiction, sex addiction, etc. which doesn’t change matters, but attending support groups and therapy could very well change the dynamics as to whether or not one is made worthy to inherit the kingdom. It’s all about transfiguration of the heart and allowing the grace of God to enter in and heal deep psychological wounds.

At least, that is how I see it. The Church is against sexual behavior that is not within the context of marriage and open to the creation of life.

Another interpretation of St Paul’s epistle is “the works of man contra the work of God”.

 

[onmyknees]

Hey,
I’d like to chime in on a point or two. Some have mentioned the idea of the number of older male siblings being a possible factor in a person’s homosexual attractions. First it’s really important to understand there is no ONE factor that results in an individual’s homosexuality. Rather a number of factors combine over time, including the very individual factor of one’s unique personality, which for gay men is often found to be of a more sensitive nature.

Often older male siblings treat a younger brother differently, picking on him etc. even thinking they are toughening him up. Combine that dynamic with an absent, distant or abusive father, pile on a shy, sensitive nature, with a dose of self-image problems from any number of areas, (perhaps not feeling as if he measures up to his brothers, not feeling valued by the males in his life,) add to this a mother who may become overly protective as she tries to shiled her youngest son, and you may have a very good recipe homosexual feelings later on.
Such boy would naturally yearn for male approval and attention, even though pre-puberty may have taught him to shun male companionship, unconsciuously protecting himself from expected rejection. At the same time his ability to relate to males would have been arrested, and he would tend to find companionship and comaraderie with females learning to relate to them and be more comfortable with them. As his sex hormones awaken in puberty, his mind sees other males as the unknown - the “opposite sex” - sometimes desiring them now on two levels, sexually and as an unfulfilled natural desire to bond with the same sex on a fraternal level.

There is really so much to understand here, but as a Catholic ready to die for the smallest truth of our faith, I’m confident that when the Church teaches that actual sexual activity between the same sexes is intrinsically disordered, she is absolutely right. What Catholics should be ready to share with all gay and lesbian identified is that the desire, the feelings of attraction ARE NOT IN AND OF THEMSELVES SINFUL.

I hope the above scenario of factors can at least give well-meaning and searching individuals food for thought about how one’s environment can effect one’s sexuality.
JMP is right ssahope.com has a wealth of information on that score.

Love for all in Jesus,
Carla

Great post Carla,

This thread has been very hard for me to read. You have just described someone who is very dear to me. My son who is ssa. He is the most kind, loving and responsible young man I know. I pray for him everyday. May I ask all of you here on Catholic answers to pray for him too? It would mean so much to me.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

Great post Carla,

This thread has been very hard for me to read. You have just described someone who is very dear to me. My son who is ssa. He is the most kind, loving and responsible young man I know. I pray for him everyday. May I ask all of you here on Catholic answers to pray for him too? It would mean so much to me.

SSAD rates weak masculine identity, mistrust of women and narcisism as defining factors in SSA

No statistics given, no backing evidence. Nothing. These influences might just as easily describe a heterosexual.

“Prejudice refers to a positive or a negative attitude or belief directed toward certain people based on their membership in a particular group. The root word of prejudice is ‘pre-judge’. It is a set of attitudes which causes, supports, or justifies discrimination. Prejudice refers to a tendency to over categorize. Prejudiced people respond to others in a more or less fixed way…
The essence of prejudicial thinking, however, is that the stereotype is not checked against reality. It is not modified by experiences that counter the rigid image.”

(Farley, Majority-minority relations, 4th edition, Upper Saddle River, 2000. Prentice Hall, N.J.)

Studies estimate nearly 30% of gay youth attempt suicide (Nicholas & Howard, 1998)

SSAD holds a loaded gun against the head of our youth and invites us to pull the trigger. I am not willing to co-operate.

 

[larkin31]

SSAD rates weak masculine identity, mistrust of women and narcisism as defining factors in SSA

No statistics given, no backing evidence. Nothing. These influences might just as easily describe a heterosexual.

“Prejudice refers to a positive or a negative attitude or belief directed toward certain people based on their membership in a particular group. The root word of prejudice is ‘pre-judge’. It is a set of attitudes which causes, supports, or justifies discrimination. Prejudice refers to a tendency to over categorize. Prejudiced people respond to others in a more or less fixed way…
The essence of prejudicial thinking, however, is that the stereotype is not checked against reality. It is not modified by experiences that counter the rigid image.”

(Farley, Majority-minority relations, 4th edition, Upper Saddle River, 2000. Prentice Hall, N.J.)

Studies estimate nearly 30% of gay youth attempt suicide (Nicholas & Howard, 1998)

SSAD holds a loaded gun against the head of our youth and invites us to pull the trigger. I am not willing to co-operate.

Nor I.

 

[onmyknees]

SSAD rates weak masculine identity, mistrust of women and narcisism as defining factors in SSA

No statistics given, no backing evidence. Nothing. These influences might just as easily describe a heterosexual.

“Prejudice refers to a positive or a negative attitude or belief directed toward certain people based on their membership in a particular group. The root word of prejudice is ‘pre-judge’. It is a set of attitudes which causes, supports, or justifies discrimination. Prejudice refers to a tendency to over categorize. Prejudiced people respond to others in a more or less fixed way…
The essence of prejudicial thinking, however, is that the stereotype is not checked against reality. It is not modified by experiences that counter the rigid image.”

(Farley, Majority-minority relations, 4th edition, Upper Saddle River, 2000. Prentice Hall, N.J.)

Studies estimate nearly 30% of gay youth attempt suicide (Nicholas & Howard, 1998)

SSAD holds a loaded gun against the head of our youth and invites us to pull the trigger. I am not willing to co-operate.

My son knows that we love him unconditionally. We are not prejudice! My priest said that we were doing the right thing by loving him. We do many things together. How could you sugest that we are prejudice? Because we do not condone homosexual acts does not mean we are prejudice. Jesus hated sin but loved the sinners.

 

[larkin31]

My son knows that we love him unconditionally. We are not prejudice! My priest said that we were doing the right thing by loving him. We do many things together. How could you sugest that we are prejudice? Because we do not condone homosexual acts does not mean we are prejudice. Jesus hated sin but loved the sinners.

I did not read his post as saying that YOU are prejudiced.

 

[Lethe]

I think even if it’s environment, that doesn’t mean the person can just change… Like if someone has a certain moral viewpoint because of environment and past experiences, they cannot just suddenly change it, and some never will. And being gay would be even more hard to change, as it surely involves some of the subconscious as well as the conscious mind.

 

[JohnMPhilomena]

I think even if it’s environment, that doesn’t mean the person can just change… Like if someone has a certain moral viewpoint because of environment and past experiences, they cannot just suddenly change it, and some never will. And being gay would be even more hard to change, as it surely involves some of the subconscious as well as the conscious mind.

Yes - it is not something that is easy to change. But wouldn’t it be great if people who want to reduce their same sex attraction could have hope that it is possible.

The Exodus Internaltional conferences are a great place to hear the success stories of those who have overcome this struggle. I think Courage also holds these type of conferences.

From what I’ve heard (from a male SSA perspective), it is important to develop non-sexual male to male friendships. Because it is generally a lack of those relationships that initially causes the SSA.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

My son knows that we love him unconditionally. We are not prejudice! My priest said that we were doing the right thing by loving him. We do many things together. How could you sugest that we are prejudice? Because we do not condone homosexual acts does not mean we are prejudice. Jesus hated sin but loved the sinners.

“How could you suggest that we are prejudiced?” What I have posted is an invitation to self-evaluation. Onmyknees, counselling sessions are not within the limited boundaries of this Forum.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

Yes - it is not something that is easy to change. But wouldn’t it be great if people who want to reduce their same sex attraction could have hope that it is possible.

The Exodus Internaltional conferences are a great place to hear the success stories of those who have overcome this struggle. I think Courage also holds these type of conferences.

From what I’ve heard (from a male SSA perspective), it is important to develop non-sexual male to male friendships. Because it is generally a lack of those relationships that initially causes the SSA.

According to the theory of neuroplasticity, thinking, learning, and acting change both the brain’s physical structure and functional organization from top to bottom.

“We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit” (Aristotle)

Once the pathways are formed, it becomes more difficult to change direction.

The causal factors of homosexuality have yet to be discerned. There may be various plausable reasons influencing sexual orientation. One may be cognitive response and if homosexuality in an individual is not led by cognitive determinant results of psychological therapy of a behavioural type may be extremely limited.

*The American Psychological Association: * "Sexual orientation is an enduring emotional, romantic, sexual or affectional attraction that a person feels toward another person. Sexual orientation falls along a continuum. In other words, someone does not have to be exclusively homosexual or heterosexual, but can feel varying degrees of attraction for both genders. Sexual orientation develops across a person’s lifetime, different people realize at different points in their lives that they are heterosexual, gay, lesbian or bisexual.’

 

[CarlaOLS]

John has said it well in emphasizing the difference between lust and attraction. In a heterosexual with natural attraction for the opposite sex, we assign no sin or guilt to their leanings. Likewise we should assign no sin or guilt to the feelings of attraction that a gay or lesbian identified experiences. Their feelings are a result of complicated circumstances, personalities, and relational experiences, all intertwined and for the greater part, unconscious and not caused by personal choice. For this reason the attractions disguise themselves, feeling natural and inborn.

It’s interesting to note with what vehemence and vigor many gay identified cling to the theory that they were born homosexual. It is, I believe, hugely guilt driven, which is unfortunate because their need to remove all sense of guilt from their personal attractions is unnecessary, and it clouds the truth of their condition. The claim that homosexuality is inborn, that some individuals are created this way, is an easy way out for two reasons – it completely and unquestionably relieves the individual of personal guilt, and it necessarily relieves the person of any need to change. (Change IS NOT a move from homosexual to heterosexual desires – change involves a move toward understanding, wholeness, and healing, a move toward holiness.)

It’s all so sad because there should be NO GUILT when one discovers he or she is attracted to the same sex. Instead there should be education, self-discovery, support of family, friends and church, and unconditional love as the SSA person works to understand his or her unique background, heal relationships and past wounds, build fraternal bonds filling same sex needs legitimately and pray to live a chaste life according to God’s law.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

It’s interesting to note with what vehemence and vigor many gay identified cling to the theory that they were born homosexual. It is, I believe, hugely guilt driven, which is unfortunate because their need to remove all sense of guilt from their personal attractions is unnecessary, and it clouds the truth of their condition. The claim that homosexuality is inborn, that some individuals are created this way, is an easy way out for two reasons – it completely and unquestionably relieves the individual of personal guilt, and it necessarily relieves the person of any need to change. (Change IS NOT a move from homosexual to heterosexual desires – change involves a move toward understanding, wholeness, and healing, a move toward holiness.)

It’s all so sad because there should be NO GUILT when one discovers he or she is attracted to the same sex. Instead there should be education, self-discovery, support of family, friends and church, and unconditional love as the SSA person works to understand his or her unique background, heal relationships and past wounds, build fraternal bonds filling same sex needs legitimately and pray to live a chaste life according to God’s law.

The American Psychiatric Association: “There are no replicated scientific studies supporting any specific biological etiology (cause or origin) of homosexuality…No specific psychosocial or family dynamic cause for homosexuality has been identified, including histories of childhood sexual abuse.”
The APA takes a firm stance regarding conversion therapies that try to change homosexuality, stating that there is no evidence to support the effectiveness of these therapies.

Statement on homosexuality, American Psychological Association: Research suggests that homosexual orientation is in place very early in the life cycle, possibly even before birth. It is found in about 10% of the population, a figure which is surprisingly constant across cultures, irrespective of the different moral values and standards of a particular culture."
Homosexuality is no longer considered a mental disorder by the American Psychological Association.