Irreverent Mass

[NeedImprovement]

The applause at Mass is not an uncommon phenomenon unfortunately una fides. It’s an indicator of where people are at (or aren’t) spiritually. It isn’t only because of the musicians. Many people today believe they have this need to be entertained wherever they go. There are so many distractions from prayer today what with tv and video stores and internet (thank God for CA where at least we can actually discuss this precious Faith of ours), that it does affect the mentality of a considerable percentage of the faithful.

Being moderate and flexible as JReducation says, implies to me personally that I need to show those members of the flock a little charity. It’s a bit easier to do when we realize they aren’t where we are spiritually speaking during the Holy Sacrifice…some of them still have to be (as a priest friend of mine said) “spoon fed” their faith.

I’ll share one with you that irks me: At St. Joseph’s Oratory here in Montreal - the largest Shrine to St. Joseph in the world, for several years I’d noticed during the celebration of the Mass that when a particular organist plays (all good litugical stuff- sometimes too loud though) he would continue to play during the consecration and its elevation; at a little less volume, but some type of intricate melody. This **** melody always throws me off. It happens when there is supposed to be silence and when I’m trying to formulate my most intimate prayers/supplications to God before me in His infinite humility in the Blessed Sacrament. The point is, a deacon friend of mine told me that there is not supposed to be music at this point in the celebration. It is liturgically incorrect.

Various requests had been made repeatedly (through the proper channels) for the organist not to play at that point in the Mass but he just continued doing it anyway. If I could have just one question answered concerning that subject, it would be : What would St. Joseph have to say about this ?

 

[una_fides]

Sometimes certain things do draw forth spontaneous applause. We have to be moderate and flexible in all things, except sin.

JR

The applause after the priest had told them not to was anything but “spontaneous”; it was pure rebellion plain and simple.

Have you ever seen a pope spontaneously applaud at Mass?

Applause demonstrates the entertainment nature of the music. This fact is undeniable. You applaud at a concert when the musicians finish performing. You applaud at an opera, you applaud at a play, you applaud at a musical. Applause = response to entertainment. Period.

Any stories of saints applauding after the consecration of Mass that you’d like to share?

Remember we are present at the foot of calvary. Our response should be awe, reverence, and adoration; not a spirit of “oh i really enjoyed that whole performance” “encore!”

 

[una_fides]

The applause at Mass is not an uncommon phenomenon unfortunately una fides. It’s an indicator of where people are at (or aren’t) spiritually. It isn’t only because of the musicians. Many people today believe they have this need to be entertained wherever they go. There are so many distractions from prayer today what with tv and video stores and internet (thank God for CA where at least we can actually discuss this precious Faith of ours), that it does affect the mentality of a considerable percentage of the faithful.

Being moderate and flexible as JReducation says, implies to me personally that I need to show those members of the flock a little charity. It’s a bit easier to do when we realize they aren’t where we are spiritually speaking during the Holy Sacrifice…some of them still have to be (as a priest friend of mine said) “spoon fed” their faith.

I’ll share one with you that irks me: At St. Joseph’s Oratory here in Montreal - the largest Shrine to St. Joseph in the world, for several years I’d noticed during the celebration of the Mass that when a particular organist plays (all good litugical stuff- sometimes too loud though) he would continue to play during the consecration and its elevation; at a little less volume, but some type of intricate melody. This **** melody always throws me off. It happens when there is supposed to be silence and when I’m trying to formulate my most intimate prayers/supplications to God before me in His infinite humility in the Blessed Sacrament. The point is, a deacon friend of mine told me that there is not supposed to be music at this point in the celebration. It is liturgically incorrect.

Various requests had been made repeatedly (through the proper channels) for the organist not to play at that point in the Mass but he just continued doing it anyway. If I could have just one question answered concerning that subject, it would be : What would St. Joseph have to say about this ?

I see your point regarding treating others with charity, and had I been directly speaking to one of those who were clapping, I would take a different approach. Nevertheless, in my previous post, I, like you, was instead explaining irksome practices that I believe stem from entertainment-type music. Obviously if less up beat and entertainment oriented music was used, the people would not have had the prompting to clap. The music should be sober and should still us. The case becomes even greater when those who need to be fed milk as babes in Christ come into the picture. It would be of much more benefit to them if they were not exposed to music that brings about such entertainment-mindedness and rather stills their souls and enables them to better focus on what is being said and done. It would be better to have no music at all, than to have music that distracts in any way from Christ, as from your story with the organist, I’m sure you would agree.

 

[JReducation]

The applause after the priest had told them not to was anything but “spontaneous”; it was pure rebellion plain and simple.

**Have you ever seen a pope spontaneously applaud at Mass? **

Applause demonstrates the entertainment nature of the music. This fact is undeniable. You applaud at a concert when the musicians finish performing. You applaud at an opera, you applaud at a play, you applaud at a musical. Applause = response to entertainment. Period.

**Any stories of saints applauding after the consecration of Mass that you’d like to share? **

Remember we are present at the foot of calvary. Our response should be awe, reverence, and adoration; not a spirit of “oh i really enjoyed that whole performance” “encore!”

The bold marks are mine.

Pope Benedict XVI applauded at mass when he celebrated for the religious orders and the clergy in NY.

St. Pascal Baylon would not only applaud at the consecration, but would also begint to levitate.

JR

 

[una_fides]

The bold marks are mine.

Pope Benedict XVI applauded at mass when he celebrated for the religious orders and the clergy in NY.

St. Pascal Baylon would not only applaud at the consecration, but would also begint to levitate.

JR

Not that I doubt you, but do you have any citations for these claims?

 

[JReducation]

Not that I doubt you, but do you have any citations for these claims?

Pope Benedict was seen on national TV and so was Pope John Paul II seen applauding at mass, especially at World Youth Day the youngster would applaud him and he would applaud in return. Pope Benedict has done it also for youth.

And St. Pascal Baylon is written in his biography. Check him out under Capuchin Saints.

He had such great love for the Eucharist, that he would go into rapture in the presence of the Eucharist and seemed completely disconnected from everything, he was known to applaud, levitate, laugh, smile, cry, stare into empty space and several other things that his confreres thought were strange.

Fortunately for him, his Minister General thought that he was a saint. Even though he was a lay friar, the Minister General granted him license to preach.

He would preach the most dynamic and inspiring sermons on the Eucharist. Like Our Holy Father Francis, he would preach with great joy, almost a childlike look on his face.

If there is one thing that you will find among the Francisan mystics is a very joyful love for the Eucharist.

Francis danced in front of the tabernacle and taught his brothers to do the same. He also wrote songs and played a mandarin for the Blessed Sacrament. This has been a tradition of the Friars Minor Capuchin since 1209. The Church never supressed it. They were granted a Bull by Pope Honorius to persevere in their Eucharistic life and the rest of the gospel life as Francis wrote it.

JR

 

[NeedImprovement]

Now here’s a question that begs to be asked and could go either way:

I wonder what would happen if a presider were to levitate today during the Mass ? Would the drama serve to refocus the unfocused or would today’s faithful see it as a form of entertainment?

During his years of ministry at St. Joseph’s Oratory, it is recounted in the biography of Blessed Brother André Bessette (passed away in 1937 I believe) that almost every day when ailing people went to see him there was a miracle…e x c e p t… when curious onlookers were present.

(There’s that entertainment factor again)

 

[una_fides]

Pope Benedict was seen on national TV and so was Pope John Paul II seen applauding at mass, especially at World Youth Day the youngster would applaud him and he would applaud in return. Pope Benedict has done it also for youth.

And St. Pascal Baylon is written in his biography. Check him out under Capuchin Saints.

He had such great love for the Eucharist, that he would go into rapture in the presence of the Eucharist and seemed completely disconnected from everything, he was known to applaud, levitate, laugh, smile, cry, stare into empty space and several other things that his confreres thought were strange.

Fortunately for him, his Minister General thought that he was a saint. Even though he was a lay friar, the Minister General granted him license to preach.

He would preach the most dynamic and inspiring sermons on the Eucharist. Like Our Holy Father Francis, he would preach with great joy, almost a childlike look on his face.

If there is one thing that you will find among the Francisan mystics is a very joyful love for the Eucharist.

Francis danced in front of the tabernacle and taught his brothers to do the same. He also wrote songs and played a mandarin for the Blessed Sacrament. This has been a tradition of the Friars Minor Capuchin since 1209. The Church never supressed it. They were granted a Bull by Pope Honorius to persevere in their Eucharistic life and the rest of the gospel life as Francis wrote it.

JR

Thanks for the info. Do you have any websites that you could point me to that cite any of these occurrences? if not, do you have any publications? were these things that you have heard or things you have read from legitimate sources? again, would like citations if possible.

 

[una_fides]

Now here’s a question that begs to be asked and could go either way:

I wonder what would happen if a presider were to levitate today during the Mass ? Would the drama serve to refocus the unfocused or would today’s faithful see it as a form of entertainment?

During his years of ministry at St. Joseph’s Oratory, it is recounted in the biography of Blessed Brother André Bessette (passed away in 1937 I believe) that almost every day when ailing people went to see him there was a miracle…e x c e p t… when curious onlookers were present.

(There’s that entertainment factor again)

Just curious as to your intentions. Are you promoting that music and other things should take place at Mass for the purpose of entertainment? I can see the point that the Mass and the Holy Eucharist fulfills needs in one’s soul and to that extent is fulfilling and beneficial. However, we should not introduce practices at Mass that take away from and do not point to the Eucharistic Sacrifice that is taking place. Entertaining music often distracts from the sacrificial reality and modernist music often takes away from the reverence expected of us in the presence of the Most Holy God. When we read the Old Testament, we see how the priests approached the tabernacle of the Holy of Holies and how serious God took his Real Presence.

To handle a potential objection that some try to cite, yes king david did dance “before the Lord” in the sense he was doing it unto God as some form of worship. He did so in a fit of ecstasy as he thew off his clothes and danced naked in the streets. First, David was not at Mass, and He was not in the substantial presence of God, the Real Presence, the same as in the tabernacle of the Holy of Holies in the Old Testament. Second, promoting liturgical dance and citing this instance would be equally supporting liturgical nudity.

 

[NeedImprovement]

Just curious as to your intentions. Are you promoting that music and other things should take place at Mass for the purpose of entertainment? I can see the point that the Mass and the Holy Eucharist fulfills needs in one’s soul and to that extent is fulfilling and beneficial. However, we should not introduce practices at Mass that take away from and do not point to the Eucharistic Sacrifice that is taking place. Entertaining music often distracts from the sacrificial reality and modernist music often takes away from the reverence expected of us in the presence of the Most Holy God. When we read the Old Testament, we see how the priests approached the tabernacle of the Holy of Holies and how serious God took his Real Presence.

To handle a potential objection that some try to cite, yes king david did dance “before the Lord” in the sense he was doing it unto God as some form of worship. He did so in a fit of ecstasy as he thew off his clothes and danced naked in the streets. First, David was not at Mass, and He was not in the substantial presence of God, the Real Presence, the same as in the tabernacle of the Holy of Holies in the Old Testament. Second, promoting liturgical dance and citing this instance would be equally supporting liturgical nudity.

Sorry una fides - sometimes what I present to be read between the lines isn’t so readable between the lines. Bear in mind you’re asking for my personal opinion here - so, nothing official.First lets put children’s and youth Masses to the side in a category by themselves.

If anyone is going to Mass for the purposes of being entertained, they’re going for the wrong reason. It doesn’t only happen in Catholic circles…if people like a certain preacher, they go to hear him.

I discovered at Mass that even if I’m not so attuned to certain person’s homilies, still if I ask the Holy Spirit to speak to me through His priest and to open my ears, there will be something in that homily for me.

Silence is so important whether one is praying on one’s own or people are praying together.

In the Eucharistic Prayer, the most important words after the words of consecration are the words “…we offer…” , so during the offertory, I’m asking my guardian Angel and the Blessed Mother to place on the paten all my weaknesses which need healing, the names of all the people held in my heart, all the things I should be thankful for (even if I’m not aware of them),the holy souls in Purgatory - especially the ones who have no one to pray for them, and so on. Then at the consecration it is Jesus Himself who takes these intentions, covers them with his Precious Blood and offers them to the Father with me, together with all the merits of his Holy Sacrifice on Calvary.

If someone - anyone, is doing things to distract me at that point I’m not very appreciative (but luckily I usually feel hurt rather than angry).

Padre Pio was once asked (I believe I heard this on a Fr. Andrew Apostoli tape) what mentality, what frame of mind we should have when we go to attend Holy Mass and he replied, “The same as if you were going to Calvary.”

I’m personally no fan of liturgical dance at the Mass. However, I did see it appear to have a beneficial effect on some patients at a World Day for the Sick Mass presided over by the auxilliary Bishop (about 8 years ago). But for my personal tastes, the dancers’ costumes (or lack of) seemed a little (ahem) questionable for their suitability at Mass and I was left with the distinct impression that the dance likely drew as much if not more of the patients’ attention than the actual sacrificial elements of the Mass did…not my cup of tea.

We do need to admit that Bishop Fulton Sheen was in a class by himself. He was one who could teach and impress simultaneously, yet the more he impressed, the more he taught us. Our Lord used him, as the Catholic voice of America for so many years. In this specific case, I would say that his sense of humor was an indispensable tool that kept our attention riveted on the subject. Just the same, I think it’s safe to say that when he celebrated the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, none of the aforementioned talents were ever utilized outside the boundaries of the homily.

 

[ethelzguy]

Everything draws attention at Mass, if you want to get right down to it. The family that brings up the offetory gifts attracts attention. The altar servers attract attention. A beautiful solo attracts attention.

We can take this “attracting attention” thing a little too far.

 

[Jeanette_L]

Everything draws attention at Mass, if you want to get right down to it. The family that brings up the offetory gifts attracts attention. The altar servers attract attention. A beautiful solo attracts attention.

We can take this “attracting attention” thing a little too far.

Sometimes it seems as though people are actually looking for things to be offended at or distracted by, instead of having a frame of mind going to Mass that nothing matters at that moment but the Holy Sacrifice.

We need to be guardians over our own hearts and minds, bringing them properly into the worship irregardless of what is going on around us.

 

[una_fides]

Everything draws attention at Mass, if you want to get right down to it. The family that brings up the offetory gifts attracts attention. The altar servers attract attention. A beautiful solo attracts attention.

We can take this “attracting attention” thing a little too far.

You are right that some could take that question too far. If one wishes to forbid anything that draws attention, then as you pointed out, we would basically not have too much left at Mass.

The key point of the question then is to what are these attractions drawing attention. In the case of the family that brings up the gifts, they could easily attract attention by their simultaneous genuflection towards the altar. To what is their devotion drawing attention? The alar of Christ. And in the case of the altar servers, what is it that they are serving? The alar.
You see, all these things are intended to direct attention towards Christ.
Now if one of the members of the family bringing up the gifts is indecently dressed (or even worse, an extraordinary minister!), then the distraction is pointing to itself and is not directing our attention to Christ (except to the extent that we might be praying for that person ).
Now we apply this same understanding to liturgical music. When music is entertainment oriented, it tends to draw attention to itself and therefore away from Christ. True, the words themselves–when good and clear words or used and when words are used at all–can direct our attention to Christ. However, the entertainment-style music also conflicts in such instances as it draws attention to the performers and to the music itself.
Hope that helps clarify the point a bit. If I had more time, I could think up some more analogies, but now I’m off to work…

 

[NeedImprovement]

Everything draws attention at Mass, if you want to get right down to it. The family that brings up the offetory gifts attracts attention. The altar servers attract attention. A beautiful solo attracts attention.

We can take this “attracting attention” thing a little too far.

I agree wholeheartedly. If that is meant in reference at all to my most recent post, please consider that I was asked to give my personal opinion, and in doing so I tried to be as candid as possible by first describing how I pray…if one has to describe how one is distracted I believe one should first try to establish what one is being distracted from. Up until now I haven’t heard too many people describe how they actually “pray” in this thread or in plenty of other CAF threads. Maybe some of us could stop being (as one member so wisely put it to me) “critics”, and try adding some personal (name removed by moderator)ut on prayer. All of us could stand to learn a little more in this area…why not from fellow members?

On occasion I’m able to make it to Mass at a parish where a friend of mine presides, and there during the week, the little children come with several mothers. They can get a little out of control…noisy ,running around and what, but then one of them in front of me might run up to his mother and just start clinging to her and I can’t help but think :" Lord…(or sometimes Blessed Mother…) if only I could love you like that."

As far as musical instruments go, there isn’t really any such thing as an evil or forbidden instrument. Mind you, if someone takes an electric guitar, plugs it into a distortion pedal or heavy metal effect, turns up the overdrive on the amplifier, cranks the volume then gets ready to “enhance someone’s prayerfulness” at Mass, their chances of succeeding are about as good as a screen door’s chances are of keeping all the sailors dry in a submerged submarine.

A musical instrument doesn’t make any sound by itself. Actually it is an extension of the musician…so ultimately the musician is responsible for controlling it. As one who played a lot of guitar , I could also add that the guitar is an instrument that seems to be more prone to improper liturgical use than some other musical instruments.

 

[holdencaulfield]

I would say that it is a Venial Sin, unless it is the only Mass option open to you. However of course participating in a Valid and Licit Eucharist would wipe this sin from you. And it being a Venial Sin would not inhibit you from receiving the Eucharist. So therefore, it’s not a very practical question.

 

[JuanCarlos]

Amen.

I attended a “folk mass” in which the musicians were obviously drawing some attention to themselves by playing some Italian sounding music. I doubt it was even sacred music at all. After they finished playing, after the people had just received the Holy Eucharist, most of the people erupted in applause. The priest (not the pastor but a more traditional priest, who strongly holds to the Catholic faith) told the people to keep their applause to a minimum and explained that the purpose of Mass is to adore and worship our God and that He is to be the focus. He went on to explain that the purpose was not to be entertained or to draw any attention to ourselves or the music but only direct ourselves to God. He repeated then that they should keep their clapping to a minimum. After the closing song, the stubborn crowd again erupted in applause must louder than they had before!!!
thus, i think it is safe to conclude that these modern forms of music obviously draw people’s focus away from God and onto the music themselves. And why would stirring music be used at Mass when the purpose is for us to “be still and know that He is God.” It is music which stills and then uplifts our soul by which we can best experience and truly appreciate the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass without distractions.

I just had to comment on this- outrageous. No respect is shown to the ordained or Our Eucharistic Lord anymore.

 

[NeedImprovement]

I just had to comment on this- outrageous. No respect is shown to the ordained or Our Eucharistic Lord anymore.

The Holy Eucharist is the “source and summit of the life and mission of the Church.” LUMEN GENTIUM, 11]

Perhaps we could pause to consider a little food for thought contained in the ensuing two quotes from St. Peter Julian Eymard:

**“Happy is the soul that knows how to find Jesus in the Eucharist, and in the Eucharist all things.”

“Let us never forget that an age prospers or dwindles in proportion to its devotion to the Holy Eucharist. This is the measure of its spiritual life and its faith, of its charity and its virtue.”**

 

[ethelzguy]

A musical instrument doesn’t make any sound by itself. Actually it is an extension of the musician…so ultimately the musician is responsible for controlling it. As one who played a lot of guitar , I could also add that the guitar is an instrument that seems to be more prone to improper liturgical use than some other musical instruments.

I find it interesting that some feel that guitars are fine outside of Mass, but not IN…while at the same time, organs are considered “sacred” but are/were also used at sports areanas, movie theaters, etc.

Seems like a double-standard to me.

 

[Cat]

You are right that some could take that question too far. If one wishes to forbid anything that draws attention, then as you pointed out, we would basically not have too much left at Mass.

The key point of the question then is to what are these attractions drawing attention. In the case of the family that brings up the gifts, they could easily attract attention by their simultaneous genuflection towards the altar. To what is their devotion drawing attention? The alar of Christ. And in the case of the altar servers, what is it that they are serving? The alar.
You see, all these things are intended to direct attention towards Christ.
Now if one of the members of the family bringing up the gifts is indecently dressed (or even worse, an extraordinary minister!), then the distraction is pointing to itself and is not directing our attention to Christ (except to the extent that we might be praying for that person ).
Now we apply this same understanding to liturgical music. **When music is entertainment oriented, it tends to draw attention to itself and therefore away from Christ. **True, the words themselves–when good and clear words or used and when words are used at all–can direct our attention to Christ. However, the entertainment-style music also conflicts in such instances as it draws attention to the performers and to the music itself.
Hope that helps clarify the point a bit. If I had more time, I could think up some more analogies, but now I’m off to work…

(boldface mine)

What exactly is “entertainment-oriented music?”

Someone like me, who was trained in classical music, sees the “classical” music, both sung and played, as “entertainment.” I am used to critiquing a choir, soloist, or instrumentalist who sings/plays classical in regards to technique, etc.

It is very hard for me to “worship” to this kind of music. It’s “concert hall” music, the stuff I pay $30.00 a ticket for (or more).

OTOH, the contemporary music and hymans are what I have grown up with in and out of church (I was born in 1957). To me, this kind of music is just “normal” worship music, communication to God in song, not any kind of “entertainment-oriented” music. Even if people “move” to it, that doesn’t seem like entertainment
to me at all.

It’s not all that simple. What is “entertainment” to one is “worship” to another. I think we should stop trying to pronounce judgment. The various church documents dealing with church music have made it clear that there are few “limits” on what is acceptable during Mass.

 

[Cara_Serrano]

I find it interesting that some feel that guitars are fine outside of Mass, but not IN…while at the same time, organs are considered “sacred” but are/were also used at sports areanas, movie theaters, etc.

Seems like a double-standard to me.

I don’ think it’s the instrument that people object to. It’s the sacredness of the music being played on those instruments.

No one would want to hear even the most beautiful organ playing sports arena music at Mass!