N
NeedImprovement
Guest
You guys wonāt get any argument from me on that oneā¦like I saidā¦heyā¦I went to church and** they gave me money**.Good oneBut then again, neither will a lot of protestant churches.
- Status
J
JReducation
Guest
One of my kids is graduating from grad school this year. Can I go to your church? I could use some help.
I promise to dress down.JR
PS. What am I talking about. I donāt own anything to dress up.
N
NeedImprovement
Guest
Sureā¦! Get down here as soon as you canā¦oh, BTWā¦ youāre not allowed to leave until this parish has: āseven masses every Sunday, with standing room only, a one hour waiting for confession every Saturday, Eucharistic adoration every Thursday for adults, and every Monday for teens, a Life Teen mass with 1000 kids who are very reverentā (resembles something I heard about going on in a little place in Croatiaā¦apparently the Franciscans are in charge of the faithfulās spiritual needs there tooā¦go figure.)One of my kids is graduating from grad school this year. Can I go to your church? I could use some help.
JR
PS. What am I talking about. I donāt own anything to dress up.
J
JReducation
Guest
Our community has a way of bringing people around. I donāt think itās anything special that we do. I do think that what impresses people is that we are a real family. We have more than one million Franciscans: friars, nuns, sisters, religious brothers, secular brothers and sisters.
The cool thing is that the entire family looks at each member as vital to the spirit of St. Francis. Since St. Francis actually did found all three orders, the Friars Minor, the Poor Clare Nuns, and the Secular and Regular Franciscans, there is no doubt in anyoneās mind about how much he loved the three orders.
There is also no competition for status, such as the friars are superior to the secular brothers and sisters, because Francis made it very clear that such was not the case, that we were all brothers and sisters because we were all committed to living the Gospel in three different forms. The friars were to live it through poverty and community, the nuns were to live it through contemplation and poverty, and the secular and regular Franciscans were to live it through penance and poverty. Poverty is the common thread of the three orders.
When you visit one of our communities you usually see members of the three orders working together. In our parish we have Friars Minor Capuchin, Franciscan Sisters of the Poor, and Secular Franciscan Missionaries of Charity.
The friars are also awesome to watch in action, because despite what people want, they all go around in cognito. The other day someone called one of the friars, Father. The friar said, āIām Brother Dave.ā The person excused himself and said, āCan I speak to a priest?ā The friar said, āI am also a priest.ā The lady looked at him and said, āI thought you said youāre Brother Dave?ā He said, āBrother is my title. Priesthood is my ministry in the community. Let me explain . . .ā he put his arm around the lady and they walked off to the garden together.
These are those warm moments, filled with humility and simplicity that attracts people. Some people actually move from one city to another just to be in a Capuchin Franciscan parish once they discover the charism and its simplicity.
The beautiful thing is that they donāt care if the liturgy is OF or EF. They just want to taste Franciscan spirituality and community. We have several men from our parish making solemn vows as Capuchin Franciscan Friars this month. Every year we have at least one. This year I believe we have four. I heard somone say three. One of them has been given permissiion to ask for ordination. The others have not. But weāre proud of our guys. One of the ones who was denied permission to be ordained will be sent to the same univesity in Rome where John Paul II studied to get his Doctorate in Moral Theology and the other is going to the Louvain to get his Doctorate in Liturgy. Both will probably be assigned to teach or be superiors somewhere.
Itās a warm fuzzy feeling for us in our parish. We have good liturgies because we have a very patient and very supportive laity and because we have so many holy senior citizens who spend a great deal of their retirement time prayer for us. God bless them.
JR
A
anamchara
Guest
I
But he said to himself, "St. Francis would not want you to chase people away from the Love of God. He would want you to draw them in as they are and slowly help them grow to love God as you love him and as he loves us."
Then Brother went on to say, āSt. Francis would look into this young girls enthusiasm at being able to receive the Lord Jesus for the first time in her life. He would have shared that. His joy that this girl was going to receive the Lord for the first time would have been so great, that he would have quickly forgotten the short blouse.ā
JR
This is how I have always felt and you just wrote it better then I could have. Thank you.
N
NeedImprovement
Guest
Correct me if Iām wrong (@JReducation) but didnāt St. Francis receive the promise from Our Lord that his order would never die? And if so, perhaps you could give us the exact quote w/ a little context ?
J
JReducation
Guest
Yes, our Holy Father did have a vision in which he saw many brothers and sisters following him. Some were friars, others were nuns, some were sisters, some were seculars. Francis was confused at first, because he had never seen a consecrated secular man and woman or a sister. There were no such creatures in the Church at the time.
He sat quietly and listened. He heard the voice of Christ making the same promise to him that he had made to Abraham, about multiplying his offspring and that his order would exist and thrive untilt the second coming.
Later Francis did found an order for nuns, Clare and her sister were the first to join. Shortly afterward he founded an Order for consecrated secular men and women and for sisters. St. Louis King of France and St. Elizabeth of Hungary are itās patron saints. They were both Secular Franciscans and lived very poor and penitential lives. This order is called the Brothers and Sisters of Penance or simply, Secular Franciscans. They do make vows and follow a rule written by St. Francis.
Today we are more than 1 million in 48 different countries around the world.
If you want to read the entire story, you can Google The Little Flowers of St. Francis online. The entire book is very short and can be read in two sittings. It is written in the same form as Markās Gospel, just a series of loosely connected narratives that relate the wonders that God did through Francis and his family. Youāll see the promise in there.
There was also another promise that Christ made to him, that the order would be preserved from heresy. Though there have been some very snful Franciscans in all three orders, the three orders as a family have never been suppressed or charged with heresy.
Even now with the Motu Proprio, the Superiors of the three orders have decided that the EF would be left up to each community to decide and would be celebrated as long as all of the friars in the community at a given parish agree that it is good for the friars, the Holy See has accepted this plan of action.
When Honorius approved the final rule of the order he placed a papal bull on it. This meant that the friars were exempt from all rules and canons that did not apply to dogma, morals or were mandatory disciplines for the universal Church. Thus they became one of the four exempt religious orders in the Church. Only a pope can remove a papal bull.
For example, the Franciscan Motherhouse in Assisi is an autonomous friary and has been for 800 years. This means that the local bishop or the laity have no jurisdiction over what happens in the house or the Basilica of St. Francis. Only the Superior General, the Guardian of the House and the Pope have authority there.
Pope Benedict asked the friars to make some changes in their rules on pilgrimages to the Basilica, because he felt that non Christians were abusing the Basilica. He asked the Guardian to consult with the local bishop of Assisi when in doubt as to the reverence of a specific pilgrimage.
The Superior General responded to the Pope that he would be more than happy to dialogue with the Holy Father as to the specifics to make sure that he understood what the Holy Fatherās concerns are and then he would certainly keep the local bishop informed. The Holy Father agreed to meet with the Superior General. They did. The Holy Fatherās concerns were explained more clearly and the friars said that they felt comfortable with this, but Pope Benedict said that he would not remove the Bull of Honorius. He said that he would not interfere in the internal affairs of the Order and that it would retain its exempt status, but he wanted the Basilica protected.
So, everyone is happy and those who are not happy, have agreed to obey anyway. This is what St. Francis wants. You donāt have to be happy. You just have to obey. One of the points that they agreed on was the OF being the normal celebration of the Eucharist for the Order. And that each house that is attached to a parish is free to decide what is best for the friars. The main purpose of the order is to build the Churchās spiritual life by building the life of its members. As its members become holy, so does the Church, because the members are connected to the Church through Baptism and their vow to live the Gospel in the manner of St. Francis.
JR
U
una_fides
Guest
Thanks for sharing your opinion. I think in matters where we Catholics have different opinions concerning what we prefer at Mass in terms of music and in some cases what we find offensive that we fist see what the Church says, especially the Pope regarding what music is best suited for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Regarding what music should not be used, Pope Benedict has given his clear warning concerning rock music and has even said that this music is the work of Satan and that it is the āvehicle of anti-religion.ā The pope has also openly opposed guitars being used at Mass and has clearly condemned performance-style liturgies. entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article1485054.ece
āRockā [music]. . . is the expression of elemental passions, and at** rock festivals it assumes a cultic character, a form of worship, in fact, in opposition to Christian worship." ā¦ The music of the Holy Spiritās sober inebriation seems to have little chance when self has become a prison, the mind is a shackle, and breaking out from both appears as a true promise of redemption that can be tasted at least for a few moments.** ā¦
Dancing is not a form of expression for the Christian liturgy. In about the third century, there was an attempt in certain Gnostic-Docetic circles to introduce it into the liturgy. ā¦
We are realizing more and more clearly that silence is part of the liturgy" (Pope Benedict XVI, The Spirit of the Liturgy 2000). ceciliaschola.org/notes/benedictonmusic.html (I recommend reading this whole site.
I think we should differ to the vicar of Christ on this one.
First, we must realize that just because lyrics are good doesnāt make the musical style appropriate. These are two different things. I can only imagine someone arguing that Marlyn Manson and Slipknot-type screaming rock music should be used in Mass as long as they are dressed up with good Scriptural lyrics to accompany them. The question is not what some people may find personally enjoyable. Itās about what God desires and what music best suits both the liturgy and is most pleasing to God. Does God want us energized and jumping up and down and shouting at Mass? Perhaps starting a mosh pit to āpowerfulā music instead of āsissy musicā which quiets the soul?
Unfortunately, there arenāt any official Church documents that I am aware of that permit rock music at Mass. Iām sure there are liberal bishops and priests out there that use that music, but again, the question is whether these forms of music are officially sanctioned. Many times local parish priests will just incorporate whatever type of music they want and the liberal or non-controversial bishops will sit back and let it happen (turn a blind eye).
The most important question we should ask ourselves is not just what might be permitted. We should also not be asking what type of music we personally enjoy the most. We should ask what type of music is least offensive, promotes silence at Mass and a stilling of the soul as the Church has recommended, and what type of music is best suited to the holy Sacrifice of the Mass?
Here is straight from Vatican II: ā116. The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical servicesā (Sacrosanctum Concilium).
One last thing, almost every single saint we venerate today lived off of the Mass in Latin with sacred sobering music, which in most cases was chant. If such soul-quieting music is good enough for the holiest of men and women to have walked the earth, then it is good enough for me.
U
una_fides
Guest
I agree. It is those who are in most need of Godās mercy that we pray for especially in the fatima prayer. Should we approach such people with a judgmental attitude, it could very well scare them away from God and his grace, not to mention the fact that judging their intentions for dressing as such would be a sin on our parts.Grace, even for those with midriff blouses, flipflops and chewing gum. What a novel idea! Or is it? Christ showed us how; the woman at the well, the woman found in adultery, the tax collector in the tree, the woman with a blood disorderā¦the list goes on and on. Grace freely given to those who live on the outside of what we call appropriate.
Nevertheless, Christ told the woman caught in adultery to go and sin no more. We must remember that to admonish a sinner is a spiritual work of mercy.
While we cannot say that the individual is personally guilty of sin or indifference to religious matters, we can determine that an action in and of itself is sinful (regardless of whether the person understands it as such).
In the case of a woman who dresses immodestly, it could be difficult to approach her; however, we should permit women at Mass to be continually dressing as prostitutes and drawing mens attention to what would lead their souls to perdition.
How can such sensitive issues be addressed? Perhaps in the Church bulletin, the priest could include a section on modesty. The homily also can be a great time to address good modest dress of holy men and women, brothers and sisters in Christ. On an individual level, the admonishing of someone who is dressing provocatively at Mass can be performed by a friend of the one who is dressing in such a way. If he or she is actually serious about God, then they should listen to the person who is telling them how men and women are to dress in Church. The person who approaches the individual should have Scriptures and Church writings readily available for her so she can learn about what the Church teaches on this matter. There is a good chance she might be happy that someone pointed this out to her if she is sincerely trying to learn about God and be obedient to Him and His will. Otherwise, if the person has a rebellious attitude towards God and His Church and rejects them in favor of their own opinions, then receiving Holy Communion would actually do them more harm then good.
1 Cor 11:29-31 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily [meaning in a state of sin], eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord. Therefore are there many inform and weak among you, and many sleep. But if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
U
una_fides
Guest
Regarding our earlier discussion of applauding at Massā¦
Our Holy Father, the Vicar of Christ, Pope Benedict XVI:
āWherever applause breaks out in the liturgy because of some human achievement, it is a sure sign that the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainmentā (Spirit of the Liturgy 2000).
Our Holy Father, the Vicar of Christ, Pope Benedict XVI:
āWherever applause breaks out in the liturgy because of some human achievement, it is a sure sign that the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainmentā (Spirit of the Liturgy 2000).
J
Jimsdun
Guest
So, what constitutes an irreverent mass? As long as the liturgical rubrics are adhered to, and that is sometimes a judgment call. And what is irreverent for some may not be irreverent for others.
B
bobzills
Guest
ā¦
Dancing is not a form of expression for the Christian liturgy. .
This is not true at least according to the Masses celebrated in Los Angeles and elsewhere. There has been a lot of dancing at many different Masses on many different types of occasions.
youtube.com/watch?v=NSbiL3XduvY
C
Cat
Guest
This is the Holy Fatherās personal opinion. It is certainly meritorious because he is the Holy Father. I donāt blame you for adopting his personal opinions.
But he is not speaking any official church policy. His personal opinions are not binding on the Church.
If you use the argument that we should follow the example of the Pope just because he is the Pope, there are several Popes in history whoā¦well, I wouldnāt follow their example.
And the Pope lives in Europe. I would be curious to know if there is any such thing as āChristian rockā in Europe. I tend to think that rock music culture in Europe has a much more negative outcome than in the U.S.
In the U.S., we have seen āChristian rockā since the 1950s, when people like John Peterson and Ralph Carmichael began writing light rock pieces. Along came artists like Larry Norman (God rest his soul) and Randy Stonehill, who saidācorrectlyāāWhy should the devil have all the good music?ā
In essence, we have seen āChristian rockā in the U.S. for a long time now, and it is definitely not āthe devilās music.ā It has proven its worth. Our bishop, one of the most conservative in the U.S., used a light rock music as the background music for the video that was presented in parishes for the Annual Diocesan Appeal. He also uses a light rock/folk arrangment (instrumental) of āGather Us Inā as the theme music for his twice-weekly radio show, āCatholic Forumā in our city. AND he approves the Life Teen Mass, which uses rock music (done by the teens themselves).
I donāt think that Marilyn Mansonās style of rock would be appropriate for most Masses because it would not work in most church buildings. Too small a venue. It would be like putting a symphony orchestra in most churchesāit just wouldnāt work well.
Rock may not be your or my personal preference or the Popeās personal preference, but as you said, Mass music should not be based on personal preference.
Yes, chant should be given preference in Mass, but this statement does not say that chant is the only music that is appropriate for Mass. We canāt be reading stuff into the documents. Itās just not there.
(BTW, I dislike chant. But I would never dream of saying that it shouldnāt be used in Mass. Of course it should beāthe Church has said so.)
You mentioned that all the saints of the past lived with chant in Mass. Well, they also lived with Latin Mass, unheated churches with no bathrooms, and some even faced yearly Communion instead of daily Communion. I donāt really think this is necessary to becoming a saint, do you?
The practices that the Church requires have changed and will continue to change through the centuries. This is good. This is not liberalism, itās āmaturing.ā
Also, the saints lived in abject poverty, often with no food or money supply from day to day. Sorry, Iām not going there unless the Lord calls me to. This is 21st Century U.S., not medieval Europe. I will strive for detachment from material things, but abject povertyālike I said, I need the calling from the Lord for this one.
N
NeedImprovement
Guest
After viewing the above-quoted link:
**REASONS WHY I CANāT SAY,āTHE MUPPETS ARE CATHOLICā **
- There may not have been any Mass -there was no altar,paten, chalice, shown in the videoā¦hence no Blessed Sacrament - pretty well par for the course (although a note was attached saying āedited out was the consecration and what appeared to be a lay homily.ā)
- If that was a priest, he didnāt give the āfaithfulā the final blessingā¦he said,"ā¦and may we bless ourselves in the name of the Creator, the Redeemer, and the Sanctifier."
- The saddest thing - there were a couple of songs in there that would have probably been litugically viable ( darn you Miss Piggy, Kermit, and Fozzy Bear).
G
Godi
Guest
Hang in there. You are on track, donāt worry about the liberal comments here. Keep adoring & worshiping the Lord with reverence. Ignore the rest & as Christ said āLet the dead bury the Dead.ā
J
JReducation
Guest
I understand your points in your post. I would offer one slight editorial comment. The man whom the Church named The Mirror of Perfection and Christian Tradition calls the Saint of Saints, did not allow his religious to use Gregorian chant in their mass or the Liturgy of the Hours, to this day. That was Francis of Assisi.
He also introduced other elements into the liturgy that were not the norm for the Church of the time. His objection to Gregorian Chant was that he did not want the Friars Minor Capuchins to be confused with monks. Nor did he want it to be a requirement that the friars know how to sing Gregorian chant, because it would reduce the number of candidates to the order. In many orders the ability to sing complicated Gregorian chant was a requirement for adission.
He also forbade the Latin homily. He was the first founder to insist that his preachers preach in the language of the people. He was the first person ever to place the tabernacle in the sanctuary at the center. Prior to him the tabernacle was always on a side wall facing the people, usually a side altar. He did this to simplify his churches so that there was only one altar instead of three. He also wrote music in Italian for use in the mass and used string instruments to play it. He himself was a musician and a liturgist.
He introduced the use of pageants into the mass, especially at Christmas and Good Friday. He created the stations of the cross live for Good Friday liturgy. He introduced the veneration of the cross at the Good Friday liturgy. Prior to him there was a liturgy of the word on the passion.
He also ordered his friars to recite the Divine Office, not to chant it.
Many saints have come from the Friars Minor Capuchin. One of the greatest Eucharistic theologians was Bonaventure and Pascal Baylon.
Francis also introduced preaching by friars who were not deacons. He himself was a lay brother.
He also took away the title Father from friars who were priests. They were to be called friar or brother in the local language. He took away all distinctive garb between clerical friars and lay friars. He allowed his friars to receive communion in the hand.
All of these innovations were approved by the Bull of Pope Honorius in 1221 and they have never been changed.
Many studens of liturgical and classical music study St. Francisā Laudas (nothing to do with the Lauds in the Divine Office).
None of this impaired hundreds of Friars Minor Capuchin from being canonized and some from becoming Doctors of the Church, bishops and even the official theologians and preachers for the papal household to this day. They hold this office even now. They never wear a stole when they preach, unless theyāre celebrating mass. Other priests are required to wear a stole over their habit or cassock, except the Capuchins. This was done to eliminate the distinction between friar priests and lay friars.
The Poor Clares were commanded to use the Greogrian chant, because they are a monastic order. They follow the rules set down by St. Benedict for liturgy and the rules set down by St. Francis for the daily life.
The Third Order Regular, such as the friars at Franciscan University also are not to use Gregorian chant in their liturgy unless they have the permission of their major superior. They too have given the Church many holy men and women, including Mother Teresa. The Secluar Franciscans have given us many holy men and women such as Pius X, John XXIII, Louis King of France, Elizabeth of Hungary, Catherine Doherty and many others.
I do not disagree with the beauty of Gregoria chant when itās sung properly. I have seen it done by the Trappists and the Benedictines. I have also seen horrid attempts at it.
Itās not the chant that has made these men and women saints. Itās their love for Christ and his people.
JR
U
una_fides
Guest
Really? Wow. Thatās strange because that was not me stating my own words. Iām pretty sure that was a quote from Pope Benedict XVI.
Take it up with the Holy Father. I would also strongly advise against following what liberals are doing in LA.
U
una_fides
Guest
Few things. First, the many claims you made concerning St. Francis require citations.I understand your points in your post. I would offer one slight editorial comment. The man whom the Church named The Mirror of Perfection and Christian Tradition calls the Saint of Saints, did not allow his religious to use Gregorian chant in their mass or the Liturgy of the Hours, to this day. That was Francis of Assisi.
He also introduced other elements into the liturgy that were not the norm for the Church of the time. ā¦
I do not disagree with the beauty of Gregoria chant when itās sung properly. I have seen it done by the Trappists and the Benedictines. I have also seen horrid attempts at it.
Itās not the chant that has made these men and women saints. Itās their love for Christ and his people.
JR
Second, from what Iāve read, St. Francis was an anomaly and many thought him to be mad. I read on somewhere online that little children threw stones at him and that he encouraged them to do so until he was bloody, as he danced around and shouted ācome and see the new madnessā (I do not claim this information is necessarily correct because I do not have a legitimate citation). The point is that as you know St. Francis was anything but the norm, and citing him as such does actually gives more emphasis to the fact that the universal Church and her faithful were doing things differently. The fact is that 99.99% of the Latin Rite Church only used Latin in their Masses and the .01% received special permission to do otherwise. Anyone else would have been disobeying the Pope and the Council of Trent, which pretty-much disqualifies them from our perspective.
Moreover, St. Francis and his followers were extremely destitute and poor. They literally gave away everything that they owned and certainly did not live the comfortable lives that those who wish to wear torn jeans and flip flops to Mass do. In order for one to claim a right to follow in the footsteps of St. Francis, they should not start by liturgical innovations or simplicity. They should start by poverty and serious penance. It was among these minority, who were also practicing extreme self mortification that received any such permission as you indicated (citation needed). Certainly, their practices cannot be regarded as desirous to be normative for those who are weak in their faith, which judging from the lack of catechesis today, that would unfortunately consist of the majority of those who go to Mass on Sunday.
I agree with your last statement that the chant itself didnāt make them saints. But I would clarify that their love of Christ led them to thrive in their worship of Him through the calming of their spirits and thereby opening themselves up to His Divine Love. It was their love of God that also led them to preserve this very ancient form of the Churchās worship. Our goal should not be to figure out new ways to worship Christ that best fit our own personal fleshly preferences and desires. Our goal should be to follow in the footsteps of the saints that have gone before us and preserve their traditions. If we wish to worship like the early Church, let us use music like the early Church used. Modern-style music does not facilitate ancient-style worship.
God bless.
U
una_fides
Guest
There is too much I could say, but I donāt have enough time.
I donāt think the things you listed about many saints of the past are necessary for becoming a saint, but I do think that they can certainly help. I think that the Church could use more poverty today. The problem is that people today are too comfortable, and in the US especially they (we) have become wayyyy too obsessed with consumer-mindedness. We are all affected by it and must struggle against it. To the extent that we love the things of the world, the love of the Father is not in us. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father but is of the world, and the world is passing away and the lusts thereof, but he who does the will of God will abide forever (1 John 2:15-17). To remedy these evils, the Church strongly recommends to us fasting and prayer. God bless.
B
bobzills
Guest
Yes, really. And its no use taking it up with the Pope. For example, just take a look at all the dancing that takes place at the World Youth Congresses. And the Pope has been there.Really? Wow. Thatās strange because that was not me stating my own words. Iām pretty sure that was a quote from Pope Benedict XVI.
- Status