Irreverent Mass

[Cat]

While I don’t have time to reply to your whole post. I will say that yes there is a relativistic aspect to music to the extent of preferences and such. Nevertheless, just because something may be “permitted” doesn’t necessarily make it best suited for Mass, meaning music that is most free from distractions and best directs the soul to God. The Church has repeatedly said that gregorian chant is best suited for Mass and is best to be used. Why settle for less than the best?
Music with a beat does not settle the soul but it stirs it and disquiets it. My opinion is that rock music and other upbeat music can be great for fun and entertainment–but not for Mass.

And I appreciate your making it clear that this is your opinion. Thank you.

In my opinion, rock music can be used in Mass. I do not consider rock music “entertainment” any more so than classical music and Gregorian chant. It’s just another musical style.

What did Catholics do during that period a few years back when Gregorian chant became wildly popular in the U.S.? (We have some of those CDs.) Did the Church declare that Gregorian chant cannot be used in the Church because of its “secular appeal?” Of course not.

Does everyone remember when the Our Father became a bestselling pop piece back in the 1970s? It was played constantly on the radio. So was the Our Father not allowed in Mass back then because of its secular popularity?

ANY music can become popular or secularized at any time depending on how it is marketed and who performs it. ANY MUSIC! Popularity and secularism of the music is not a reliable guide as to what should be allowed in Mass.

Rock music can be and IS extremely reverent (we have a Life Teen Mass in our parish). The words to many rock pieces are straight out of Scripture, and the musical style of “rock” fits a lot of these powerful words. I would suggest–just my opinion–that many of the hymn melodies for these Scriptural texts are actually rather saccharine and simpering and even effeminate and sissy compared to the strong driving rock melodies that actually lift us up to heaven instead of making us feel like we’re standing in an elevator on the way to our colonoscopy. (Don’t get me wrong–I still like the sweet hymns, especially the Haugen hymns.)

As for music with a beat–I challenge ANYONE to claim that Baroque and classical music do not have a beat! Uh UH! My husband will not listen to classical music in the car specifically because of the hypnotic and (to him) extremely irritating beat of the music.

Bach is especially “beat-y.” I used to sit at the piano with a metronome and strive to give my Bach pieces a totally precise “beat.” My teacher used to describe it as a “pulse” or “heartbeat” that should be present throughout Bach music and indeed, almost all Baroque pieces.

There is no “sinfulness” to beat in music. All of life has a beat. If it is a sin to have a beat, then the only people who aren’t sinning are the ones who suffer from irregular heartbeats and breathing.

You see, it’s all opinion when it comes to music. And as I said, the Church documents leave a lot of room for choice of Mass music. It seems to me that much of this has been left up to the bishop and the priests, and if they are approving the music in our local parishes, we should sit back and stop complaining about it and find a parish with music that ministers to our souls. We’re all different, and while some find chant spooky (me), others find it sublime. We need to respect each other’s differences and rejoice that the Church has made accomodation for that.

 

[ethelzguy]

In the Baltimor Catechism, I think that it says something like this: **a willful distraction **at Mass is a sin.

That would be more like staring at the hottie in the sun dress in the pew in front of you…

 

[JReducation]

In the Baltimor Catechism, I think that it says something like this: a willful distraction at Mass is a sin.

The Baltimore Catechism was taking the teaching of St. Augustine on this issue. To put it in simpler language, if I am at mass I should be focussing on mass.

Of course, once in a while, we all suddenly remember that we have to pick up milk the way home. This is not willful distraction. This is just a spontaneous thought that crossed our mind.

Willful distraction would be sit at mass making a mental list of the groceries that you have to pick up at the supermarket. That is within your power to control.

Whatever is not in your power to control, is not a sin.

I’ll share an example from this morning. Our friars run three nursing homes. They have a trolley that brings the older folks to Church and takes them back. Some of the older folks are a little obsessive about the trolley leaving without them, probably part of their age. Normally mass is over at 12:15. Today, being that it was both Pentecost Sunday and Mother’s Day, mass went past 12:15. After communion there was a special blessing for the mothers.

Well, a group of the seniior citizens got up at 12:15 sharp and walked out the door. This created a distraction for everyone, including the priest who was praying the blessing over the mothers. He had to stop and begin again, because he lost his place.

However, he was very kind. He looked toward the door, smiled and began the blessing again. There was not willful distraction involved here. I wouldn’t even consider the departure of the senior citizens a willful distraction, as I understand that older people can be ver rigid and get anxious about things like transportation.

Do you see the difference?

JR

 

[Jeanette_L]

The Baltimore Catechism was taking the teaching of St. Augustine on this issue. To put it in simpler language, if I am at mass I should be focussing on mass.

Of course, once in a while, we all suddenly remember that we have to pick up milk the way home. This is not willful distraction. This is just a spontaneous thought that crossed our mind.

Willful distraction would be sit at mass making a mental list of the groceries that you have to pick up at the supermarket. That is within your power to control.

Whatever is not in your power to control, is not a sin.

I’ll share an example from this morning. Our friars run three nursing homes. They have a trolley that brings the older folks to Church and takes them back. Some of the older folks are a little obsessive about the trolley leaving without them, probably part of their age. Normally mass is over at 12:15. Today, being that it was both Pentecost Sunday and Mother’s Day, mass went past 12:15. After communion there was a special blessing for the mothers.

Well, a group of the seniior citizens got up at 12:15 sharp and walked out the door. This created a distraction for everyone, including the priest who was praying the blessing over the mothers. He had to stop and begin again, because he lost his place.

However, he was very kind. He looked toward the door, smiled and began the blessing again. There was not willful distraction involved here. I wouldn’t even consider the departure of the senior citizens a willful distraction, as I understand that older people can be ver rigid and get anxious about things like transportation.

Do you see the difference?

JR

Intentions are so integral in understanding just about every aspect of our faith. This is so easily dismissed or forgotten by so many.

I have problems at times remembering these things in my own life as well. Thanks for the gentle reminder.

 

[JReducation]

I have no idea where some of you go to mass, but I wonder if you’re using collective information from all over the place and applying it to every parish.

I go to mass in a parish that has altar girls, mass in English, communion in the hand and standing, extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist, a variety in our music, two priests who are physically challenged, another who is typical, and four lay brothers, one who is the superior of the community.

All that being said, we have seven masses every Sunday, with standing room only, a one hour waiting for confession every Saturday, Eucharistic adoration every Thursday for adults, and every Monday for teens, a Life Teen mass with 1000 kids who are very reverent, and a community of religious who are very much loved by the laity.

They are so loved by the laity that when the Superior said that his priests would not be celebrating the EF, only four people out of 3600 families complained about it. Their complaint was mixed in with a flavour of bigotry, because they demanded to know what right did a lay brother have over a priest. To which the lay brother responded, “I’m the successor of St. Francis and the community has voted on this and no one wants to do this.”

The rest of the laity loves this man and the pastor beneat him, who is the vicar superior of the house.

We also have more than 100 different ministries to people from ages 0 to 100, a school that is full, and this summer the religious community will have 17 religious brothers making perpetual solemn vows, one of them has been given permission to become a priest as well. Which will happen two years from now, because that’s the rule of the community. Four of those men making perpetual solemn vows are from our parish. They have chosen to live a consecrated life until death.

Does this sound like a parish in crisis?

JR

 

[Cara_Serrano]

I don’t think that organ music is a materially moral issue, not in any moral theology course that I ever took.

Bad singing should be. But unfortunately, the Church doesn’t agree with me.

JR

I agree! Add to that list of bad singers: Catholics in flip flops and ragged cut-offs chewing gum during Mass.

 

[Jeanette_L]

I agree! Add to that list of bad singers: Catholics in flip flops and ragged cut-offs chewing gum during Mass.

Christ and his disciples wore sandals, so the footwear I don’t see as a problem. This is a cultural issue. My goodness, there are people in this world who don’t even have shoes.

The chewing gum is just poor manners no matter where they are. Poor manners is more of a lack in one’s upbringing, not necessarily pointing to morally irreverent.

Does that make sense?

 

[Cara_Serrano]

Christ and his disciples wore sandals, so the footwear I don’t see as a problem. This is a cultural issue. My goodness, there are people in this world who don’t even have shoes.

The chewing gum is just poor manners no matter where they are. Poor manners is more of a lack in one’s upbringing, not necessarily pointing to morally irreverent.

Does that make sense?

Not quite. It is more than just “bad manners” to receive the Body of Christ" with a piece of gum in your mouth that you will eventually throw in the garbage with bits of the host stuck to it.

Also, as far as footwear, even in poor parts of Latin America where I have worked, people who don’t have shoes the rest of the week find or borrow a pair of sandals that don’t flop against the floor when they go to Mass. Certainly Americans with a closet full of shoes can find something else to wear.

I imagine that Christ and His Apostles were wearing their best pair of sandals, not their worst, when they went to the temple. So it’s not a matter of cultural differences; it’s a matter of giving the best of what you have (even your shoes) to God.

 

[JReducation]

Not quite. It is more than just “bad manners” to receive the Body of Christ" with a piece of gum in your mouth that you will eventually throw in the garbage with bits of the host stuck to it.

Also, as far as footwear, even in poor parts of Latin America where I have worked, people who don’t have shoes the rest of the week find or borrow a pair of sandals that don’t flop against the floor when they go to Mass. Certainly Americans with a closet full of shoes can find something else to wear.

I imagine that Christ and His Apostles were wearing their best pair of sandals, not their worst, when they went to the temple. So it’s not a matter of cultural differences; it’s a matter of giving the best of what you have (even your shoes) to God.

The problem here as far as the clothing is concerned is that Christian tradition will not bear you out, Cara.

If you look at people like Francis of Assisi who wore a robe made of sack cloth, no shoes and whose followers still wear jeans, washed out habits, flip flops for shoes, the flip flop idea falls short.

Mother Teresa who stopped wearing a sister’s habit, with shoes and stockings and traded it in for a sari with sandals and no stockings in an age when no woman, especially a sister, would be caught dead without shoes or stockings, doesn’t bear us out here either.

Dorothy Day who wored mended clothes and Catherine Doherty who wore hand-me-downs with flip flops and torn clothes to Church are both up for beatification. They were lay women and not poor by birth. They chose to live among the homeless and dress like them.

The Capuchin Franciscans had a tradition until a few years ago that forbade bathing more than once a week and habits could only be washed once a month. They only had two habits. You can imagine the smell.

The Brothers of the Poor only own one habit and it’s white. They can only wash it once a week. They wear shoes that they dig out of dumpsters or that people throw away. I met some of them who came to my parish. Their holiness was unquestionable, so was their body odor.

As to the gum, I agree with Jeanette. This is just bad manners. Ask teachers how often they have to tell students to get rid of the gum.

You need not worry about the Eucharist sticking to the gum. The rule is that Christ is physically present only as long as the bread and wine retain their essence. When the essence is no longer there, then it is no longer the Eucharist. It is still bad manners to chew gum in any formal gathering.

JR

 

[Cara_Serrano]

St Franci of Assisi, Mother Teresa, the Capuchins, etc. all took vows of poverty and gave God their best every day. Their dress identifies their order and its charism of poverty. The people I’m talking about are upper middle class Americans who have no such commitment. They have a whole closet full of clothes they wear to other public functions not nearly as important as the Mass.

 

[JReducation]

St Franci of Assisi, Mother Teresa, the Capuchins, etc. all took vows of poverty and gave God their best every day. Their dress identifies their order and its charism of poverty. The people I’m talking about are upper middle class Americans who have no such commitment. They have a whole closet full of clothes they wear to other public functions not nearly as important as the Mass.

I was speaking with one of the Brothers in our parish the other day during my spiritual direction. I presented him with this constant complaint that many on CAF have about the way that people dress for mass.

He said something that made so much sense to me. I can’t recall the exact words, but I’ll paraphrase it as best as I can, because we talked about so many things, especially CAF.

He was telling me a story of a young lady who came to her first communion wearing a very pretty white skirt and a rather short blouse. I forget what he called it. He’s younger than I am, so he knows all these fashions by name.

Anyway, he said that he thought to himself, “Why would you wear this top to your first communion?” Then he remembered St. Francis. He says that he could have spoken to the pastor about it and certainly could have pushed the issue with the pastor. He is the pastor’s superior.

But he said to himself, “St. Francis would not want you to chase people away from the Love of God. He would want you to draw them in as they are and slowly help them grow to love God as you love him and as he loves us.”

He remembered something that is in the rule of St. Francis, “always preach a good sermon, only if necessary use words.”

He said, “You know there is an appropriate way to dress for Church, school and play etc. But does our way of dress really reflect the soul? St. Francis would say ‘no’.”

Then Brother went on to say, “St. Francis would look into this young girls enthusiasm at being able to receive the Lord Jesus for the first time in her life. He would have shared that. His joy that this girl was going to receive the Lord for the first time would have been so great, that he would have quickly forgotten the short blouse.”

Finally Brother said, “What if in telling this young girl that her top was too short would be the last time that she came to the Eucharist? Then what would your conscience tell you? Is this what St. Francis ordered you to do for people?” So he decided to move on to something else that was more important, which was the liturgy itself, the presence of Christ and the communion of Saints.

I thought these were very insightful words and have a certain level of mysticism to them.

I just wanted to share them with you.

JR

 

[Jeanette_L]

I’m going to do something here that will probably get me slapped silly, but I’m going to talk about a book that changed my life, it was written by an Evangelical, Philip Yancey, the title was “What Is So Amazing About Grace?”

We show so little grace to people who desperately need it, and yet we expect so much of it from God for ourselves. And He freely gives it, all He asks of us in return is to do the same to everyone around us, even those whom we find offensive.

Grace, even for those with midriff blouses, flipflops and chewing gum. What a novel idea! Or is it? Christ showed us how; the woman at the well, the woman found in adultery, the tax collector in the tree, the woman with a blood disorder…the list goes on and on. Grace freely given to those who live on the outside of what we call appropriate.

 

[JReducation]

I’m going to do something here that will probably get me slapped silly, but I’m going to talk about a book that changed my life, it was written by an Evangelical, Philip Yancey, the title was “What Is So Amazing About Grace?”

We show so little grace to people who desperately need it, and yet we expect so much of it from God for ourselves. And He freely gives it, all He asks of us in return is to do the same to everyone around us, even those whom we find offensive.

Grace, even for those with midriff blouses, flipflops and chewing gum. What a novel idea! Or is it? Christ showed us how; the woman at the well, the woman found in adultery, the tax collector in the tree, the woman with a blood disorder…the list goes on and on. Grace freely given to those who live on the outside of what we call appropriate.

I’ve read Dr. Yancey’s works. They tie in with another famous evangelist who wrote

“Let me not so much seek to be understood, but to understand
to be loved, but to love
for it is in giving that we receive,
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned”

JR

 

[bobzills]

I agree! Add to that list of bad singers: Catholics in flip flops and ragged cut-offs chewing gum during Mass.

Actually, there is a cheap restaurant in our area that has a dress code which is more strict than what is seen in Catholic Churches.

 

[JReducation]

Actually, there is a cheap restaurant in our area that has a dress code which is more strict than what is seen in Catholic Churches.

Restaurants are not in the business of saving souls. They can be selective.

JR

 

[Cara_Serrano]

I was speaking with one of the Brothers in our parish the other day during my spiritual direction. I presented him with this constant complaint that many on CAF have about the way that people dress for mass.

He said something that made so much sense to me. I can’t recall the exact words, but I’ll paraphrase it as best as I can, because we talked about so many things, especially CAF.

He was telling me a story of a young lady who came to her first communion wearing a very pretty white skirt and a rather short blouse. I forget what he called it. He’s younger than I am, so he knows all these fashions by name.

Anyway, he said that he thought to himself, “Why would you wear this top to your first communion?” Then he remembered St. Francis. He says that he could have spoken to the pastor about it and certainly could have pushed the issue with the pastor. He is the pastor’s superior.

But he said to himself, “St. Francis would not want you to chase people away from the Love of God. He would want you to draw them in as they are and slowly help them grow to love God as you love him and as he loves us.”

He remembered something that is in the rule of St. Francis, “always preach a good sermon, only if necessary use words.”

He said, “You know there is an appropriate way to dress for Church, school and play etc. But does our way of dress really reflect the soul? St. Francis would say ‘no’.”

Then Brother went on to say, “St. Francis would look into this young girls enthusiasm at being able to receive the Lord Jesus for the first time in her life. He would have shared that. His joy that this girl was going to receive the Lord for the first time would have been so great, that he would have quickly forgotten the short blouse.”

Finally Brother said, “What if in telling this young girl that her top was too short would be the last time that she came to the Eucharist? Then what would your conscience tell you? Is this what St. Francis ordered you to do for people?” So he decided to move on to something else that was more important, which was the liturgy itself, the presence of Christ and the communion of Saints.

I thought these were very insightful words and have a certain level of mysticism to them.

I just wanted to share them with you.

JR

Thanks. Good point. For that very reason I have never told anyone how I feel about their clothes at Mass because I knew I could not be as charitable as St Francis or the Brother in your story!

 

[NeedImprovement]

Thanks. Good point. For that very reason I have never told anyone how I feel about their clothes at Mass because I knew I could not be as charitable as St Francis or the Brother in your story!

Being open and candid and willing to give one’s honest opinion like that is a wonderful quality. It’s what makes these threads !
Besides, if we all saw things exactly the same there wouldn’t be anything to discuss.

Fr. John Corapi had an interesting presentation about a true case of improper attire…I believe it was in a church in Florida, where a beautiful young woman came in basically wearing beach wear (and not the kind that protects you from sunburn). I have to paraphrase too but his plea went something like this: " Now please, you probably don’t mean any harm by it, but you actually might unwittingly be an occasion of sin for someone else."

I remember when I was younger going to Mass once and the priest gave a homily on being generous and not neglecting helping out the poor monetarily… I wasn’t dressed like a king or anything but it was decent clothing and it was clean. Anyhow, a well-meaning young woman at the end of the Mass came up to me and wanted to hand me $ 5.00. I asked why repeatedly and she kept replying, “Please, just take it.” That happened maybe 19 years ago and I still scratch my head about it. I think I was dressed as a poor person (maybe in her eyes at least).

Now, I worry most of all what I’m wearing on the inside when I go to Mass. For half of the time I attend Mass, I wear an alb because it’s more appropriate (…seems people are giving me less money now ).

 

[ethelzguy]

Restaurants are not in the business of saving souls. They can be selective.

JR

Ditto.

If we are paying attention to our own souls and our participation in the Mass, we won’t have time to worry about our neighbor’s clothing.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Actually, there is a cheap restaurant in our area that has a dress code which is more strict than what is seen in Catholic Churches.

I bet they also won’t let you in if you don’t have any money!

 

[ethelzguy]

I bet they also won’t let you in if you don’t have any money!

Good one But then again, neither will a lot of protestant churches.