Irrefutable Proof against being born gay?

[CarlaOLS]

…I was not trying to “prove” anything… The precise nature of this genetic factor and its role are obviously still very unclear in the very complex area of human sexuality.

Hi Larkin - I didn’t mean to sound accusatory - but I hope we both know we are only trying to understand each other better.

In my opinion, the genetic factor known as the “gay gene” has been sufficiently disproved. That being said, there are factors one may be born with that can play a role in the list of contributory causes of homosexual orientation such as personality, BUT, and this is the most important point that “born that way” theorists miss,

those factors CAN NOT OF THEMSELVES CAUSE A HOMOSEXUAL ORIENTATION.

If you can concede this very important point, our discussion could move lightyears ahead.

Imagine we we’re in math class, and given an if/then statement:
If a and b and c then d, with a being a genetic factor, b and c being negative environmental factors, and d being homosexual orientation. With such a statement d could not occur with a alone.
Now imagine another statement:
If a and e and f then n, with n being the norm of heterosexual orientation. and e and f being positive environmental factors etc
Different factors different outcome but same a.
We agree it is complex. Using the same logic, the question becomes:
Can changing/repairing negative factors change (whether lessen, elimiminate or alter) orientation?

Literally thousands of cases prove it to be possible.
Let’s all keep talking - this is important.
Love and peace in Jesus

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

those factors CAN NOT OF THEMSELVES CAUSE A HOMOSEXUAL ORIENTATION.

 

[Via_Dolorosa]

I grew up in a new sub-division. Before I knew anything aout sex I knew that “Patty” was more masculine. She didn’t play with Barbies and had no interest in doing “girl things”.We were all under 5 years of age. I think 'Pattty " was born
that way.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

I grew up in a new sub-division. Before I knew anything aout sex I knew that “Patty” was more masculine. She didn’t play with Barbies and had no interest in doing “girl things”.We were all under 5 years of age. I think 'Pattty " was born
that way.

Born what way? Homosexual? This is stereotypical behaviour. Does what one does make for what one is? Don’t think so, not all the time:

“It (homosexuality) has taken a great variety of forms throughout the centuries and in different cultures. It’s psychological genesis remains largely unexplained” (CCC 2357)

Why does the Church consider homosexual sexual acts disordered? Because the Church believes “sexuality is ordered toward the conjugal love of man and woman” (CCC 2360)

 

[Elizabeth502]

I grew up in a new sub-division. Before I knew anything aout sex I knew that “Patty” was more masculine. She didn’t play with Barbies and had no interest in doing “girl things”.We were all under 5 years of age. I think 'Pattty " was born that way.

This post refers to the spectrum of comfort in gender roles, and that’s all it refers to. It references legitimate and natural variants, and does not indicate sexual attraction per se, but rather relates to a non-standard gender role. There are “effeminate” straight men and “masculine” straight women. Read Sexual Authenticity by Melinda Selmys, which discusses the author’s previous confusion between the two and her personal journey toward understanding her unique personal female identity and integrating that within her chosen heterosexual lifestyle.

Other excellent reading is Brain Sex (a classic), discussing innate wiring and the dominant tendencies along the male/female spectrum which in no way determines genital behavior or even ultimate attraction.

 

[CarlaOLS]

Perfectly stated Elizabeth!

On the other note, the Church has NOT stated there is no “cure” for homosexuality - quotes taken out of context aside. The Persona statement taken in full context is better understood to mean even if there were individuals deemed incurable the Church’s teaching would remain the same. The Church, who never claims to make scientific conclusions, is covering her bases for those who feel or think this way or that. Because in the last analysis, Kolbe has it right as far as morality of the Church’s teaching goes - IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE - CHASTITY IS REQUIRED OF ALL, as is compassion for those who struggle with SSA.

Two words are unfortunate and prove inflamatory in this discussion; “cure” and “choice.”

No one who understands SSA would claim SSA is anyone’s choice, nor that it is caused by behavior, NOR that it can be cured by changing behavior. In fact merely trying to squelch the urges and behavior without any deep introspection and psychological digging is how so many souls fail at remaining chaste and changing what’s unhealthy in the attractions. (Peer envy, lust, desire to own etc.) Such souls are not on a path to wholeness and holiness.

There may be a small fraction of souls who are meant to carry this heavy cross and never fully experience thier heterosexuality, (but are meant to live a chaste life), but the problem with that is most sufferers would place themselves in the category of “incurable” avoiding the hard work and daily struggle required of healing the past and of change. It reminds me of the minute percentage of obese people with thyroid problems, and the huge numbers of obese people who use thyroid and genetics as an excuse to stop trying to lose weight.
“Everyone changes,” a saintly bishop wrote, “Saints are just those who change more often*.”

 

[Elizabeth502]

No one who understands SSA would claim SSA is anyone’s choice, nor that it is caused by behavior, NOR that it can be cured by changing behavior. ***In fact merely trying to squelch the urges and behavior without any deep introspection and psychological digging is how so many souls fail at remaining chaste and changing what’s unhealthy in the attractions. (Peer envy, lust, desire to own etc.) *** Such souls are not on a path to wholeness and holiness.

I’ll have to return the compliment to Carla for post 442. The paragraph above is what was discussed in the Deep in Scripture program I referenced earlier, particularly the portion I bolded. So although hedonism is often named as the culprit for the rampant rise in and “celebration” of modern disorders, perhaps sloth is more at the heart of it: psychological and spiritual laziness, and a departure from introspection. (The program also discussed this.)

 

[larkin31]

Hi Larkin - I didn’t mean to sound accusatory - but I hope we both know we are only trying to understand each other better.

In my opinion, the genetic factor known as the “gay gene” has been sufficiently disproved. That being said, there are factors one may be born with that can play a role in the list of contributory causes of homosexual orientation such as personality, BUT, and this is the most important point that “born that way” theorists miss,

those factors CAN NOT OF THEMSELVES CAUSE A HOMOSEXUAL ORIENTATION.

But this phrasing of an absolute claim toward the vague “those factors” has not been proven. So, no, I will not grant this. It has not been proven that genetic factors alone “cannot cause homosexual orientation.” It is, however, very likely that there is much more to sexual identity than only genetics. I will certainly concede this.

The rest of your post appears to be about modifying behaviors. And yes, for the most part, humans can modify behavior. But so what? What is your point with that?

 

[Jokoangel]

**.**Growing up we had close neighbors which I will call Jane and John. Jane and John married and produced a daughter who was very masculine all of her life. John passed on and Jane married Jack. They produced a son who was and is still very feminine in all of his ways.

I had concluded that the if there was a cause for this, then I would have to deduce that the “fault” was with the mother’s genes. Granted that both the children chose to live in sin, I also have wondered all these years why the products of a very Catholic family had to live with this burden despite years of prayer.

Another family: Grandmother & Grandfather produced 4 children.

Child #1 (straight) produced out of 6 children: 2 gay children, 1 with strong gay characteristics, and 3 were heterosexual with one of these producing one gay child…

Child #2 (straight) produced 1 son with very strong gay characteristics.

Child #3 produced 3 children - 1 child with strong gay characteristics but who married and had no children, and also produced 2 heterosexual.children…

Child #4 was gay.

Of this family, I wonder about the genes that seemed to work haphazardly.

Knowing these families, I still continue to fall on the side of it being an inherited situation in both families. What say you???

.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

12 March 2010 Australia (Cathnews)

“A leading Catholic ethicist has endorsed the decision to recognise a 48-year-old Sydney woman as the first person in New South Wales to officially be neither a man nor woman…A certificate from the Registry of Births, Deaths and Marriages that says ‘sex not specified.’…Catholic ethicist, Nicholas Tonti-Filippini from the John Paul 2 Institute said there was a trend against the practice of selecting a sex for intersex children, which could mean more androgynous people in future.”

There is a trend against the practice of selecting a sex for homosexual children:npatrol:
which could mean more homosexual people in future.

The classification continuum of male/female sexuality is broadening.:grouphug:

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

.
I had concluded that the if there was a cause for this, then I would have to deduce that the “fault” was with the mother’s genes. Granted that both the children chose to live in sin, I also have wondered all these years why the products of a very Catholic family had to live with this burden despite years of prayer.

The Catholic Church teaches homosexuality is a disorder:knight2:

Some geneticists think it is pre-determined on the chromosomes of the mother:byzsoc:

And that, outside mitigating circumstances, the Catholic Church teaches sexual acts between people of the same sex is a sinkpeople::hug3:

Behavioural psychologists say the cause is environmental.:stretcher:

Has anyone yet posted demonic influence? Or possession of a soul by demons? Can anyone be thinking exorcism may help?

 

[CarlaOLS]

Jeesh - the waters are muddy, topic jumping etc.

But I would like to address the subject of modifying behaviors versus true change. Homosexual behaviors are the least of the problem for someone who struggles with homosexuality. I’ll return to the overweight people anaogy. Many dieters would seem to have success by changing their eating and exercising behaviors, and for a while lose weight and keep it off. Yet studies are showing few experience lasting change, returning to their old ways and even gaining more weight than they originally lost. Experts point out the importance of an individual getting to the bottom of why they overeat, what lies in thier past etc.

In a similar way, the more SSA persons understand their past, their environment, and relationships, the less power SSA has over them. It becomes more important to find and fill needs, learning what is really behind every urge and drive, than it is to change learned behaviors.

 

[larkin31]

Jeesh - the waters are muddy, topic jumping etc.

But I would like to address the subject of modifying behaviors versus true change. Homosexual behaviors are the least of the problem for someone who struggles with homosexuality. I’ll return to the overweight people anaogy. Many dieters would seem to have success by changing their eating and exercising behaviors, and for a while lose weight and keep it off. Yet studies are showing few experience lasting change, returning to their old ways and even gaining more weight than they originally lost. Experts point out the importance of an individual getting to the bottom of why they overeat, what lies in thier past etc.

In a similar way, the more SSA persons understand their past, their environment, and relationships, the less power SSA has over them. It becomes more important to find and fill needs, learning what is really behind every urge and drive, than it is to change learned behaviors.

Obesity has been linked to genetic factors, as well, and to certain neurological responses in the brain.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Obesity has been linked to genetic factors, as well, and to certain neurological responses in the brain.

Please. Thirty-four percent of Americans are not genetically obese.

reuters.com/article/idUSTRE50863H20090109

Some of the people on CAF in general who claim they are seeking, or referring to, “scientifc” sources or arguments, are as lacking in scientific and authoritative argument as those who rely strictly on ancient scriptural reference points.

 

[larkin31]

Please. Thirty-four percent of Americans are not genetically obese…

No one said that they were. Why do you take the suggestion of a causal factor and turn it into an absolute claim of determinism in order to refute it? I did not say that it was determined genetically, nor even that it is primarily genetic. And the same is true for human sexuality: both logic (the genetic basis of life and reproduction) and the results of some studies suggest a possible genetic causal factor, although clearly not a primary one.

That’s all I was saying.

You can return to your absolutist language now, if you would prefer.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

QUOTE=CarlaOLS;6399351
Jeesh - the waters are muddy, topic jumping etc.

I cannot see a causal link between obesity and homosexuality: “All swans are black, this is black therefore it is a swan.” Obesity and homosexuality, a convenient link for argument’s sake, ultimately irreconcilable and illogical.

But I would like to address the subject of modifying behaviors versus true change. Homosexual behaviors are the least of the problem for someone who struggles with homosexuality. I’ll return to the overweight people anaogy. Many dieters would seem to have success by changing their eating and exercising behaviors, and for a while lose weight and keep it off. Yet studies are showing few experience lasting change, returning to their old ways and even gaining more weight than they originally lost. Experts point out the importance of an individual getting to the bottom of why they overeat, what lies in thier past etc.

A homosexual remains a homosexual unless he/she can get to the root cause of their behaviour? If he/she is not 'cured he/she is just not trying, has not looked hard enough. Does not want to change? That fault is within ourselves.

In a similar way, the more SSA persons understand their past, their environment, and relationships, the less power SSA has over them. It becomes more important to find and fill needs, learning what is really behind every urge and drive, than it is to change learned behaviors.

“In denying determinism, Christians are often in danger of embracing a prideful claim that their choices and actions are totally free and unconditioned by their material existence. We are dangerously close to a self-deifying view that denies the finitude and dependency in which we exist…Principal among these are the highly humanistic definitions of rationality, an individualistic, rationalistic and hedonistic vision of human health and troublesome understandings of rationality and emotion” (Jones & Butman, 1991)

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

SSA clients often present material which indicates self-hatred, loathing, fear, and sometimes frank homophobia, they are expressing views already held in the wide community and can suffer as a consequence (Lima, 1993). The client can experience great conflict in his or her own mind between what were perhaps once strongly held moral beliefs emanating from religious faith and what they have come to believe is right for him or her as an individual. Could it be that many authors, biblical experts, researchers, political activists, professional counsellors, and others start with an opinion about homosexuality and then do research or interpret Scripture in ways that support their positions? In many ways labelling sexual orientation is meaningless and we need to constantly bear in mind the uniqueness and fluidity of each person over time.

 

[Elizabeth502]

No one said that they were. Why do you take the suggestion of a causal factor and turn it into an absolute claim of determinism in order to refute it? I did not say that it was determined genetically, nor even that it is primarily genetic. And the same is true for human sexuality: both logic (the genetic basis of life and reproduction) and the results of some studies suggest a possible genetic causal factor, although clearly not a primary one.

That’s all I was saying.

You can return to your absolutist language now, if you would prefer.

It is not I who is the absolutist, or confused about language, but you. Own your words, sir. Here is what you said:

Obesity has been linked to genetic factors, as well, and to certain neurological responses in the brain.

Not a small percentage of obesity, but merely obesity. When modifiers are not introduced, the reader can legitimately assume a generality. That’s the way the English language works. It’s up to the speaker/writer to modify or qualify the term if the term is not meant generally. It’s also up to the writer, when making a point, to understand that juxtaposition and sequence also imply meaning. So when someone talks about SSA and you randomly introduce the general concept of obesity and genetics, it’s legitimate for the reader to conclude that you’re trying to make a direct and general comparison.

Again, all that has been most likely shown by research is that there is a probability among some as-yet-undetermined portion of the population of having certain aspects of the personality inclined toward SSA before environmental factors are factored in.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

There is no clearly identified single cause of homosexuality and it is impossible to guage how many people there are with SSA and temptations to engage in same-sex acts. Homosexual desires and tendencies are not in themselves sinful. Unfortunately, homosexual drives are the least understood and the least tolerated by the Church. May we learn to love homosexuals with Christ’s love, a love of understanding and compassion.

 

[larkin31]

It is not I who is the absolutist, or confused about language, but you. Own your words, sir. Here is what you said:

Not a small percentage of obesity, but merely obesity. When modifiers are not introduced, the reader can legitimately assume a generality. That’s the way the English language works. It’s up to the speaker/writer to modify or qualify the term if the term is not meant generally. It’s also up to the writer, when making a point, to understand that juxtaposition and sequence also imply meaning. So when someone talks about SSA and you randomly introduce the general concept of obesity and genetics, it’s legitimate for the reader to conclude that you’re trying to make a direct and general comparison.

Again, all that has been most likely shown by research is that there is a probability among some as-yet-undetermined portion of the population of having certain aspects of the personality inclined toward SSA before environmental factors are factored in.

it’s the worked “linked” and “factor” that should have suggested for you the limits of the claim I made