Irrefutable Proof against being born gay?

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i have a problem with the idea that being gay is anything but a choice.
Awesome quote here.

So, honest question. Can you go back and let us know when you made your “choice” to be straight? Really.

I can remember way back in grade school when I started to, lets say, “notice” women. Now, I had no idea why I was interested. I didn’t really know what it was that I was even interested in. I do distinctly remember shapes. Something about the shapes and curves were very pleasing, to say the least. I didn’t have the foggiest idea why my little brain liked them so much, but it sure did. Now, what I absolutely DO know, is that I didn’t decide one morning “women with curves will now please me”. I didn’t even know what I was thinking.

If warpspeed or others can actually walk us through their decision to like women (or vice-versa), I am all ears.

(BTW, I have NO IDEA what actually causes homosexuality. I do know that your chances of homosexuality are relatively equal between almost any group imaginable. ie Broken homes, conservative, liberal, big families, sisters/brothers, single parents all seem to have similar levels of gay/straight kids. As to why? I have no idea)
 
true. but something else comes to mind when reflecting on our conversation. namely the question

what identifies a gay man as gay, if not homosexual activity?

when we say ‘gay’ what qualities except homosexual activity are we using to identify him as gay?

i think most qualities other than that we could apply to anyone.
A gay man is someone who feels a deep-seated sexual attraction towards men, and cannot bring himself to feel sexually attracted to females. This feeling is unquestionably *not *a sin. Acting on that feeling, of course, is a sin. But we need to be very careful when classifying people as sinful because they feel the penchant to a certain kind of sin. It is probably true that the vast majority of gay people live a life of sexual sin, but some gay Catholics live a celibate life and are free from sexual sin. It is insulting and harmful to carry on discussions as to whether such people (celibate gay Catholics) chose to feel attracted towards other men. Now, as I said before, perhaps the term “gay” is too secularized and implicitly means an acceptable lifestyle. If that is the case, then we should (as some Catholics have) refer to such people as having same-sex attractions. This, unfortunately, runs the risk of perpetuating the misunderstanding that such people chose to be this way. A good number of celibate “gay” Catholics would do anything to feel attracted to women.

I suspect the OP, along with many Catholics and non-Catholics alike, see homosexuals as inherently sinful, even when celibate. This is a plainly wrong view, and we must fervently oppose it.
 
Neither children, nor animals can give proper consent. Not only are children and animals not physically ready for sex, they are not psychologically ready for it either - the child, for it’s lack of life-experience, the animal for it’s lack of human-experience. You understand the potential for harm and psychological damage in the child; you can at least imagine the potential for true and fulfiling love in a homosexual relationship. Is there any reason other than “MY GOD SAID SO” that homosexuality is wrong? If not, you’re a bigot. Easy.
Did you mean sodomy? You said homosexuality, it’s been repeatedly established in this thread that SSA is not a sin.

Clearly there are many sub-schools of natural law that operate independently of religious interpretation. One does not need faith in a divine being to come to the conclusion that sodomy may not be in line with natural law.
 
Awesome quote here.

So, honest question. Can you go back and let us know when you made your “choice” to be straight? Really.

I can remember way back in grade school when I started to, lets say, “notice” women. Now, I had no idea why I was interested. I didn’t really know what it was that I was even interested in. I do distinctly remember shapes. Something about the shapes and curves were very pleasing, to say the least. I didn’t have the foggiest idea why my little brain liked them so much, but it sure did. Now, what I absolutely DO know, is that I didn’t decide one morning “women with curves will now please me”. I didn’t even know what I was thinking.

If warpspeed or others can actually walk us through their decision to like women (or vice-versa), I am all ears.

(BTW, I have NO IDEA what actually causes homosexuality. I do know that your chances of homosexuality are relatively equal between almost any group imaginable. ie Broken homes, conservative, liberal, big families, sisters/brothers, single parents all seem to have similar levels of gay/straight kids. As to why? I have no idea)
not a problem.

when i still treated women like objects, i made the decision to be ‘straight’ every time i laid down with one.

youre under the mistaken impression that there is something called “gay”. or “straight” there is not. there are just people making choices.

there is no “gay” aside from the homosexual act. you cant be born gay, anymore than a woman is born attracted to tall men, or blonde men.
 
not a problem.

when i still treated women like objects, i made the decision to be ‘straight’ every time i laid down with one.

youre under the mistaken impression that there is something called “gay”. or “straight” there is not. there are just people making choices.

there is no “gay” aside from the homosexual act. you cant be born gay, anymore than a woman is born attracted to tall men, or blonde men.
Hmmm. I have no idea what that means. So, you are saying you don’t have any labels for your sexual feelings, and you made a decision every time you had sex with a woman that at that particular time, you would be attracted to a woman?

I am trying very hard to avoid all the labels. You keep mentioning choices. So, at some point, you made this choice. All you will say is you make a choice each time you slept with a woman? Why a woman?

Sorry, but your answer thus far is a bit of a cop-out.
 
not a problem.

when i still treated women like objects, i made the decision to be ‘straight’ every time i laid down with one.

youre under the mistaken impression that there is something called “gay”. or “straight” there is not. there are just people making choices.

there is no “gay” aside from the homosexual act. you cant be born gay, anymore than a woman is born attracted to tall men, or blonde men.
And on further review, you wording is odd. Your first sentence makes it sound like you only had sex when you were treating women like objects. Does this imply you no longer have sex, or at some point decided against it? Confused… :confused:
 
A gay man is someone who feels a deep-seated sexual attraction towards men, and cannot bring himself to feel sexually attracted to females.
i dont believe this. people can say it all the time, but a bunch of gay people i know have kids, and they say the same thing. obviously they can bring themselves heterosexual intercourse.
This feeling is unquestionably *not *a sin.
if its true, yes. youre right. i just dotn think its true.
Acting on that feeling, of course, is a sin. But we need to be very careful when classifying people as sinful because they feel the penchant to a certain kind of sin. It is probably true that the vast majority of gay people live a life of sexual sin, but some gay Catholics live a celibate life and are free from sexual sin.
celibacy does not free one from sexual sin. though everyone is sinful, we cant pick them out for the particularity of theeir sins, ive done much worse.
It is insulting and harmful to carry on discussions as to whether such people (celibate gay Catholics) chose to feel attracted towards other men.
i dont do political correctness. reason, logic, truth. my only standard est veritas.
I suspect the OP, along with many Catholics and non-Catholics alike, see homosexuals as inherently sinful, even when celibate. This is a plainly wrong view, and we must fervently oppose it.
i dont think there is such a thing as gay, just people who choose to commit disordered acts.

but if i am wrong, then its not a sin to have SSA, it is something that can be treated, and it should be for the health and happiness of the individual.

but in that we must be very careful not to in any way imply that homosexual activity itself, is in any way less of an offense. G-d is very clear on the issue. some people may take that as a kind of tacit approval, even if we dont mean it that way.
 
And on further review, you wording is odd. Your first sentence makes it sound like you only had sex when you were treating women like objects. Does this imply you no longer have sex, or at some point decided against it? Confused… :confused:
please, if you want you discuss our sex lives.

you go first.
 
Perhaps the Angelic Doctor could help us here… (c.f. ST I-II q.1 a.1)

He says that there are human acts and “acts of a man.” Human acts proceed from deliberate desire of an end (i.e. they include a choice) and acts of a man are acts that are done without deliberation. When you scratch your beard, you have no end in sight.

Someone noted above that they did not choose to be attracted to women, and that person was right to an extent. Your nature – the internal directedness – pointed you toward women. In some sense, the natural desire was an act of a man. Nonetheless, when you pursue a woman and attempt to have sexual relations with her, you are making what was an “act of a man” (imperfect will – desiring an end without knowing it under the aspect of end) into a human act. That is, you choose to have sex with a woman following deliberate desire.

So the “choice” of being gay, really is a red herring. We are a fallen humanity. Whether or not being gay is genetic or not is really not the issue. The issue, as others have alluded to, is the act.

Why anyone would “choose” to be gay, I don’t know. The livelihood of homosexuals is not good. They die younger, have suicide ideation at a much higher rate, commit suicide more often, more often are drug addicts or alcoholics, and tend to be in abusive relationships more often. All in all, it sounds pretty miserable, right?

Virtue theory can give us insight here as well if we tie it into the natural law. One of the precepts Aquinas offers for the natural law is the procreation and rearing of offspring. Homosexuality and contraception obviously contradict this precept. If a man is going to be happy, he is going to follow the internal principles of his form to their natural telos. The misery of homosexuals and the divorce rates amongst contracepting couples demonstrate that somewhere the natural telos of those relationships is going awry. So what are we to say about homosexuality?

It does not conduce to happiness, whether it is an internal disposition or not. As others have noted, the searching for a gay gene is nothing else than someone trying to justify their actions by tying it into their nature. The only problem is that homosexuality is contrary to the natural law as attested by the unhappiness of most homosexuals. I am inclined to think that it is a sexual deviation that arises from circumstances like sexual abuse or effeminate traits at a young age. This does not mean that I would suggest that there is not some form of internal directedness in pursuing the same sex. I just think the wiring got screwed up somewhere along the way. (Incidentally, if we are going to accept Darwins conclusions, there should be no homosexuality, as it is a deviation that would not survive natural selection.)

Also, warpspeedpetey, as much as I agree with you on other issues, I think you are mistaken to claim that homosexuality is defined merely by the act. You are actually undermining the existence of nature with that argument, which is something as Catholic I don’t think you’d want to do because ultimately it will land you in nominalism or the haphazard burgeoning metaphysics of the existentialists.
 
we need no other reason than that G-d said so. we arent responsible to anyone else other than G-d.

it seems your saying that people who act and believe in accord with their faith, are bigots.

thats a pretty bigotted against religion.
If peoples’ faith exclude others on any dimensions that otherwise aren’t harming people by their actions (again, in a non-religious way: I can already hear people piping up “BUT THEY’RE HARMING THEMSELVEZ!!!1!!!1!1!”). If I am a bigot, by virtue of my intolerance for intolerance, then I am a bigot for bigots. I’ll take it.
Give me a break. So we need to find non-religious reasons to justify everything our religion says?
No, by all means be prepared to receive the arrows for intolerance though.
Besides, Catholics maintain that the immorality of homosexual sex can be derived from the natural law. There is no natural reason for people of the same sex to interact sexually. Sure, it happens in nature, but so do all kinds of birth defects and such.
It happens in nature, therefore it’s natural. Pedophilia, in the strict sense that I’m discussing, is “natural” (happening in nature), it’s just highly condemned (for good reason) because of it’s potential for harm.
I think the onus should be on you–what arguments do you have that homosexuality is not a disorder? Because it doesn’t hurt anyone? Imagine an 18 year-old who looks like she’s 12 (such women exist). If such a woman had a sexual relationship with a pedophile, who was only attracted to her because she looks like a 12 year old, would this be natural, simply because no one is being hurt by it?
The only thing that separates homosexuality from any number of other disorders is that people with the same disorder can get together and fulfill one another in sexual and emotional ways. If, for example, there was only 1 homosexual in the entire world, you would surely concede it was a disorder, no?
This is an extraordinary attempt to bully me into a position. It really doesn’t get at the heart of whether homosexuality ought to be tolerated and accepted by people either. For mere sport alone, let me contend the following: a man who filters his pedophilic tendencies into adult relationships is almost certainly making a wiser choice than one who isn’t (it happens it nature; it doesn’t hurt anyone = my criteria for tolerance and acceptance). And I wouldn’t concede that homosexuality was a disorder in merely one person, unless it could be prooved that his orientation was the caused of maladjustment (which contemporary psychology reveals, is not the case). It doesn’t matter to me if someone has a hard-and-fast attraction to man-made objects. If they’re not hurting anyone, and are themselves adjusted, then I can accept them.

You said homosexuality offers potential fulfilment of emotional and physical needs (for all intents and purposes, they can offer love to one another). You think simply because they’re the minority orientation, I should think their behaviour a disorder? That’s not how we classify disorder in the psychological world. That attitude is the foundation for any staunch bigot.
Did you mean sodomy? You said homosexuality, it’s been repeatedly established in this thread that SSA is not a sin.

Clearly there are many sub-schools of natural law that operate independently of religious interpretation. One does not need faith in a divine being to come to the conclusion that sodomy may not be in line with natural law.
Mmhmm. I mean acting in ways consistent with that SSA. I’m not talking about whether something is the norm or not (which is what you’re trying to establish by saying “natural law”); Homosexuality is not normal, because it’s simply not the norm; it doesn’t follow that it isn’t natural though. It happens in the natural world. It has the same potential for good and for harm as any heterosexual relationship. There’s no reason not to accept that some people just have a different sexual preference and intend to act on it for the lack of its detriment to others. If you can’t accept that not everyone shares your worldview, you are, in fact, a bigot.
 
And on further review, you wording is odd. Your first sentence makes it sound like you only had sex when you were treating women like objects. Does this imply you no longer have sex, or at some point decided against it? Confused… :confused:
yes, i am* currently *celibate.

my uncle made a point when i was complaining about a girlfriend i had. he said “why do you think G-d would put a good woman into your life, considering how you live?”, that had never occurred to me. he was right. i lived a party lifestyle. my home was no place for a decent woman to be.

so i realized that i was offending G-d with the way i was treating women. i grew up and stopped sleeping around. the kind of women you meet at the club arent the kind that you want to have a family with.

i want a good woman, who can be my best friend, a wife, a mother to my children, and most importantly, someone who loves G-d more than she loves me. ive been lucky enough to raise 3 foster children as my own, so i know i will make a good father, i loved it and would like a whole bunch more.

i can tell you that it is not easy at all, its really one of the hardest things i have ever done, but if i want G-d to trust me with that kind of woman, i have to live in a way pleasing to Him.
 
so i realized that i was offending G-d with the way i was treating women. i grew up and stopped sleeping around. the kind of women you meet at the club arent the kind that you want to have a family with.
Faux offense Hey, I met my boyfriend at a club, and there isn’t anything wrong with that 😛

In all seriousness, I admire your honesty.
 
If peoples’ faith exclude others on any dimensions that otherwise aren’t harming people by their actions (again, in a non-religious way: I can already hear people piping up “BUT THEY’RE HARMING THEMSELVEZ!!!1!!!1!1!”). If I am a bigot, by virtue of my intolerance for intolerance, then I am a bigot for bigots. I’ll take it
the only dimension that matters to me is G-ds. i need no other reason.
 
the only dimension that matters to me is G-ds. i need no other reason.
Well then let us each to our seperate domains. Personally, when good reason goes against God, I tend to question whether God acctually said the things alleged of him, but I guess it’s easier to be intolerant.
 
Well then let us each to our seperate domains. Personally, when good reason goes against God, I tend to question whether God acctually said the things alleged of him, but I guess it’s easier to be intolerant.
the statement
when good reason goes against God
is both a logical contradiction, and an oxymoron.

nice one!

a mind so open, the brain falls out 😛
 
the statement

is both a logical contradiction, and an oxymoron.

nice one!

a mind so open, the brain falls out 😛
And other insults to bolster iron-age superstitions carried into the modern era…

It’s not a logical contradiction. We know that there is no evidence suggesting homosexual unions are wrong or harmful or bad in any other way except allegedly God says they are (so why didn’t he give us evidence of that?). When intuitively, we think “Hmm, homosexuals aren’t hurting anyone, and they really have a biological propensity towards their orientation anyway,” then it seems odd that God would take such an interest in chastening homosexual behaviour (unless of course, it was the ideology of men and not a magical, wrathful, invisible, sky-daddy). A lot of things in religion don’t appeal to our reason but we’re told to except them, so let’s not pretend…
 
It’s not a logical contradiction.
when good reason goes against God

yes, the etymology of the word ‘good’ is G-d. you are implying, inadvertantly, A = not A.
We know that there is no evidence suggesting homosexual unions are wrong or harmful or bad
how do you know this have you seen all the possible evidence?
in any other way except allegedly God says they are (so why didn’t he give us evidence of that?).
some people dont like broccoli, G-d doesnt like disorderd acts. what evidence other than that does He need? its G-ds call to make.
When intuitively, we think "Hmm, homosexuals aren’t hurting anyone,
ive worked with victims of homosexual rape before. youre intuition is wrong. ever seen the shawshank redemption? thats not much of an overstatement on the matter.
and they really have a biological propensity towards their orientation anyway,"
bald assertion. prove it. i like girls with freckles. do i have a biological propensity to that? of course not.
then it seems odd that God would take such an interest in chastening homosexual behaviour
why? is it odd that some people dont like broccoli?

if you made something but it refused to work the way you made it, how happy would you be?
(unless of course, it was the ideology of men and not a magical, wrathful, invisible, sky-daddy). A lot of things in religion don’t appeal to our reason but we’re told to except them, so let’s not pretend…
they all answer to reason, all you have to do is apply it. critical thinking.
 
Warpspeed, as an aside, you never answered when you made your choice to be straight…

“Before I slept with a woman” is not an answer.
 
when good reason goes against God

yes, the etymology of the word ‘good’ is G-d. you are implying, inadvertantly, A = not A.
I don’t know about the etymolgy. Do you think that I mean “God” when I say “Good”? Do you think the reference to God is the typical use of the word “Good”? You never cease with the nonsense. Don’t you know that when I say “good reason,” I mean “well-evidenced”? Use your head instead of nit-picking at every little thing in an attempt to save your case. It’s very unrefreshing.
how do you know this have you seen all the possible evidence?
I’ve seen much of it. I’ll be happy to point you in the direction of a few good books and some scholarly articles. But something tells me you can’t possibly believe that there exists evidence that homosexuality causes maladjustment or harm or psychological damage or anything of that nature (or even that it’s related to anything bad, per se).
some people dont like broccoli, G-d doesnt like disorderd acts. what evidence other than that does He need? its G-ds call to make.
I’d agree if God had given us good evidence - scientific evidence - as to why homosexuality was wrong. Nevertheless, he didn’t (not that I think there was a God who gave us anything, but you get the idea). When we read that God says homosexuality is wrong and there is no scientific evidence or intuition, aside from God, that would lead us to that conclusion, I find great difficulty in believing God even said. In fact, he didn’t. Men wrote the bible, filling it with the prejudices.
ive worked with victims of homosexual rape before. youre intuition is wrong. ever seen the shawshank redemption? thats not much of an overstatement on the matter.
Mmhmm. Do you know the difference between an anecdote and evidence? Because I really don’t think you do.
bald assertion. prove it. i like girls with freckles. do i have a biological propensity to that? of course not.
Couldn’t say about the freckles (no scientists have been interested in that topic). If you look at the concordance rates of homosexuality in monozygotic twin studies, we see concrete evidence of biological propensity. We see social factors as well, but to a much lesser degree. Type in “concordance rate” + “homosexuality” in a journal database. Unless you’re just incredulous about science, you’ll see what I’m talking about. But I suspect you know very little about science to assess it in the first place, so maybe find a review article that lays it all out.
why? is it odd that some people dont like broccoli?
No, but that’s because they usually don’t like the taste. What about the taste of homosexuality does God dislike? The evidence shows nothing wrong with them - the only thing we have is that God doesn’t approve.
if you made something but it refused to work the way you made it, how happy would you be?
You’d probably consider yourself quite incompetent, if not outright stupid, what with being perfect and all.
they all answer to reason, all you have to do is apply it. critical thinking.
Well, no they don’t. Some things have to be taken simply by a leap of faith. That used to be understood about religion before Christians had to start arguing on equal grounds with science - and poorly. But that’s not what we’re here to discuss.

You’re a bigot, and so is everyone else who doesn’t tolerate people who are different, on the grounds that an invisible daddy in another realm said so in a book churned out in superstitious, illiterate, iron-age, Palestine.

W a k e
t h e
f u c k
u p
a l r e a d y
(Obvious ban) - think about it though…
 
**As a medical practitioner, who has worked in this area for over 20 years - I can tell you with certainty that a genuine homosexual orientation is NOT the result of a choice - like what to have for breakfast, or whether to eat broccoli or peas.

A proportion of the human population is fundamentally oriented towards same - sex attraction, and for these individuals, it is not a choice. It is how they are naturally oriented as human beings.

Now some Christians argue, that such orientation is actually “disordered” or a “misorientation” as all are created as heterosexual by God. Some argue that this is the responsibility of the individual making the “choice” to be homosexual, or the result of “demonic” influence upon the individual.

Well, we could say the same about any sin.

But I (and my psychiatric profession) are absolutely sure that heterosexuals do not “choose” to be heterosexual - they are naturally oriented that way, or they have been created that way - or they are that way because of nature (genetic pre-determinants OR genetic predisposition) and because of nurture (the environment they grew up in).

Having said that, I treat many individuals who are homosexual who grew up in exclusively heterosexual environments - and also individuals who are heterosexual who grew up with homosexual parent(s).**
 
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