Irreverent Mass

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TradCatholic12

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Would it be a sin to participate in a irreverent Novus Ordo Mass, or any form of Mass for that matter? If so would it be a mortal or venial sin? I’m asking this because I had to participate in the Novus Ordo Mass this morning and it was irreverent (music, piano, priest changing the words, etc.).
 
As long as it was not rock, pop, secular type music it would be venial sin. But if there was rock, pop, secular type music, and/or dancing, and/or grave liturgical abuse, it would be a mortal sin as it would be sacrilegious.
 
TradCatholic12 said:
Would it be a sin to participate in a irreverent Novus Ordo Mass, or any form of Mass for that matter? If so would it be a mortal or venial sin? I’m asking this because I had to participate in the Novus Ordo Mass this morning and it was irreverent (music, piano, priest changing the words, etc.).
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How can you sin by virtue of what someone else has done? You didn’t select the music or preside at the Mass.
 
totus_tuus2009 said:
As long as it was not rock, pop, secular type music it would be venial sin. But if there was rock, pop, secular type music, and/or dancing, and/or grave liturgical abuse, it would be a mortal sin as it would be sacrilegious.
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Just curious as to what criteria you used to make that judgement?

🤷
 
ethelzguy said:
Just curious as to what criteria you used to make that judgement?

🤷
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This is my personal opinion, therefore I could be wrong. Irreverent modern piano music in Church is not pleasing to God and is not appropriate to liturgical rites. However, the rock, pop, secular music, dance, etc. is a profanation of a sacred space therefore Sacrilegious.
Again this is my opinion informed by sermons of good and holy priests and the Holy Father himself of sacred music appropriate to the Liturgy.
 
totus_tuus2009 said:
This is my personal opinion, therefore I could be wrong. Irreverent modern piano music in Church is not pleasing to God and is not appropriate to liturgical rites.
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I’ll believe that when God Himself says so. I doubt very much if you are God’s spokesman.

If your opinion has been formed through sermons, I would respectfully suggest that sermons regarding the Lord, Scripture, faith, morality, etc. are far more appropriate topics for homilies.

As for the Holy Father, he also is not God’s spokesman with every word he utters, only in infallible statements. He has made no such infallible statement regarding music, and thus speaks from him human preference for certain types or styles of music.

As for the OP’s claim that the priest was “changing the words,” I would have liked him/her to have given an example. Is the priest really changing words (and Lord knows enough of them do 🤷 ) or was he using one of the many legitimate options available in the Sacramentary?

As for the OP’s claim that the Mass was “irreverent,” maybe it was, but it does not seem so by the way it was described. Many “traditional” Catholics scream “irreverence!” just because something is not to their liking (i.e. the music - example: the use of a piano… NOT irreverent 🙂 ; a piano playing a secular tune as in a lounge or bar… irreverent :nope: ). Just because one person doesn’t like something doesn’t make a Mass irreverent. That’s as subjective as saying, “I love broccoli!” or “I hate broccoli!”
 
Irreverent does not mean invalid. We might not like it but it is on the priest not the congregation that has to answer for the irreverence. Christ is still present in the validly consecrated Eucharist.

Participating in a known invalid Mass might be a sin if the criteria of KNOWN SIN is there prior to the Mass.

Participating in a known illicit Mass might also be a sin, if you had the opportunity to go to a licit Mass and chose not to do so to fulfill your obligation.
 
KathleenElsie said:
Participating in a known illicit Mass might also be a sin, if you had the opportunity to go to a licit Mass and chose not to do so to fulfill your obligation.
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Key word here is “known”. We don’t know what state of sanctifying grace the priest is in or what his intentions are. We have to assume his bishop’s fully ok with whatever is going on.
 
TradCatholic12 said:
Would it be a sin to participate in a irreverent Novus Ordo Mass, or any form of Mass for that matter? If so would it be a mortal or venial sin? I’m asking this because I had to participate in the Novus Ordo Mass this morning and it was irreverent (music, piano, priest changing the words, etc.).
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So you’re saying I spent the morning playing an irreverent instrument for Mass?

What a mean thing to say.

Your sin is not attending an irreverent Mass. Your sin is labelling your brothers and sisters in Christ, including the priest, as “sinful.” Whether this sin is mortal or venial is not for me to say. But remember that a critical, complaining spirit caused the Lord to bar the children of Israel from the Promised Land (Numbers 14, especially vs. 27-30).

Thankfully, Father thanked not only the choir director, the Eucharistic ministers, the altar servers, the ushers, and also the pianist (me) this morning after Mass. He is the one ordained a priest, a representative of Jesus, not YOU. So I will humbly accept Father’s thanks and ignore YOUR hateful remark about a musical instrument.
 
Can we say a Pharisee mentality? The Jewish leaders of Jesus’ time thought and said they were holier-than-thou. He constantly rebuked them, he even cursed and condemned them. Jesus said that man was not made for the Sabbath, but the Sabbath was made for man.
Remember Jesus said He was Lord of the Sabbath. He had some “radical ideas” on the way Jews worshipped. My question is, What would the TLMers say or do if Jesus came today and he had made changes to the Latin Mass?
 
Cat said:
Thankfully, Father thanked not only the choir director, the Eucharistic ministers, the altar servers, the ushers, and also the pianist (me) this morning after Mass.
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That’s good but those that “just” attend Mass are hardly ever thanked for coming. Why not? Once I traveled more than anyone else in the midst of a snowstorm; no one thanked me for coming but I was supposed to applaud the EMs and the female servers?
 
ProVobis said:
That’s good but those that “just” attend Mass are hardly ever thanked for coming. Why not? Once I traveled more than anyone else in the midst of a snowstorm; no one thanked me for coming but I was supposed to applaud the EMs and the female servers?
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Sorry, I forgot–he thanked all the PEOPLE who came to the Mass, too, and mentioned specifically their enthusiastic participation and continued support of family Mass!

It was a wonderful Mass! Not only did I receive Jesus in the Eucharist, but also received a warm cozy feeling of “one loving family.” And his homily was quite pithy, even though it was a “children’s homily.” (I often get more out children’s homilies, although once before when I mentioned on this forum that I understand the Gospel better through children’s stories, I received several “I’m so sorry for you” posts. Well, don’t be sorry for me.)
 
All I can say is “Thank you Jesus.” In particular because he will judge us and not anyone of us will be judge.
 
TradCatholic12 said:
Would it be a sin to participate in a irreverent Novus Ordo Mass, or any form of Mass for that matter? If so would it be a mortal or venial sin? I’m asking this because I had to participate in the Novus Ordo Mass this morning and it was irreverent (music, piano, priest changing the words, etc.).
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Irreverant can be a very subjective perspective. If you say that the priest violated the rubrics and celebrated an ilicit or an invalid mass, then we have a serious problem.

If you’re saying that the music, the words and the symbols used in the mass were not according to the rules, but all of the essential elements were there, then the mass may have been in violation of some rules, but not irreverant by Church standards.

The essentials for a vaid and licit mass are:
  1. Must have both liturgies (Word and Eucharist)
  2. Must be celebrated by a validly ordained priest in good standing with the Church (otherwise it’s ilicit)
  3. The Eucharistic prayer and the words of consecration must be valid
  4. The priest must use bread and wine, no other substance
  5. The mass should be celebrated in a church, chapel or oratory. For valid reasons it can be celebrated somewhere else.
Everything else is important, but does not determine validity or licaity.

If there is a violation of any of these, the guilty person is the priest, not the person in the congregation.

JR 🙂
 
JReducation said:
If there is a violation of any of these, the guilty person is the priest, not the person in the congregation.
JR 🙂
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What if the person in the pew purposefully intends to go to such a Mass and has other options? Perhaps they do so because they find the music more appealing, or they are opposed to Church authority; or perhaps they don’t care for formal reverent worship and desire more laid back and spontaneous services?
Couldn’t it be sins in these instances as long as they have the intent to do what is wrong and know that the Church says that such masses are wrong? And by participating in such masses, aren’t they, to some degree or another, approving of the actions?
Many saints throughout the history of the Church refused to receive Communion from the hands of those who taught heresies. Scripture also clearly states that after the first or second admonition, avoid a heretic (Tit 3:10). Wouldn’t this teaching especially apply to heretical priests who teach heresies from their pulpits, perform irreverent services, and treat the Eucharist as if it were common food?
 
Show me anywhere in the Catechism or other valid source where attending an irreverent Mass is a sin for the faithful.

Sheesh

Sometimes irreverent is all that is available you know. And if the Mass is valid, one is required to attend to fulfill the Sunday obligation. No where that I know of does it say that one is excused if the Mass is not perfect. Sometimes it is only those few who recognize the abuses and suffer because of them who assuage the Heart of Jesus so offended by the sacrileges going on.

The opinion poll is just that: opinion.
 
Here are some of my experiences at NO masses:
  1. priests changing lots of words contrary to the rubrics.
    • many of these changes have been explicitly forbidden by Church authorities such as saying “for the praise and glory of God’s name” rather than “his name” and using other gender neutral words. Also changing words around consecration to “friends” rather than “apostles”, the list goes on for pages…
  2. using unlawful clear glass cups for chalices
  3. unlawfully removing holy water for all of lent
  4. covering the crucifix for all of lent and easter until pentacost (no doubt because many protestants find it offensive–and these are likely the same protestants who they permit to come up and receive Communion–see #9)
  5. “folk masses” and “life teen masses” which turn the mass into a performance that draws attention to the muscians rather than to Christ in the Eucharist. I’ve even seen people dancing around as a result of the upbeat music.
  6. teaching heresies from the pulpit including that Christ did not need to be bodily raised from the dead in order for the Christian gospel to be valid
  7. a priest emphatically teaching that people should NOT go to confession regularly, that no one commits mortal sin, and that sins can ordinarily be forgiven outside of the sacrament of confession and one instead can just pray to God directly.
  8. extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist used as the norm and even used in very small gatherings and daily masses when not at all necessary
  9. I have still yet to hear any priest teach that only Catholics can receive Communion and that they must be in a state of grace meaning that they are not conscious of any grave sins committed that have not been forgiven by prior sacramental confession
  10. That abortion, homosexuality, and contraception are not mortal sins and that they are matters of an individual’s conscience only
    The list could continue for pages, but i think you get the point. heresy and irreverence are reigning in our churches and many bishops are sitting back as if everything is just peachy
 
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