Irritated by "sheep stealing"

[GodIsGracious]

I don’t wish to offend anyone here but I have to say this bluntly. Last time I looked people had free will. minds of their own and their own moral conscience so what gives any side the right to claim they are “stealing” that which by natural law is not there to control? These are not cattle but human beings if they choose to go to one faith or another what business is that of yours?

In fact I find both sides here horribly offensive the Roman Catholics for pretty much not giving these people such a limited world view and no option for any other faith. And the evangelicals for taking advantage of these people who should have a free choice like I have in the US and exposure to many faith paths. But no they again use the same approach and take advantage of these people and use charity on both sides as the weapon.

What annoys me is that protestants, maybe not you, will spread lies about the Catholic Church. Because many people ARE gullible, that is used to a “recruiter’s” advantage. Especially in the situation that the OP described.

I’ve personally experienced the recruitment that Protestants immediately jump on. I told about my experience. I find it deplorable. The FIRST THING Protestants do is bash the Catholic church. YOU may not, but I have yet to meet a Protestant, in real life, who didn’t do so. I have yet to find one that finds it a beautiful faith and the original faith.

You should both be utterly ashamed of this.

I am by no means ashamed.

 

[Libertarian_FL]

I find most Earthly religions to have flaws, I’m not saying any are not right however they all likely try to get the truth that is out there. But what gives the Protestants and the Catholics who are in fact both Christian, and groups among the Protestants the right to treat these people like sheep?

Last time I looked the Roman Catholic Church is brainwashing them early, the Protestants save maybe groups like the Quakers brainwash them as well and as early as possible. Both are disrespecting the right of them to make up their own minds from all the options.

And I will defend this to mean baptism leading to conformation before the person is an adult is brainwashing, teaching them your side is right and the other wrong is brainwashing and scaring them with eternal hellfire if they fail to believe is in fact brainwashing.

And what is even more insideous your respective sides offer charity aid and educational opportunity to make these people dependent on you, to do these things to them, and their impressionable children. Why not let your members get confirmed at say eighteen and expose them to all the faiths then maybe I would let up but a people cut off from modern life at the level we are talking about don’t benefit from many diverse perspectives now do they?

And yes I will add in Islamic faiths in this and others, most are all in the same boat.

 

[josie_L]

I don’t wish to offend anyone here but I have to say this bluntly. Last time I looked people had free will. minds of their own and their own moral conscience so what gives any side the right to claim they are “stealing” that which by natural law is not there to control? These are not cattle but human beings if they choose to go to one faith or another what business is that of yours?

In fact I find both sides here horribly offensive the Roman Catholics for pretty much not giving these people such a limited world view and no option for any other faith. And the evangelicals for taking advantage of these people who should have a free choice like I have in the US and exposure to many faith paths. But no they again use the same approach and take advantage of these people and use charity on both sides as the weapon.

You should both be utterly ashamed of this.

Because you don’t seen to understand that quite a few Christians believe Catholics are non-Christian, and that is offensive to say the least. And it has nothing to do with free will, but the lies which many of these evangelicals/protestants spread about our faith.

P.S. You seem to think that Catholics are brainwashed by the Church to believe what they do, can you cite examples of how the CC does this? And furthermore, we have the option of leaving our faith, the Church has no “mafia” that I’m aware of.

 

[josie_L]

I** find most Earthly religions to have flaws**, I’m not saying any are not right however they all likely try to get the truth that is out there. But what gives the Protestants and the Catholics who are in fact both Christian, and groups among the Protestants the right to treat these people like sheep?

Last time I looked the Roman Catholic Church is brainwashing them early, the Protestants save maybe groups like the Quakers brainwash them as well and as early as possible. Both are disrespecting the right of them to make up their own minds from all the options.

And I will defend this to mean baptism leading to conformation before the person is an adult is brainwashing, teaching them your side is right and the other wrong is brainwashing and scaring them with eternal hellfire if they fail to believe is in fact brainwashing.

And what is even more insideous your respective sides offer charity aid and educational opportunity to make these people dependent on you, to do these things to them, and their impressionable children. Why not let your members get confirmed at say eighteen and expose them to all the faiths then maybe I would let up but a people cut off from modern life at the level we are talking about don’t benefit from many diverse perspectives now do they?

And yes I will add in Islamic faiths in this and others, most are all in the same boat.

Except your own.

 

[dzheremi]

Excuse me if I don’t take the objections of some sort of crazy cult person seriously. Has anybody else checked the link in “Libertarian FL”'s signature? More new age “revelations” from a crackpot.

And you have the nerve to turn around and tell us that we are brainwashed by the Catholic Church? Get out of here. The propagation of private revelation and assumed “prophethood” is explicitly banned by the forum rules. I assume that also means links to garbage like this “Universal Reality Parallelism” that is being peddled via that website. There are plenty of other places you can go posit alternate realities and other wierdo pseudo-science and quasi-religious philosophies built on it. Catholic Answers isn’t one of them.

 

[josie_L]

Excuse me if I don’t take the objections of some sort of crazy cult person seriously. Has anybody else checked the link in “Libertarian FL”'s signature? More new age “revelations” from a crackpot.

And you have the nerve to turn around and tell us that we are brainwashed by the Catholic Church? Get out of here. The propagation of private revelation and assumed “prophethood” is explicitly banned by the forum rules. I assume that also means links to garbage like this “Universal Reality Parallelism” that is being peddled via that website. There are plenty of other places you can go posit alternate realities and other wierdo pseudo-science and quasi-religious philosophies built on it. Catholic Answers isn’t one of them.

I haven’t checked the link and I don’t wish too. And if he/she is in violation of the forum rules, well then, there’s only one thing to do.

 

[Matariel]

I find most Earthly religions to have flaws…

Oh. Well that doesn’t include the Catholic Church, considering it’s divine and apostolic origin. I think the religion of a self-proclaimed internet revelator qualifies as an “earthly religion” though.

 

[Bookworm88]

I said the Church aknowledges Protestants as Christians, but many Protestant sects don’t acknowledge the Church as Christian.

Well, the difference may just be in the way that each group semantically uses the word “Christian.” Some people use it very generically. Like saying that America is a Christian nation. But is everybody in America a Christian? Certainly not. So that generic use is not theologically accurate.

Catholics believe that a person has to be baptized to be a Christian, so if an evangelical has been baptized they would be a Christian. An evangelical believes that a personal faith in Jesus is necessary to be a Christan, so a little baby getting baptized would not be able to have that personal faith necessary for them to be a Christian. Catholics baptize a lot of babies, and then teach that those babies are all Christian, and that is just a more generic use of the word “Christian” than what evangelicals believe is Scripturally supportable.

I think I can come up with a different word that Catholics would use in the same way that evangelicals use “Christian.” The word is “heavenbound.” In my mind, “heavenbound” has the same concept as “Christian.” Because I have accepted Jesus as my Saviour by faith alone, I am a heavenbound Christian. A Catholic would say, “Well, you may be a Christian, but you are not heaven-bound unless you are an obedient Catholic.” So a Catholic would use “heavenbound” in a much narrower sense than they would use “Christian.” An evangelical uses the word “Christian” in that same sort of narrower sense. It is not out of hatred for Catholics, but it is a result of our theological perspective of what it takes to be “heavenbound.”

 

[josie_L]

Well, the difference may just be in the way that each group semantically uses the word “Christian.” Some people use it very generically. Like saying that America is a Christian nation. But is everybody in America a Christian? Certainly not. So that generic use is not theologically accurate.

Catholics believe that a person has to be baptized to be a Christian, so if an evangelical has been baptized they would be a Christian. An evangelical believes that a personal faith in Jesus is necessary to be a Christan, so a little baby getting baptized would not be able to have that personal faith necessary for them to be a Christian. Catholics baptize a lot of babies, and then teach that those babies are all Christian, and that is just a more generic use of the word “Christian” than what evangelicals believe is Scripturally supportable.

I think I can come up with a different word that Catholics would use in the same way that evangelicals use “Christian.” The word is “heavenbound.” In my mind, “heavenbound” has the same concept as “Christian.” Because I have accepted Jesus as my Saviour by faith alone, I am a heavenbound Christian. A Catholic would say, “Well, you may be a Christian, but you are not heaven-bound unless you are an obedient Catholic.” So a Catholic would use “heavenbound” in a much narrower sense than they would use “Christian.” An evangelical uses the word “Christian” in that same sort of narrower sense. It is not out of hatred for Catholics, but it is a result of our theological perspective of what it takes to be “heavenbound.”

No, it is a result of bigotry and prejudice, plain and simple.

 

[simplynoone]

How does my post prove your point?

Your post proves my point in that you, as you claimed, gave up Catholicism at one point, yet now acknowledge that it was only a lapse… thus, why you still felt defensive when someone who had a different doctrinal view than the Catholics came in to oppose Catholicism… it got under your skin because you were still of the same mind; you were just being rebellious to your own faith.

No, you’re wrong. The Original Poster was saying how he/she gets ticked off that many Protestants attack Catholics as un-Christian. It’s not hypocritical because the Catholic Church teaches that Protestants are in fact Christian. So I think your attitude towards the Original Poster was uncalled for.

*I am just setting straight the hypocrisy that was in the original poster’s first post. It DOES upset her because she still is of the same mind of the Catholic faith and is only being rebellious toward it as of right now. If she were truly questioning the faith she once believed, then she would respect the right of others to do the same. *

 

[DeoSalvatoreMeo]

I agree with the OP. It really irritates me, too. I find strength in the faith of our Catholic brothers and sisters in the developing world and I think it’s horrible that American Protestants are trying to lead them away from the True Church. Our missionaries worked in much harder times and in much harder conditions to bring the Aztecs and Incas to Christ. But now here come some arrogant, clueless college kids, down for a quick “missionary” trip to save our Catholic brothers and sisters from that “pagan” Catholic Church…

 

[BareKnuckler]

That’s not entirely true. Extremists always make the news.

The people who attend Westboro, and the guy who started it, are all crackpots. He’s insane and his followers are decidedly not Christian. They’re not the norm. You hear about them because they’re the extremists who make the news. And the news certainly does want to bash Christianity in general. They are held up as, “See what religion does to people!” when that’s not the case.

I have experienced many a time in my life where I have met Protestants who are so anti-catholic I ceased talking to them simply because they weren’t interested in hearing the truth but just what their preacher has to say. And it surely seemed like their preacher didn’t know much.

Not always, and I do not see how that has to do with the post? I said most protestants dont mingle with the extremists, that doesn’t mean the extremists might be unpopular.

I have met a pretty good amount of Catholics who are Anti-Protestant. I do not see your point? I am simply saying, people crying over Protestants converting Catholics, even if they use statements like “your not a christian if your a Catholic”, are annoying. Catholics convert protestants, protestants convert catholics, and orthodox convert either of them, either of them convert orthodox, and on and on. It’s not like one side is being “evil” and the other is being “good” both sides are good and evil in different spots.

 

[nsper7]

Hi,

I no longer consider my Catholic (I am now a sort of atheist agnostic). However…

The “stealing” of Catholic “sheep” by Evangelical Christians REALLY gets to me.

I have a friend from back in high school who is a PK (pastor’s kid). He just graduated from Liberty University. Anyway, he just got back from a “medical mission” in some mountain top village in Peru.

I was flipping through some of the facebook pictures of the trip. Intially, my comments on seeing the pictures were along the lines of:

“Ooooo look at the cute llama!”

“Wow those are huge mountains.”

“Look at the incredible rainbow!”

…then I flipped to a picture with the caption “Catholic Church in [insert village’s name here]”.

I was taken aback. Although the trip was primarily a medical trip (you know, to teach people basic health care and first aide), I know that they did some “gospel preachin’”, too. Since the village had one nice big Catholic Church in the middle of town, one would suppose that the villagers were Catholic. They have probably been Catholic for generations. In fact, the village being so remote, they probably haven’t heard of much anything BUT Catholicism for several generations.

Now, into this bation of Catholic faith comes a group of super fundamentalist evangelical college students ready to convert the masses to Christianity.

I flip through more pictures. I see a huge class of small children (most of them probably younger than grade 3) all holding up plastic bags called “hygiene kits and Bibles”. I flip some more. I see more evidence of missionary activity.

I am now kinda pissed. I posted half joking half serious on my friend’s wall:

"i was looking at the picture of the catholic church. i hope you weren’t down there converting the catholics "

He replies:

“only the one’s who were’t christian!”

I am now even more pissed. My experience with evangelicals has let me know that many of them think that Catholics are definitely NOT Christian. It doesn’t matter how much Catholics love Jesus. It doesn’t matter how much they pray. It doesn’t matter that they are faithful. It doesn’t matter that they have been baptized. According to many of them, Christian and Catholic are mutually exclusive.

I kinda figure that my friend was just playing words games with me. It would’t surprise me if he said “only the one’s who weren’t Christian” as a cheeky, pompous, smart-*** (etc etc) disguise for “well, yeah we were.” Do you guys get my drift?

It makes me sooooo that they have the gall to go down there and preach to Catholic CHRISTIANS and tell them that they are wrong, that they are not Christian.

I want to make angry faces all over the place!!!

Well, then Catholics need to fight back. We have history on our side, as well as logic (is it logical that, even though Jesus said there would be ONE FLOCK, the Protestants claim their are thousands?) and intellect (evangelicalism tends to go for the heart/emotions).

Now, this brings me to a question: as one who sees Evangelicals proselytizing to others in general, is it okay for a Catholic to interject themselves into the argument (what Evangelical proselytizing), giving the Catholic P.O.V.? Obviously, the risk is that it may turn the person being witnessed to away completely, but is that worth the risk to avoid Evangelical brainwashing of another person?

 

[josie_L]

Not always, and I do not see how that has to do with the post? I said most protestants dont mingle with the extremists, that doesn’t mean the extremists might be unpopular.

I have met a pretty good amount of Catholics who are Anti-Protestant. I do not see your point? I am simply saying, people crying over Protestants converting Catholics, even if they use statements like “your not a christian if your a Catholic”, are annoying. Catholics convert protestants, protestants convert catholics, and orthodox convert either of them, either of them convert orthodox, and on and on. It’s not like one side is being “evil” and the other is being “good” both sides are good and evil in different spots.

Yes, some Catholics can be anti-Protestant, but not the Church (it views Protestants as separated brethren), whereas, whole protestant denominations view Catholics negatively (SDAs , Jehovah’s Witnesses, Dispensationalists . . . ) and lie about us (calling us the "Whore of Babylon and our Pope the “antichrist”, this is part of the theology coming out of some of these sects) to gain converts.

 

[BareKnuckler]

Yes, some Catholics can be anti-Protestant, but not the Church (it views Protestants as separated brethren), whereas, whole protestant denominations view Catholics negatively (SDAs , Jehovah’s Witnesses, Dispensationalists . . . ) and lie about us (calling us the "Whore of Babylon and our Pope the “antichrist”, this is part of the theology coming out of some of these sects) to gain converts.

I cannot help that they don’t like you. I was never part of them (I was a SBC, still am in reality, cause I have issues that don’t allow me to leave). Just because their entire sects don’t like you changes the fact that some (I’d say many) protestants don’t really care about the RCC or call it the whore of babylon, and if I am right, don’t most people consider the JW’s non-christians?

 

[Georgia]

When I was Baptist, I never thought sheep stealing was something we should do, but I was in the minority in our congregation. The people who never went to church were just too hard to get into the pews. If we could get those others, people who didn’t really understand the Bible, meaning everyone who disagreed with us, to visit our church, we could get them on the right path. It struck me as arrogant then and it does now. Our independent church had somehow unlocked the truths that no one else in 2000 years had been able to do.

The Catholic outreach I have seen has been much softer than the aggressive tactics we employed. Even if people went to church every time the doors opened, we were encouraged to visit them, to offer a tract, and to get them into our church.

I live in an area that is overwhelmingly Protestant, so I can look at this in reverse. It would appear to me that we had lost our minds if we stood on corners passing out tracts attacking the Protestants’ faith.

Living a good faith example seems much more in line with Catholic evangelistic efforts here and abroad. The remainder of my extended family is Baptist, so I see those publications. It appears that virtually all their missionary effort is placed into places that are fully Christianized.

 

[Matariel]

I cannot help that they don’t like you. I was never part of them (I was a SBC, still am in reality, cause I have issues that don’t allow me to leave). Just because their entire sects don’t like you changes the fact that some (I’d say many) protestants don’t really care about the RCC or call it the whore of babylon, and if I am right, don’t most people consider the JW’s non-christians?

What stake do you have in this? You’re into Taoism and Buddhism. Why are you reproving those who don’t even believe as you do? I’m sorry, but it seems this kind of discussion would be none of your business, sorry, trying not to sound rude.

 

[reen12]

…It makes me sooooo that they have the gall to go down there and preach to Catholic CHRISTIANS and tell them that they are wrong, that they are not Christian.

I want to make angry faces all over the place!!!

I have a similar feeling, when I hear Christians referring to the “Old Testament,”
rather than to the ‘Hebrew Scriptures.’

reen12

 

[josie_L]

When I was Baptist, I never thought sheep stealing was something we should do, but I was in the minority in our congregation. The people who never went to church were just too hard to get into the pews. If we could get those others, people who didn’t really understand the Bible, meaning everyone who disagreed with us, to visit our church, we could get them on the right path. It struck me as arrogant then and it does now. Our independent church had somehow unlocked the truths that no one else in 2000 years had been able to do.

The Catholic outreach I have seen has been much softer than the aggressive tactics we employed. Even if people went to church every time the doors opened, we were encouraged to visit them, to offer a tract, and to get them into our church.

I live in an area that is overwhelmingly Protestant, so I can look at this in reverse. It would appear to me that we had lost our minds if we stood on corners passing out tracts attacking the Protestants’ faith.

Living a good faith example seems much more in line with Catholic evangelistic efforts here and abroad. The remainder of my extended family is Baptist, so I see those publications. It appears that virtually all their missionary effort is placed into places that are fully Christianized.

And I have to wonder why? Is it because it’s easier to work in such countries as oppose to lets say an Islamic country? I don’t want to sound cynical (but it probably will) but I find some of our protestant brethren think we’re easy pickings (viewing us as non-christians will only make it seem like what they’re doing is more worthwhile). And I do not appreciate the effort that the CC has put in over the centuries to be undermined by other christian missionaries who will come and destroy the unity of the Catholic faith in Latin America indirectly/directly through lies/misconceptions.

 

[josie_L]

I cannot help that they don’t like you. I didn’t ask for your help.I was never part of them (I was a SBC, still am in reality, cause I have issues that don’t allow me to leave). That’s good to know.Just because their entire sects don’t like you changes the fact that some (I’d say many) protestants don’t really care about the RCC or call it the whore of babylon, and if I am right, don’t most people consider the JW’s non-christians?Did I say that all or most Protestants do this?

Because quite a few though not all Christians spread lies about us (and purposely target our flocks because in their minds we are non-christians), doesn’t make it any less supportable? It’s downright unchristian to do such a thing.