Irreverent Mass

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JReducation said:
I’m not asking you to deny that Remi was there.

I’m asking you to retract the inferrence that you’re making that this is an example of the OF approved by the Church and that this is also approved by the bishops.

Neither of these inferrences that you made are true.

You can say that Remi was there, but that this is not the OF approved by the Church. You can also say that the Bishops do not approve of this mass or this group. You can also say that this is not the norm for the Catholic Church or the Catholic Epsicopacy.

Then your condemnation of Remi and his group would have credibility. But as long as you leave these blanks, you’re a like a jailhouse lawyer, leaving out the good stuff and hoping that the jury won’t notice it.

JR 🙂
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This gives me a better understanding of posts # 203, and # 205 of this thread.

I just finished having to correct myself about 10 minutes ago in another thread.
 
The quote in post #200 is from the website indicated and reflects their opinions on the subject. The website was quoted to support the fact that the Mass in question was presided over by a retired bishop.
 
It would not be possible for us (as lay people) to establish for certainty that any particular mass was conducted irreverently or validly.
We can have our suspicions and do some inquiring as to those issues but I would suggest that no sin is committed unless we partake in a mass of which we have prior knowledge of it’s invalidity.

Gerry
 
gavanhe said:
It would not be possible for us (as lay people) to establish for certainty that any particular mass was conducted irreverently or validly.
We can have our suspicions and do some inquiring as to those issues but I would suggest that no sin is committed unless we partake in a mass of which we have prior knowledge of it’s invalidity.

Gerry
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Unless the lay persone happens to have very good theological training and knows the rules of liturgy not only in the missal, but in the diocese.

In addition, you have to know this ahead of time. I would not attend mass at an SSPX or a Call to Action gathering, because we know ahead of time that they are in trouble.

If I were visiting your town and no nothing about it, just looking for a Chruch, how the heck am I guilty of what I walked into?

JR 🙂
 
bobzills said:
The quote in post #200 is from the website indicated and reflects their opinions on the subject. The website was quoted to support the fact that the Mass in question was presided over by a retired bishop.
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But you made no effort to separate that mass from the OF approved by the Church or to state that the bishop is in good standing with the Church or that the bishops do not approve of this form of liturgy.

You also made no effort to let the readers know that the bishop is no longer connected with Call to Action.

JR 🙂
 
bobzills said:
In every diocese? Or is it only in the diocese of Bishop Bruskewicz, Lincoln, Nebraska?
According to the ewtn news service: “The excommunication order applies only within the Lincoln, Nebraska diocese.”
ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=74096

Also, certain conditions had to be satisfied in the diocese of Lincoln, Nebraska for this excommunication to take effect, so I don;t see where you could say that every member of the Call to Action in the diocese of Lincoln Nebraska, was automatically excommunicated . And isn’t Bishop de Roo listed as an emeritus bishop in good standing in the RCC?
Also, in addition to Bishop de Roo appearing at the Call to Action conferences, I know that at the 1995 Call to Action conference, the Bishop of Partenia Jacques Gaillot, and the auxiliary Bishop of Detroit Thomas Gumbleton, were speakers.
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Here are some important parts of the article you posted that you may have overlooked:

"The Vatican has determined that “the activities of ‘Call to Action’ in the course of these years are in contrast with the Catholic Faith due to views and positions held which are unacceptable from a doctrinal and disciplinary standpoint,” Cardinal Re writes. He concludes: “Thus to be a member of this Association or to support it, is irreconcilable with a coherent living of the Catholic Faith.”

“But the Vatican’s judgment against Call to Action **raises clear questions about the status of the group’s members in other dioceses.” **

It is also essential to realize that those in Lincoln Nebraska have been formally excommunicated; however, the Church need not formally recognize one as excommunicated, as when someone willfully denies a necessary dogma of the faith they have already excommunicated themselves. Thus, I would be very very careful before casting my lot with heretics.
 
bobzills said:
Here is more liturgical dancing, for those who say that there is no liturgical dancing in the Catholic Church.
youtube.com/watch?v=sRULNTperWE
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And, we’re supposed to believe that this took place at a legitimate Catholic Mass at a legitmate Catholic Church, right?

That could have been done in a studio, anywhere.

Gimme a break…some new material, please 🤷
 
ethelzguy said:
And, we’re supposed to believe that this took place at a legitimate Catholic Mass at a legitmate Catholic Church, right?

That could have been done in a studio, anywhere.

Gimme a break…some new material, please 🤷
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:eek: Awe, come on! Youtube, it’s a legitimate source, isn’t it? 🙂
 
I recall a Mass I went to a couple of years ago where there was dancing.

Instead of candles, they had large metal vats on stands around the altar with fire shooting out. I remember thinking it looked like a pagan sacrifice ritual. An amply built middle-aged woman in a leotard and tights danced around for quite sometime and at the end of the performance she imitated the postion of the Lord Jesus on the cross and hung her head. It was the strangest thing I ever saw in a Catholic Church.
 
Youtube has some great clips of Bishop Fulton Sheen, and some outstanding performances by jazz musicians; as for veracity concerning controversial subjects…hmmm?

(@ nannygirl : I’m so glad I wasn’t there. At the end of that dance they expect you to start praying, while all you can keep thinking of is , “What was that?!!”)

I remember a Catholic elementary school’s year end Mass during the week a few years ago. All the students came to Mass with the teachers. There were about 4 of the young students dressed in albs (our daily Mass was replaced with the Mas & Liturgy for children that day). They did what would be classified as a liturgical dance during the Our Father, but they weren’t prancing around, they were projecting the prayer visually in the form of gestures. It wasn’t overdone. It was kept very simple and it was so beautiful that by the end of the prayer some of us were in tears.

That’s the only time I can remember in my life liturgical dance moving me the right way.
 
ethelzguy said:
And, we’re supposed to believe that this took place at a legitimate Catholic Mass at a legitmate Catholic Church, right?

That could have been done in a studio, anywhere.

Gimme a break…some new material, please 🤷
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Why give you a break? You are Catholic aren’t you? The Congress was attended by Cardinal Cláudio Hummes, new prefect of the Vatican Congregation for Clergy, and Archbishop Stanislaw Rylko, president of the Pontifical Council for the Laity, and the Pope conferred his apostolic blessing on the assembly. Now should we follow what you say or should a Catholic follow a Congress which has been blessed by the Pope?
youtube.com/watch?v=sRULNTperWE
Isn’t it disobedient for a Catholic to oppose a Congress which has been blessed by the Pope?
 
I think the question of liturgical dancing has been beaten to death on this thread and I am unsure what the purpose of prolonging the discussion is.

There has been liturgical dancing at Catholic masses. We all know this. Some of it has been very beautiful and moving and some not so. A fat lady in tights is not my idea of beauty; therefore, I probably would have laughed. I would not have been laughing at the mass, but at the figure in front of me.

That being said, let’s not overkill the topic. We know that it is banned from the liturgy. We also know that some have not taken the ban seriously.

We also know that the writings that have come out of the Vatican on this matter have also recognized that in some cultures this is a part of worship and that it is important to integrate culture into liturgy without desecrating the liturgy or reformatting it. I’m assuming they are referring to indigenous cultures of South America, Africa, Australia and even some parts of Asia.

While the Vatican has been very clear on the ban of liturgical dance, it has also been very clear on respect for cultures. Therefore, the Vatican seems to have preserved some kind of mental balance on this matter.

We on CAF, on the other hand, seem to have lost our sense of balance. Allow me to explain. While we have read and studied the ban on liturgical dance and we have also read that some continue to include it in the liturgy, despite the ban. We have lost our balance in making this the greatest, for some people, the sole concern regarding the liturgy.

When you make the erradication of one fault your mission and you discuss it daily and for some posters, several times a day, you have lost your sense of balance.

We are all called to protect the liturgy from abuse and irreverance. However, we are also called to prayer, family life, sacramental life, contemplation, corporal works of mercy, enjoying the gifts of nature, protecting our children from harm, raising good families, spending time with others, producing so that everyone has what they need and much more.

We are called to listen to the Word of God in the liturgy and to discuss it amongst us and see where it leads us. We are called to recall the mysteries of faith that are revealed to us through liturgy and to share those with others and to discuss them with others.

We are called to encounter the Lord in liturgy and share that encounter.

For example, yesterday was Corpus Christi, has anyone on this thread posted anything beautiful that they experienced during the celebration of this solemnity? Has anyone posted how reverent their parish celebrated this solemnity and this mystery?

I realize that the thread is entitled “irreverant mass”. But in order to recognize what is irreverant, we must have a point of reference. If no one shares those points, then how will our brothers and sisters learn the difference.

For example, in my parish the friars preached a beautiful sermon on the purpose of approaching the Lord in the Eucharist and the difference between approaching out of habit and approaching the Lord after serious contemplative prayer that moves us to great love for Christ present in the Eucharist.

The superior of our religious community in our parish wrote a beautiful letter that was read at the end of the mass in which he reinforced the importance of receiving the Eucharist with proper attitude, in a state of grace and the importance of Eucharistic adoration as the greatest act of charity.

Before mass, the friars asked everyone to stop and think about those who have fallen in war, on both sides, and to pray for them, being that this is Memorial Day weekend. We began our morning with prayer for peace and for the dead. Then moved into the celebration of the mass for Corpus Christi. It was a very smooth transition. It was very important for one family who lost their father in Iraq.

Let us not just focus on liturgical dance 24/7 or any fault for that matter. Otherwise, we will become neurotic. Let us strike a balance between this is right and this is wrong and share both. This way we have a point of reference and spiritual sanity.

JR 🙂
 
bobzills said:
So why then are there impertinent comments such as in post #227?
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It could be many things: they could be sincerely happy to have the Lord with them, and it probably isn’t part of a mass, and it might be liturgically wrong. Things are not as simple black and white as you make them out to be.
 
According to St Alphonsus the rubrics bind by mortal sin. But that’s regarding the priest.
 
ethelzguy said:
And, we’re supposed to believe that this took place at a legitimate Catholic Mass at a legitmate Catholic Church, right?

That could have been done in a studio, anywhere.

Gimme a break…some new material, please 🤷
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Whether or not this video took place at a Catholic Church does not rule out the fact that abuses like this have in fact and do in fact take place at Catholic Churches. The point is that these are abuses and the fact that they continue demonstrates the lack of oversight and correction on the part of the bishops who often times turn a blind eye to these abuses or simply move the priest away. Lack of discipline and oversight by the bishops has in my opinion been the root cause of why the Church is suffering so greatly and why heresies are being spread regularly by priests and even bishops and why priestly scandals have persisted. Let us all pray regularly and sincerely for the bishops and the pope that they will lead the Church of Christ dutifully and that they will never neglect the fullness of their call to be overseers (which is what the word bishop actually means). May we, the priests, bishops, and pope all love not only in thought nor only in word but in our deeds.

As to what is going right in the liturgy, let us all thank God for Pope Benedict’s Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum, which expands the use of the Traditional Latin Mass by any priest who so desires at any parish and which permits any group of the faithful to have the TLM made readily available within a reasonable distance from them. Let us also thank God that the Church is now experiencing a turn to embracing her Tradition and traditional forms of worship. This fact is readily apparent among the more recent seminarians who no longer have time to meddle in liberalism and liturgical changes but who desire to embrace the fullness of the Catholic faith and worship as the Church has been doing for 2000 years.
God bless.
 
Hi, I agree with both ethelzguy and una fides. The two of you have valid concerns.

First, ethelzguy how about maybe they weren’t really Catholic or even if they were, they could’ve haved mocked the Catholic Church. There are plenty of people who disrespect our Church, both within and without. This is nothing new, and still will continue after we are gone. Look at so-called Catholic entertainers, politicians, business people, who for a quick laugh, for a vote, or a quick buck. Will target the Church, because of how we do things.

Second, una fides I agree that this spectacle was disrespectful. Since when is the monstrance a dance partner? The “dancing” was hodge podge and wild. No respectful prayerful choreography. It should have stopped when the priest when to the altar to get the monstrance. I think “liturgical dancing” is appropriate at times. But this You Tube video is a perfect example of over-the-top enhancements that got out of control. I’ve seen really good “liturgical dancing” with respectful prayer gestures, the “dancers” looking serious and committed to their gift they bring to the altar & people, modest dance appearel, knowing when to stop, etc. They also at times bring in banners, bowls of burning incense, act as a type of honor guard, bring in the altar linens and set the altar. So, at times it does serve a very useful purpose at liturgical and para-liturgical celebrations. But again anything can get overblown and over done.

Two more points and I’ll stop. 1st point- The video itself. Generally speaking videos are not conclusive evidence of proving anything. Do you remember the infamous Rodney King video of him being beatened by the LAPD in 1991? The beating was overdone by the police. But what was said before and after? By R.K.? The LAPD? Did the video show who started it? Did Mr. K. have a prior record? Did he provoke them? Anyway video has to be backed by longer versions, than just a few minutes of johnny come lately shooting. What was said and did it get recorded also? Does the videographer have an agenda? 2nd point? Whoops, I forgot. Oh, well just as well.
 
una_fides said:
The point is that these are abuses and the fact that they continue demonstrates the lack of oversight and correction on the part of the bishops who often times turn a blind eye to these abuses or simply move the priest away…
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First of all, these were only clips and you weren’t there to see and participate in the whole Mass. Secondly, why would you say that these are abuses? If people are gettings something positive out of this type of celebration by a Catholic bishop and if the other Catholic bishops and authorities don’t see anything wrong with it, then that’s the way it is.
 
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