Irreverent Mass

[PatrickJT914]

I just got done looking at the video. I have a few observations and questions.
Was it a real Mass, prayer service or another para-liturgy service? If you notice Father was not wearing his chausible,only his alb and stole. Father was not dressed as a clown. The lay members involved with the Gospel reading were doing it in a dialogue manner, with Father doing the part of Jesus. Also after the Gospel the lay persons gave a laity’s perpective and reflection. But it was Father that finished it with a homily. The explanation of the symbolism of the clown make-up was good. Although maybe out of place. The lay persons should’ve went to go sit in the congregation, after they were done, so the priest would be the only one up there.
Wasn’t the cameraperson being irreverent by filming the service? It’s not entertainment. Or did they have ulterior motives? Were they actually instruments of the Devil by discrediting the service? How come they only showed the Gospel reading and homily? How do we know it was a Mass, unless we attended it ourselves?
My opinion on “clown Masses” they should not be allowed if the celebrant is dressed up as clown. One more question, was this a blessing of clowns in general? Again we don’t know the full story. Sure you can video tape things but they are not abosolute proof. It depends on when it was taken, at the beginning, middle, ending or was it shot from the very beginning to the very end. What were the events that lead to the video? What was said? Who made the video? Is there an agenda? Was the video edited? If so what was taken out? No this does not prove a thing. Oh, by the way I’m somewhat conservative in the faith.

 

[una_fides]

PatrickJT914 Honestly it sounds to me that you are more skeptical than anyone I’ve ever met.
Here are some more links to videos that you can try to speculate every way possible. Also, if there weren’t serious problems with abuses then why in the world would it have escalated as high as the Sacred Congregation for Worship to have explained these widespread occurrences and denounce them?

youtube.com/watch?v=SZ6KWt49wIA&feature=related

youtube.com/watch?v=j0yfdbxr7qM&feature=related

youtube.com/watch?v=SfKSfJ9cLwY&feature=related

youtube.com/watch?v=Fv_y47x9kSk&feature=related

youtube.com/watch?v=khco_N-uEOY&feature=related

By the way, video taping Mass is not irreverent especially when one is trying to prove to skeptics like yourself that scandalous abuses are taking place. When people defend actions like these, it makes me wonder if they really understand what takes place at the Mass and how serious a matter it is. At Mass, the sacrifice of calvary becomes present and the eternal and almighty God becomes Really substantially Present in the appearance of bread and wine. The holiness of God is so great that many recorded in Scripture died as a result of such encounters. Yet today, irreverent priests and laity seem to think mass is a joke.

Here is an article in This Rock that explains the common occurrences:catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9901fea1.asp

 

[ProVobis]

Are you saying that clown Masses can be reverent? Since when are clowns a cultural group? If a Bishop said that Nazism was okey-dokey, would that make it okay

No, I’m not being sarcastic. Call me a devil’s advocate if you want but think about it. What was the purpose of introducing a New Mass since Catholics already had a “reverent” Mass? To make it available to all walks of life, I would think. Some walks of life, call them cultures or whatever, don’t value reverence the same way many of us on this board do. But if we accept the New Mass as valid (which we should) then we accept all its variations, nuances, craziness, anomalies, and creativities. The bishop assumes the responsiblities for his souls and if we don’t accept his guidelines, then we’re being disobedient, aren’t we, and something we can technically be excommunicated for?

 

[Ave_Maria_1]

Yes, but shouldn’t one be properly disposed in order to obtain the full graces that come with the sacrament? If you’re ok with the dancing and prancing that goes on, assuming that you’ve fasted and in the state of grace, then you’re good to go. Otherwise you may need to find a more tranquil Mass, even if you have to travel a distance, in order to be disposed properly. Either way, you’ve still fulfilled your Easter duty, though.

No ‘dancing and prancing’ in our local parishes. TLM is over 250 miles east or west and I have no idea how many hundreds north to south.

 

[una_fides]

No, I’m not being sarcastic. Call me a devil’s advocate if you want but think about it. What was the purpose of introducing a New Mass since Catholics already had a “reverent” Mass? To make it available to all walks of life, I would think. Some walks of life, call them cultures or whatever, don’t value reverence the same way many of us on this board do. But if we accept the New Mass as valid (which we should) then we accept all its variations, nuances, craziness, anomalies, and creativities. The bishop assumes the responsiblities for his souls and if we don’t accept his guidelines, then we’re being disobedient, aren’t we, and something we can technically be excommunicated for?

Not to butt in, but in defense of Saint_Gemma and of the Catholic faith, I’d have to say that no one does not need to accept any “craziness, anomalies, and creativities” in the NO. In fact, these ideas have been repeatedly condemned by the Church’s hierarchy. Also keep in mind that individual bishops are by no means the final authority and they are all subject to Rome and the Roman Pontiff. Throughout history how many bishops have taught and practiced heresy and have led their people to perdition? Does the Church call for us to be obedient to such bishops who disobey their authorities (the Pope and/or God Himself)?? Lastly, would the same God who struck numerous people dead throughout Scripture for irreverence and disobedience, permit us to follow bishops who direct the flock to commit such evils? Just some food for thought.

 

[JReducation]

I attend a parish which celebrates the Pauline Mass (I know that statement’s going to garner me quite a bit of criticism just by itself, but I’m going to come out and say it straight up), and for as long as I could understand what was happening, the Masses have remained reverent. Sometimes one of our four friars will use a bit of religious humor to begin his homily (usually related to the theme of the Scripture readings), but after that he will get to the meat of it, which is focused on the readings for the particular Sunday and Jesus’ words in Scripture. Same with our other friars, although one has used his homilies as a platform for his personal political beliefs (which I don’t think is very proper of him). So far as I have seen, the friars follow the rubrics and the proper care and reverence is shown for the Blessed Sacrament by both Ordinary Ministers and Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion; usually any irreverence is on the part of the laity in the congregation, though I would think it’s due to lack of instruction on how to appropriately receive Holy Communion. I have received on the tongue and in the hand (though mostly in the hand, but have received on the tongue when I have preferred it). Whatever method I have chosen to receive Him, I have done it with utmost reverence because I know Jesus is truly present, and I wouldn’t want to offend Him by doing anything other than consuming Him, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity.

The music is a blending of traditional hymns and hymns that are more recent compositions, and of course we do use Latin occasionally (especially during Holy Thursday, when we sing St. Thomas Aquinas’ “Tantum Ergo”, which is a beautiful hymn; “Parce Domine” is one that we used this year for Ash Wednesday, as well as during Lent). I believe that, since we acquired a new music director at the parish about six years ago, the music has come to mean more to me than just words and notes, harmonies and descants. It’s about entering into the worship of God and the mystery of the Sacrifice of the Mass. Heck, while we were singing the (English) verses of “Tantum Ergo” during the procession of the Blessed Sacrament through the church, I felt impelled to genuflect as the pastor slowly made his way past the choir corral, holding the ciborium beneath the cloth around his shoulders. It was a very emotional moment for me, since the Lord in the Blessed Sacrament had passed so near me.

One very good way of fostering devotion in our parish has been through First Friday Adoration (formerly overnight Adoration, which started immediately following the Saturday vigil Mass until just before the first Mass celebrated Sunday morning). I’ve tried my best to go each time, though sometimes I’m not always able to focus and pray. Very recently, a new element that has been brought to our Eucharistic Adoration is music; our parish music director has done a half-hour of music for an Audience of One, and both times it’s moved me to tears. It’s like having a little taste of the Banquet of Heaven for thirty minutes. Though the parish has seen changes in the position of the pastor and some of the music (we haven’t done any rock or secular music, though, it’s all been strictly liturgical), I believe that my parish has remained reverent and has effectively fostered my Catholic faith.

I’ve never been to what some people deem an “irreverent” Mass, at least not to my knowledge or that of other parishioners, although I have very limited knowledge right now of just what would constitute such a Mass. However, I don’t believe that I’m a person endowed with the authority or knowledge to deem a Mass irreverent or not. That, I believe, is best left to those with the authority and knowledge to judge correctly. I’m just a lay Catholic who, though a miserable sinner, is trying to walk more closely with her Lord and submit herself to the teachings of Holy Mother Church as taught by Pope Benedict XVI.

With all due respect to secular priests and priest who belong to religious congregations, I believe that the spirituality of friars and monks very often helps preserve the reverence of the liturgy in any language and in any form. I

I too live in a parish run by friars. Three are priests and four have other states. I have seen and heard many parishes and even people here on CAF who belong to parishes run by friars or by monks claim the same thing that you have said. There is great reverence in their liturgy, even with some modern liturgical music thrown in there and without the Gregorian chant.

I’m not putting down Gregorian chant. It’s very beautiful. Friars generally have been guided away from it by the mendicant founders, because it was associated with monasticism and friars did not want to live a monastic life. Later it become very popular all over the Church, but that’s another thread on Church and liturgical history.

Sometimes, when you have a mendicant or monastic community running a parish, their mysticism pours out into the parish through the liturgy and in other forms.

Again, this is not a put-down of those religious who belong to congregations instead of orders or secular priests. Many have been great mystics too.

I wonder if there is a correlation between liturgical reverence and mendicant and monastic orders. It would be an interesting study.

JR

 

[PatrickJT914]

Hi una fides,
Its true I’m a little skeptical. But isn’t healthy skepticism good and beneficial? How else do we learn and grow? You have certainly given me a lot to think about. Right now, I’ll give you a brief opinion. The videos references 1 & 5, You’ll get no disagreement from me. What I saw was totally disrespectful, very close to heretical(if not already), distasteful, unbelieveable, shocking, horrified and a few adjectives. The other numbers 2,3,4 I have many comments, but at this time, I don’t have time to address them. I will try to get back to this post as soon as I can. Hopefully, till next time.

 

[ProVobis]

Not to butt in, but in defense of Saint_Gemma and of the Catholic faith, I’d have to say that no one does not need to accept any “craziness, anomalies, and creativities” in the NO.

Let’s see what you guys are saying now.

You reject the clown Mass.

The clown Mass is Novus Ordo.

Therefore you reject the Novus Ordo.

And you’re saying what against the SSPX?

 

[JReducation]

Let’s see what you guys are saying now.

You reject the clown Mass.

The clown Mass is Novus Ordo.

Therefore you reject the Novus Ordo.

And you’re saying what against the SSPX?

That syllogism doesn’t follow Aristotalean logic.

P1 : You reject the clown mass - True
P2 : The Clown mass is Novus Ordo - False
C1 : Therefore you reject Novus Ordo - False

You cannot get a true conclusion when one premise is false.

The clown mass is not Novus Ordo, because it is not prescribed by the Novus Ordo. The clown mass was the mass was an abuse of the Novus Ordo.

The conclusion is not only false, but the syllogism is invalid.

To have a valid syllogism you must have two false = a false conclusion or two true = a true conclusion.

Those are the rules for Aristotalean Logic.

JR

 

[ProVobis]

The Clown mass is Novus Ordo - False

You mean those guys came out for nothing?

More importantly, where did their collection box money go?

 

[una_fides]

More importantly, where did their collection box money go?

Who knows; maybe they kept the money. certainly one abuse could easily facilitate another. perhaps they used it to buy more Novus Ordo clown outfits from the local bishop who obviously gets them from the vatican since this mass is an official NO mass. Just wait for the next GERM update. I’m sure it’ll have clown costumes in the list of approved vestments.

 

[JReducation]

Now you guys are stooping not only to fallacy, but also to openly accusing the Church of sanctioning such abussive behaviour at mass. That’s a very serious accusation, especially when the Church has already officially recognized the Novus Ordo as the Ordinary Form of the Roman mass and has said that in and of itself its SANCTITY cannot be denied. It prohibits any Catholic from doing so.

You’re either Catholic or you’re not. You can prefer EF over OF, but you cannot be Catholic and accuse the Church of considering such abussive behaviour as part of that which the Church recognizes as holy.

That’s wrong.

JR

 

[una_fides]

Now you guys are stooping not only to fallacy, but also to openly accusing the Church of sanctioning such abussive behaviour at mass. That’s a very serious accusation, especially when the Church has already officially recognized the Novus Ordo as the Ordinary Form of the Roman mass and has said that in and of itself its SANCTITY cannot be denied. It prohibits any Catholic from doing so.

You’re either Catholic or you’re not. You can prefer EF over OF, but you cannot be Catholic and accuse the Church of considering such abussive behaviour as part of that which the Church recognizes as holy.

That’s wrong.

JR

I was being ridiculously sarcastic in my last post incase that wasn’t apparent.

 

[JReducation]

I was being ridiculously sarcastic in my last post incase that wasn’t apparent.

Thanks for the clarification. I thought you had lost your mind. Sorry.

JR

 

[una_fides]

Thanks for the clarification. I thought you had lost your mind. Sorry.

JR

lol

 

[DonaNobis_Pacem]

Thank you for the insight, JR. I think that secular priests and religious congregations have reverent Masses as well, as I used to see this first-hand on campus at the university I attended for four years. The university has secular priests, but they were some of the best I ever saw; one in particular says a very reverent Pauline Mass versus populo, in English and according to the current rubrics, and it showed in how he would read the prayers in the Sacramentary (not rushing at all, but entering deep into the prayers). I was glad to get to know him in four years of university study, and a lot of students said that he was a great friend of young people. He would often stand outside one of the buildings and greet students as they walked by in between classes or if they were going to their car in the parking lot.

There was another thread created here about a Solemn High Tridentine Mass that was celebrated at the school I attended, in the chapel of one of the residence halls. While I don’t doubt that the Latin Mass is a very reverent one, and is absolutely a valid form of the Latin Rite, I would not say it’s necessarily for me. I am still fed with the Word of God and with the Presence of Jesus in the Blessed Eucharist at Mass in the parish to which I belong.

I think that perhaps your correlation between friars and monks, and their particular spirituality coming into play when they celebrate the Mass, could be correct. I agree, Gregorian Chant is lovely to hear (ever listened to the Benedictine monks? They’ve put out whole albums of Gregorian Chant, it’s awesome ), but I understand what you’ve mentioned about St. Francis moving the friars away from chant, as the Franciscans are a mendicant order rather than a monastic one. In my parish, our Masses can have traditional hymns as well as modern liturgical music sung, and yet they’ll still be reverent and prayerful. Even the congregation is hushed at the consecration and when the priest communicates following the “Lord, I am not worthy…”

I don’t mean to sound like I’m tooting my own horn, but parishes like mine are examples of where reverent Pauline Masses can be found; while abuses do exist and can happen anywhere, one can’t make a blanket statement and say that all Pauline Masses are irreverent/invalid/illicit. Lord have mercy on poor me if that was the case.

 

[Tsuwano]

It depends on what you mean by irreverent and by participate. The post Vatican II mass is no more irreverent than the pre Vatican II mass. The use of guitars or any other musical instrument during the liturgy doesn’t make the mass irreverent any more than the use of an organ in the old liturgy did. A mass is made irreverent by the intention of those who participate in it. If, by participating in a mass, you intend to poke fun at the ritual or at the beliefs of the people who are gathered there in worship, then you are irreverent, not the mass.

 

[JuanCarlos]

It depends on what you mean by irreverent and by participate. The post Vatican II mass is no more irreverent than the pre Vatican II mass. The use of guitars or any other musical instrument during the liturgy doesn’t make the mass irreverent any more than the use of an organ in the old liturgy did. A mass is made irreverent by the intention of those who participate in it. If, by participating in a mass, you intend to poke fun at the ritual or at the beliefs of the people who are gathered there in worship, then you are irreverent, not the mass.

Cardinal Arinze has expressly condemned the use of musical instruments that are more noted for their secular function- so guitars are definitely out.

He has also condemned liturgical dancing and putting the Most Sacred Blood into glass wine glasses, but I have seen both of these in masses with Bishops. Putting the Blood of Our Lord in an ordinary wineglass is doing what the Roman soldiers did to Christ before His death.

 

[Tsuwano]

Cardinal Arinze has expressly condemned the use of musical instruments that are more noted for their secular function- so guitars are definitely out.

He has also condemned liturgical dancing and putting the Most Sacred Blood into glass wine glasses, but I have seen both of these in masses with Bishops. Putting the Blood of Our Lord in an ordinary wineglass is doing what the Roman soldiers did to Christ before His death.

You’re not quite correct on this. What Cardinal Arinze said was “The Church is not saying that everything should be Gregorian music. There is room for music which respects that language, that culture, that people. There is room for that too, and the present books say that is a matter for the bishop’s conference, because it generally goes beyond the boundaries of one diocese. The ideal thing is that bishops would have a liturgical music commission which looks at the wording and the music of hymns, and when the commission is satisfied, judgement is brought to the bishops for approval, in the name of the rest of the conference. What should not be the case is individuals composing anything and singing it in church. This is not right at all . . . no matter how talented the individual is. That brings us to the question of the instruments to be used. I will not now pronounce and say never guitar; that would be rather severe. But much guitar music may not be suitable at all for the Mass. Yet, it is possible to think of some guitar music that would be suitable, not as the ordinary one we get every time, but with the visit of a special group, etc. The judgement would be left to the bishops of the area. It is wiser that way, also, because there are other instruments in many countries which are not used in Italy or in Ireland, for instance.”
The Church has long recognized the pipe organ as the ordinary means of instrumentality at the liturgy because it lends itself to congregational singing and is easily heard throughout a large space, but it does not limit useful musical instruments to the organ only. In different situations and on different occassions other instruments, as Cardinal Arinze has said, may be used with the concordance of the bishop or bishops of that area. Naturally, any instrument, including the pipe organ, should lend itself to the sacred nature of the liturgy and enhance the worship of the congregation, but to say that guitars are condemned for use at Mass is not true.

 

[ProVobis]

Now you guys are stooping not only to fallacy, but also to openly accusing the Church of sanctioning such abussive behaviour at mass.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck…

It’s either Pope Paul’s Mass or it’s some other kind of Mass.

If it’s Pope Paul’s Mass, then you have to accept it as much as the SSPX has to.

If it isn’t Pope Paul’s Mass, then who promulgated it?

I’m not a theologian but if you’re calling the clown Mass invalid, I would say that would be a serious charge.

And please don’t jump to the conclusion that I condone this kind of abuse either. I’m just trying to point out the inconsistency of some of those arguments directed against the trads.