Irrefutable Proof against being born gay?

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Hmmm.

Quite a few years back, an old friend came over with her 4 yr old son. He was absolutely adorable with blond hair and big blue eyes and when he introduced himself to me, he was more feminine then I could ever hope to be. 30 yrs later he still is.

Now someone please explain THAT to me. 🤷
:rolleyes:
Just because someone is gentle in nature it does not mean they are gay. 5 yr olds are gentle, not necessarily gay, but gentle. I fail to see where unless he was playing dress up in women’s clothes, that he is gay.
 
KEVIN WILCOX;6363999:
This seems to make sense actually that a lot of priests are gay. If I was a faithful Catholic, who was gay, and wanted to try my hardest to keep with Catholic teachings (of being celibate), then why wouldn’t I become a priest?
Your treading on thin ice…be careful what you say about priests and the Catholic church. Fr. Serpa reads these comments you know!! And so do all the other moderators!:eek:
 
hellopeople;6364011:
Your treading on thin ice…be careful what you say about priests and the Catholic church. Fr. Serpa reads these comments you know!! And so do all the other moderators!:eek:
The comment you quote as from myself is not a comment of mine - one of “hellopeople” - posted as a response to a comment I had posted:eek:

I post this, go back to the message bank and see your comment as also accorded to “hellopeople” 🤷

CFA really do need financial assistance - if only to keep postings in order.
 
hellopeople;6364011:
Your treading on thin ice…be careful what you say about priests and the Catholic church. Fr. Serpa reads these comments you know!! And so do all the other moderators!:eek:
I didn’t say anything bad. I just said that it would make sense that many priests would be gay. As I said, if you are gay, and you want to be faithful to the church, you are supposed to be celibate…and what is the most honorable profession of a celibate?? A priest.
 
The comment you quote as from myself is not a comment of mine - one of “hellopeople” - posted as a response to a comment I had posted:eek:

I post this, go back to the message bank and see your comment as also accorded to “hellopeople” 🤷

CFA really do need financial assistance - if only to keep postings in order.
lol, yes that was weird.
 
:rolleyes:
I fail to see where unless he was playing dress up in women’s clothes, that he is gay.
“Playing dress up in women’s clothes” does not necessarily infer sexual orientation; neither does that combined with a gentle nature.
My grandfather taught my mother to knit, both are heterosexual.
What someone does does not necessarily indicate what someone is.
Quite recently we ourselves have experienced how attributing identity can be misleading:)
 
KEVIN WILCOX;6363999:
This seems to make sense actually that a lot of priests are gay. If I was a faithful Catholic, who was gay, and wanted to try my hardest to keep with Catholic teachings (of being celibate), then why wouldn’t I become a priest?
I agree with you hellopeople.

Kevin, The Catholic Church tells us to love all people but not sin. So yes there are ssa priests who might have chosen this vocation because it would help them(like hellopeople said) to try their hardest to follow the Catholic teaching.
 
These are neurotic teachings, born of sexual repression and extremism.
Hi larkin,

I have to disgree. You see besides being the teachings of the Church that was started by Christ, these sins do harm the sinner more that anyone else. I am speaking from many many years of participating in these sins. My conscience had become clouded and I had lost my sense of sin. I did not have much time for others because I was so caught up in myself, in my own selfish pleasure. After I reverted back to the Church and gave up this lifestyle I slowly began to grow in virtue. Now I have such joy and peace in my life.
 
hellopeople;6364011:
I agree with you hellopeople.

Kevin, The Catholic Church tells us to love all people but not sin. So yes there are ssa priests who might have chosen this vocation because it would help them(like hellopeople said) to try their hardest to follow the Catholic teaching.
Becoming a priest for this reason screams escapism, attachment, avoiding the issue. Hopefully before one becomes a priest major issues would have been confronted and dealt with, as before the sacrament of marriage.
To say “I will marry this person because they will make me whole” is not responsible practice. It’s often the onset of greater problems.
 
Hi larkin,

I have to disgree. You see besides being the teachings of the Church that was started by Christ, these sins do harm the sinner more that anyone else. I am speaking from many many years of participating in these sins. My conscience had become clouded and I had lost my sense of sin. I did not have much time for others because I was so caught up in myself, in my own selfish pleasure. After I reverted back to the Church and gave up this lifestyle I slowly began to grow in virtue. Now I have such joy and peace in my life.
Paramount in sin is our intention. Before every task undertaken we need ask ourselves “Why?” Even the most outwardly virtuous of practices may come from a heart of corruption and self-cherishing. We can fool ourselves, we cannot fool God.
 
Do you usually see homosexual horses, geese or mice, etc? No.

Can humans be born physically or psychologically homosexual? No. There is no disposition for homosexuality, since it is outside the norm.

If you want to speak about it terms of science, through evolution, what do homosexuals gain? Nothing. The purpose of sexuality in animals is to procreate. Theirs is a sexual perversion.

This argument is used as an attempt to excuse people who are homosexual as though it is natural. Explaining it as, “He/She can’t help how he/she acts he/she was born that way.”

It is not a natural attribute of the human body, as it is not a natural attribute of a horse.

It is a learned psychological mentality and a spiritual problem when acted upon.
in terms of nature. Human beings are the only species who do things that aren’t instinct. Every other animal, kills, eats, and does everything based on unchangeable nature. But human beings do MANY things that are completely unnatural and unique to them.

I have researched a few years back, and as I recall. Homosexuality, is genetic. But it depends on the environment if and when it surfaces.

In personality, I have noticed homosexuals to be much kinder then the average heterosexual.
 
Most of the posts I’ve skimmed seem to be off the topic.

I think SSA is genetic/epigenetic. It’s too widespread, around the world. It surpasses culture, and it is so random in occurrence. And, it affects both genders. A couple weeks ago, news was released that some stuttering is genetic. This stuff is discovered every day.

There is a popular website about SSA which attributes it “definitely” to about a dozen factors. Sorry, can’t buy that.

Basic, visceral same-sex orientation must be genetic/epigenetic. The social factors can nourish and express SSA, but I don’t think they explain it.

My position: Pray for a cure for homosexuality.
 
Most of the posts I’ve skimmed seem to be off the topic.

I think SSA is genetic/epigenetic. It’s too widespread, around the world. It surpasses culture, and it is so random in occurrence. And, it affects both genders. A couple weeks ago, news was released that some stuttering is genetic. This stuff is discovered every day.

There is a popular website about SSA which attributes it “definitely” to about a dozen factors. Sorry, can’t buy that.

Basic, visceral same-sex orientation must be genetic/epigenetic. The social factors can nourish and express SSA, but I don’t think they explain it.

My position: Pray for a cure for homosexuality.
If homosexuality is genetic, then it can’t be cured. For God made Humanity. therefore he made them with the capability to be homosexual.

My position: Homosexuality is but a minor thing in the greater schemes, God doesn’t care if the person is gay or not. They are equal and will be forgiven like anyone else, if they truly seek it.
 
(from the Ontario Centre for religious tolerance)

"There are many passages in English Bibles which clearly condemn same-sex activities. But when the original Hebrew or Greek is studied, the passages are either ambiguous or are unrelated to consentual homosexuality within a committed relationship…

The words ‘homosexual’ and ‘heterosexual’ do not appear in the Bible - at least they are absent from the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek texts. The authors of the Bible did not understand sexual orientation; thus consent was only developed in the 19th century. The writers had little or no comprehension of same-sex committed relationships. Their language had no words for these concepts. Rather, they assumed that everyone was heterosexual, but that some heterosexuals engaged in sex with persons of the same gender. Thus, when you see one of these terms in an English Bible, it is important to dig deeper and find what the original Hebrew or Greek text really means…

Each Bible translation reflects the world view, beliefs and mind set of its translators. Their personal biases distort their work. There is an additional complexity facing translators: today’s society is very different from that of Biblical times. It is sometimes difficult to find a current English word that closely matches a Hebrew or Greek term…"
 
I don’t think there is irrefutable proof ‘against’ homosexuality being inherited. But the connection between human sexuality and genetics is still not clearly understood and I think care should be taken when drawing moral conclusions from genetic science. I think sensible ethical thinking takes into account the evidence of natural and human sciences but we need to be very careful when drawing normative conclusions about human behaviour from the natural world, whether for or against homosexuality. Humans have evolved in a unique manner and while humans are animals, we also have a degree of conciousness, intelligence and choice that allows us to plan and choose our actions to a degree perhaps no other animal can.

I think in sexual morality there are dangerous extremes that must be avoided. I think the extremes might be called ‘hedonism’ and ‘puritanism.’ As with other areas of moral choice, too much emphasis can be placed on desire and instinct or freedom to the point people merely do something because ‘it feels right’ or ‘I must do it because my instincts or desires made me do it.’ I think our freedom is precious and it is a cop-out to do things just on impulse, as much sexual activity in our culture seems to be based on. The other extreme is a rigid puritanical ideal which regards sex as polluting and evil in all its forms and narrows the acceptable types of sexual behaviour to an unrealistic range, not recognising the diversity of human individuals. The attitude of the Christian church has at times leaned strongly towards the puritanical view, even towards sex in heterosexual lifelong marriage, while secular views seem to err too much on the hedonist side, against the puritanical view.

All people are animals and biological creatures of flesh and blood, and as such, we are also sexual. It would be inhuman to deny this. But we also have concious minds capable of moral decision making, conscience, and choice. As such we also have a responsibility to avoid doing things that result in harm or evil to others.

Sexual morality is hotly contested, especially where religion is involved. People don’t agree these days on sexual questions (such as which sex acts are morally licit and which aren’t) and even disagree on the basis on which sexual norms should be built. Religious people usually emphasize a divine law, command or will approach whereby God or the founder sets certain laws regarding sex and these can never be transgressed without serious sin because of the holiness of the divine. Secular people understandably don’t want their lives hampered by religious zealots and appeal to secular rationality, usually an ethical norm derived from human reason, informed by experience and emotion.

There is also another problem in that empirical science does not work with black and white certainty and absolute proof, and rarely addresses moral issues. Scientists are not driven by moral agendas (i.e. to set out to prove homosexuality is evil). Science tries to understand natural phenomena by formulating theories and testing them against observation and experiment. If the idea fails, then it is disregarded. Scientists do not adhere to an idea because it proves a moral point or belief. So scientific findings, while they help inform moral debate, cannot decide a moral question. Proof that homosexuality is strongly heritable though in a substantial minority of people through no choice or fault of their own though, would certainly weigh against the proposition homosexuality is evil, especially if the same were found to be true of heterosexuality.

I think care should be taken in turning to science to try to merely reinforce our beliefs and prejudices. Science is not about proving true what we already believe, but about openly and without bias trying to understand what the information from natural phenomena tell us objectively about the universe and its laws. Such a process is open-ended and critical and without settled dogmas and truths. As such science often represents a refreshing respite and challenge to fundamentalist religious thinking.
 
Hi larkin,

I have to disgree. You see besides being the teachings of the Church that was started by Christ, these sins do harm the sinner more that anyone else. I am speaking from many many years of participating in these sins. My conscience had become clouded and I had lost my sense of sin. I did not have much time for others because I was so caught up in myself, in my own selfish pleasure. After I reverted back to the Church and gave up this lifestyle I slowly began to grow in virtue. Now I have such joy and peace in my life.
I am glad that you are in a better place.

But sensual pleasure, when in control, is not evil, nor is it a sin. It could be that you have swung from one extreme on the spectrum to the other.
 
I don’t think there is irrefutable proof ‘against’ homosexuality being inherited. But the connection between human sexuality and genetics is still not clearly understood and I think care should be taken when drawing moral conclusions from genetic science. I think sensible ethical thinking takes into account the evidence of natural and human sciences but we need to be very careful when drawing normative conclusions about human behaviour from the natural world, whether for or against homosexuality. Humans have evolved in a unique manner and while humans are animals, we also have a degree of conciousness, intelligence and choice that allows us to plan and choose our actions to a degree perhaps no other animal can.

I think in sexual morality there are dangerous extremes that must be avoided. I think the extremes might be called ‘hedonism’ and ‘puritanism.’ As with other areas of moral choice, too much emphasis can be placed on desire and instinct or freedom to the point people merely do something because ‘it feels right’ or ‘I must do it because my instincts or desires made me do it.’ I think our freedom is precious and it is a cop-out to do things just on impulse, as much sexual activity in our culture seems to be based on. The other extreme is a rigid puritanical ideal which regards sex as polluting and evil in all its forms and narrows the acceptable types of sexual behaviour to an unrealistic range, not recognising the diversity of human individuals. The attitude of the Christian church has at times leaned strongly towards the puritanical view, even towards sex in heterosexual lifelong marriage, while secular views seem to err too much on the hedonist side, against the puritanical view.

All people are animals and biological creatures of flesh and blood, and as such, we are also sexual. It would be inhuman to deny this. But we also have concious minds capable of moral decision making, conscience, and choice. As such we also have a responsibility to avoid doing things that result in harm or evil to others.

Sexual morality is hotly contested, especially where religion is involved. People don’t agree these days on sexual questions (such as which sex acts are morally licit and which aren’t) and even disagree on the basis on which sexual norms should be built. Religious people usually emphasize a divine law, command or will approach whereby God or the founder sets certain laws regarding sex and these can never be transgressed without serious sin because of the holiness of the divine. Secular people understandably don’t want their lives hampered by religious zealots and appeal to secular rationality, usually an ethical norm derived from human reason, informed by experience and emotion.

There is also another problem in that empirical science does not work with black and white certainty and absolute proof, and rarely addresses moral issues. Scientists are not driven by moral agendas (i.e. to set out to prove homosexuality is evil). Science tries to understand natural phenomena by formulating theories and testing them against observation and experiment. If the idea fails, then it is disregarded. Scientists do not adhere to an idea because it proves a moral point or belief. So scientific findings, while they help inform moral debate, cannot decide a moral question. Proof that homosexuality is strongly heritable though in a substantial minority of people through no choice or fault of their own though, would certainly weigh against the proposition homosexuality is evil, especially if the same were found to be true of heterosexuality.

I think care should be taken in turning to science to try to merely reinforce our beliefs and prejudices. Science is not about proving true what we already believe, but about openly and without bias trying to understand what the information from natural phenomena tell us objectively about the universe and its laws. Such a process is open-ended and critical and without settled dogmas and truths. As such science often represents a refreshing respite and challenge to fundamentalist religious thinking.
This is a terrific post.
 
Typical Anglican, via media style:)

Greg, is your supposition ‘homosexuality is more a moral question than a biological choice’?
There is also another problem in that empirical science does not work with black and white certainty and absolute proof, and rarely addresses moral issues. Scientists are not driven by moral agendas (i.e. to set out to prove homosexuality is evil). Science tries to understand natural phenomena by formulating theories and testing them against observation and experiment. If the idea fails, then it is disregarded. Scientists do not adhere to an idea because it proves a moral point or belief. So scientific findings, while they help inform moral debate, cannot decide a moral question. Proof that homosexuality is strongly heritable though in a substantial minority of people through no choice or fault of their own though, would certainly weigh against the proposition homosexuality is evil, especially if the same were found to be true of heterosexuality.
 
I don’t think there is irrefutable proof ‘against’ homosexuality being inherited. But the connection between human sexuality and genetics is still not clearly understood and I think care should be taken when drawing moral conclusions from genetic science. I think sensible ethical thinking takes into account the evidence of natural and human sciences but we need to be very careful when drawing normative conclusions about human behaviour from the natural world, whether for or against homosexuality. Humans have evolved in a unique manner and while humans are animals, we also have a degree of conciousness, intelligence and choice that allows us to plan and choose our actions to a degree perhaps no other animal can.

I think in sexual morality there are dangerous extremes that must be avoided. I think the extremes might be called ‘hedonism’ and ‘puritanism.’ As with other areas of moral choice, too much emphasis can be placed on desire and instinct or freedom to the point people merely do something because ‘it feels right’ or ‘I must do it because my instincts or desires made me do it.’ I think our freedom is precious and it is a cop-out to do things just on impulse, as much sexual activity in our culture seems to be based on. The other extreme is a rigid puritanical ideal which regards sex as polluting and evil in all its forms and narrows the acceptable types of sexual behaviour to an unrealistic range, not recognising the diversity of human individuals. The attitude of the Christian church has at times leaned strongly towards the puritanical view, even towards sex in heterosexual lifelong marriage, while secular views seem to err too much on the hedonist side, against the puritanical view.

All people are animals and biological creatures of flesh and blood, and as such, we are also sexual. It would be inhuman to deny this. But we also have concious minds capable of moral decision making, conscience, and choice. As such we also have a responsibility to avoid doing things that result in harm or evil to others.

Sexual morality is hotly contested, especially where religion is involved. People don’t agree these days on sexual questions (such as which sex acts are morally licit and which aren’t) and even disagree on the basis on which sexual norms should be built. Religious people usually emphasize a divine law, command or will approach whereby God or the founder sets certain laws regarding sex and these can never be transgressed without serious sin because of the holiness of the divine. Secular people understandably don’t want their lives hampered by religious zealots and appeal to secular rationality, usually an ethical norm derived from human reason, informed by experience and emotion.

There is also another problem in that empirical science does not work with black and white certainty and absolute proof, and rarely addresses moral issues. Scientists are not driven by moral agendas (i.e. to set out to prove homosexuality is evil). Science tries to understand natural phenomena by formulating theories and testing them against observation and experiment. If the idea fails, then it is disregarded. Scientists do not adhere to an idea because it proves a moral point or belief. So scientific findings, while they help inform moral debate, cannot decide a moral question. Proof that homosexuality is strongly heritable though in a substantial minority of people through no choice or fault of their own though, would certainly weigh against the proposition homosexuality is evil, especially if the same were found to be true of heterosexuality.

I think care should be taken in turning to science to try to merely reinforce our beliefs and prejudices. Science is not about proving true what we already believe, but about openly and without bias trying to understand what the information from natural phenomena tell us objectively about the universe and its laws. Such a process is open-ended and critical and without settled dogmas and truths. As such science often represents a refreshing respite and challenge to fundamentalist religious thinking.
Greg,

I agree that there is no proof regarding how some people become ssa. I just wanted to say that the Catholic is very much in favor of science. I realize that you were talking about religious fundamentalists but I wanted to make sure you understand the Catholic position. A Catholic priest who was a scientist made up the big bang theory. We as Catholics believe in the big bang theory, evolution or other theories. We believe that God was the one who started things off. If it is proven that ssa is genetic that will not be a challenge for Catholics either because it will not change the teaching to love everyone but not the act of sin.
 
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