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PRmerger
Guest
Since heaven is the Marriage Feast of the Lamb (see Revelations) we go to heaven when we say Yes to the Divine Marriage Proposal. When we turn away from Him, we turn away from heaven.
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JohnDeereFan
Guest
Is that all we have to do? Just say “yes”? Doesn’t the Bible put a few more requirements on those attending the Marriage Feast?
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PRmerger
Guest
What do you mean, is that all? Isn’t saying yes to the Divine Marriage the ultimate Yes?
You sound like a husband asking his wife, after they’ve consummated their marriage and become One Flesh, “is that all?”
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JohnDeereFan
Guest
I mean is simply wanting to be present at the Marriage Feast all we have to do?
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PRmerger
Guest
No, simply wanting to be present at the Marriage feast is not all we have to do.
Just as simply wanting to be a good husband is not enough.
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SonofMonica
Guest
When you are faith-ful to your wife, that doesn’t simply mean you believe in her, or you believe you should be good to her or love her. Being faith-ful implies and demands adherence, fidelity, acts of love apart from words. For a Catholic, being faith-ful to God apart from showing him we love him through our works (not works of the law!) is not being faith-ful to our marriage to him at all. God does not take us at our word, but judges us by what we do to love him and love others (as you do to the least of them…)
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JohnDeereFan
Guest
So then, back to my question: Do we go to Heaven because we’re equipped or because we’re forgiven, reconciled to God through Christ’s atonement on our behalf, and adopted as children of His?
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SonofMonica
Guest
JohnDeereFan:
You misunderstand causation. Those of us who go to heaven will go there “because” of a lot of things, including the covenant relationship between Christ and his Church, the “Yes” of Mary to the Holy Spirit’s incarnation within her, Christ’s death on the cross and subsequent resurrection, and a long list of other things.
We go to heaven “by” the grace of God. Period.
You misunderstand causation. Those of us who go to heaven will go there “because” of a lot of things, including the covenant relationship between Christ and his Church, the “Yes” of Mary to the Holy Spirit’s incarnation within her, Christ’s death on the cross and subsequent resurrection, and a long list of other things.
We go to heaven “by” the grace of God. Period.
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JohnDeereFan
Guest
So then, I guess a straight answer is out of the question.
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SonofMonica
Guest
It’s impossible to answer a false dichotomy. It’s like if I said to you “Are you a Christian or do you follow Jesus?” You can’t rightly answer either one, because it presents a false choice.
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SonofMonica
Guest
For example, I would say that I good piece of “equipment” to be “equipped” with is making sure my sins were forgiven. Wouldn’t want to leave Earth without that. Do you see what I mean? You mentioned equipped VERSUS forgiven. I am saying it’s a false choice.
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JohnDeereFan
Guest
It’s not a false dichotomy at all. It’s a very simple question.
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JohnDeereFan
Guest
So then it’s not that my question presents a false dichotomy, it’s that you’re playing word games.
Bye bye.
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bengland
Guest
It’s a leading question at the very least that assumes that instruments of grace are opposed to Christ’s atonement and Filial adoptioon, which makes it false. The limited answer available is dictated by the limits you have imposed in the question. Trying to force others to answer the question within your prescribed scope isn’t proving anything.
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SonofMonica
Guest
How? I’m sorry, I truly don’t get it. I’m not trying to deceive you. Why would I take time out of my day to play games with you? I am an adult, practicing law in two states, married. I’m not using this site as a video game. I truly care about the issues we’re discussing. I’ve tried to honestly answer your question the best way I can, but I can’t say that the fact that Christ died on the cross means I don’t have to be equipped to go to heaven. Is it my terminology you have a problem with?
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SonofMonica
Guest
Stephen Colbert used to ask, “George Bush: Great President, or Greatest President?”
He was doing it on purpose, but I can’t tell if JohnDeereFan is or not. Either way, am I not being honest and correct in saying that it’s a false dichotomy, pursuant to Catholic teaching?
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JohnDeereFan
Guest
Being “equipped” and being born again are not the same thing. Being equipped means that you have tools that you use to gain salvation. Being born again is something that you cannot do. It is a free, completely unmerited gift.
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bengland
Guest
I suppose it could be answered in a way by rejecting the bounds imposed and explaining why. Unfortunately I have to leave in a few minutes and cannot do that.
edit: nevermind. the context changed. He provided his own answer. I still don’t have the time to continue.
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SonofMonica
Guest
JohnDeereFan:
I’m sorry if the use of “equipped” offended you. I’ve heard it used in protestant circles as well, as in, don’t leave earth without having prayed to ask Jesus in your heart. I was simply referring to the state of your soul. Catholics could not and do not earn their salvation any more than you would be able to.
In Catholic doctrine, being “born again” refers to water baptism. In that, we are not doing anything to manipulate God. It is God providing the gift of his grace and forgiveness of sins to us freely through the sacrament. And yes, it is completely unmerited. God is doing all the work.
Do you see now why we do not view the sacraments as opposed to unearned salvation, but we view them as simply the means by which God gives it to us? Not asking you to agree, but do you see how we could think that?
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JohnDeereFan
Guest
Then why does Catholicism teach that you must expiate your own sins in Purgatory?
But that isn’t Biblical.
If one is born again at baptism, then how do you explain all of the people who have been baptised who do not produce fruit consistent with being born again?
No, if you’re participating in salvific rituals, then you are, by definition, working for your own salvation.
Yes, I understand how Catholicism could cause you to think that.
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