Is 2 Maccabees contradictory to Catholic Teaching?

[trumpet152]

Mickey:

You should leave this judgement to God.

I competely agree. We can’t say that Jews are going to hell. That’s not our place.

 

[anthony_flavell]

I must be missing something

How does it support purgatory, many Christians believe that we don’t go to heaven after death instead they believe our spirits stay in “suspended animation” until the resurrection. These prayers in Mccabees are offered so that when God judges them at the Judgment he will take into consideration all of the prayers that have been offered for that person over time. That’s their reasoning not mine

Doesn’t this support their theory?

 

[Micael]

Alfie:

If Baptism is that important… then why didn’t Jesus Baptise anyone?

Alfie, I think you’ve missed the big picture. The Lord actual COMMANDS his disciples to do this. He states this clearly when he tells his Church in Matthew 28:19-20 :

“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.”

So if Christ makes such a bold statement, an command none-the-less…I in the name of “making disciples of all nations” …BAPTIZISM is most certainly very important.

 

[John-the-Seeker]

As has been answered Maccabees is not contrary to the Faith and Catholic Teaching.
Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged. We do not know the mind of God. It has been attributed to Jesus that He has said,“If it were up to mortal man’s judgement, none of you would get into Heaven,” It is also attributed to Jesus that He said,“Do you think my Jews do not go to Heaven, if their hearts are right? Of course they do. They do not worship Me, but they worship My Father and I am one with The Father.” It is not the label on the outside that gets you into Heaven, but rather what is in your heart. If we divide the Body of Christ as Christians, what is there left for Satan to do?
Not once in the Bible does it say to judge anyone. That is for God alone. If it is revealed to us, in Spirit, to correct a brother by using the judgement provided by God as per Padre Pio’s gift, then we are to do so with love.
The whole teaching of the Bible can be summed up in one statement. Love one another as I have loved you. We hope for and we expect forgiveness and correction of our faults, in His time, because we believe God understands our faults, shortcomings, sins and needs and has provided a redemptive path for all He has created. If I believe this for me, why would I jeoprodize my salvation by judging that God cannot change the heart of anyone else because of a creed or a sin?
As Saint Michael, the Archangel said to Satan,“I will leave it to my Father in Heaven to correct you.”

 

[awfulthings9]

anthony flavell:

I must be missing something

How does it support purgatory, many Christians believe that we don’t go to heaven after death instead they believe our spirits stay in “suspended animation” until the resurrection. These prayers in Mccabees are offered so that when God judges them at the Judgment he will take into consideration all of the prayers that have been offered for that person over time. That’s their reasoning not mine

Doesn’t this support their theory?

Perhaps it supports their theory, but unfortunately, their theory isn’t supported by Scripture, which tells us that our admission into heaven isn’t dependent upon prayers of others, but upon Christ’s sacrifice for us and whether or not we accept the justififying faith and works that God has given us through his grace. Can you name some denominations that believe that prayers can persuade God to change his mind about whether a person goes to Heaven or Hell? I don’t believe I’m aware that any exist. As Catholics, we believe prayer is efficacious in reducing another’s temporal punishment from sinin Purgatory or, DURING his/her lifetime, eliciting additional grace on his/her behalf, but Scripture tells us that “we die once and then comes judgement.” No amount of prayers during some “suspended animation” will help us into Heaven if our decisions on Earth have directed us toward Hell.

 

[jimmy]

Micael:

In reviewing multiple Bible versions, translations, and editions I made a Bible search and found this web site “Which Bible Should I Use?”
(godonthe.net/evidence/versions.htm ).

Here Mr.Rick Reinckens makes a fair review of all english bibles Catholic and Protestant.

Regarding the NAB he makes this statement:

“Protestants do not consider the Apocrypha divinely inspired and point to various teachings that directly contradict Protestant, and in some cases even Catholic doctrines.” then proceeds to give an example in 2 Maccabees 12:31-34, 39-42 a passage regarding prayers to the dead (in support of purgatory). However he makes a subsequent comment stating that the men that died in the battle died because of their idolatry to the pagan God Jamnia thus this should make their prayers useless as idolatry is a mortal sin.

Is their truth to this?

And does one mortal sin or act directly condem a person to eternal hellfire thus making any prayer to such dead useless?

Thanks.

No matter how a person dies, prayers for them may be efficacious. This person does not know the state of those peoples souls and therefore can not make a claim on them.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

bigdawg:

I am not quite certain if you disagree with what I have written. If you do disagree, you may think that I somehow believe that all people outside the Church will be damned. I do not believe this nor do I understand the Church to teach this. On the other hand, if you believe the Church teaches that one can knowingly reject both Christ and His Church and still arrive at eternal salvation, I suggest you re-read Lumen Gentium as well as various other documents that deal with this issue.

LG has not made any statement equivalent to saying that one can knowingly reject both Christ and His Church and still be saved nor, to the best of my knowledge, has any church document ever made such a claim.

In fact Lumen Gentium states quite plainly “Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.”

I would also like to add that Lumen Gentium is not the first place that the Church made an exception to “outside the Church…no salvation”. I thought there were earlier mentions of invincible ignorance but certainly Pius IX in "Quanto Conficiamur Moerore" which I believe was written around 1863(?) allowed for invincible ignorance:

7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments

Notice that Pius IX says that it is a very grave error to believe “that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity.” Note also that he goes on to say that there are some who struggle with invincible ignorance and that God will not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.

We could debate forever who is and who isn’t invincibly ignorant and get no where. Fortunately, that judgement isn’t ours to make.

Hey Big dog,Looks like many of your brothers are having a problem with your big bone presented here. God Bless

 

[awfulthings9]

SPOKENWORD:

Hey Big dog,Looks like many of your brothers are having a problem with your big bone presented here. God Bless

Actually, we don’t. Your initial statement was that many Jews are on their way to Hell, which is an assessment that none of us are qualified to make. What bigdawg is saying is that, should one reject Christ or his Church, and do so with adequate knowledge, that person faces damnation. His earlier post confused me and some others by seeming to imply that he felt the CC agreed with your assessment of the Jews, but he has adequately demonstrated that neither he nor the Church is judging anyone, but rather reaffirming the teaching of our Church that, aside from cases of invinsible ignorance, a rejection of Christ is a fatal error. The mistake you made, and which he didn’t was in carrying this one step to far and to actually condemn a group of people based on what you assume is in their hearts and their formative backgrounds. I think Bigdawg’s last post was very much on target.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

awfulthings9:

Actually, we don’t. Your initial statement was that many Jews are on their way to Hell, which is an assessment that none of us are qualified to make. What bigdawg is saying is that, should one reject Christ or his Church, and do so with adequate knowledge, that person faces damnation. His earlier post confused me and some others by seeming to imply that he felt the CC agreed with your assessment of the Jews, but he has adequately demonstrated that neither he nor the Church is judging anyone, but rather reaffirming the teaching of our Church that, aside from cases of invinsible ignorance, a rejection of Christ is a fatal error. The mistake you made, and which he didn’t was in carrying this one step to far and to actually condemn a group of people based on what you assume is in their hearts and their formative backgrounds. I think Bigdawg’s last post was very much on target.

And so do I. God Bless

 

[Micael]

awfulthings9:

Actually, we don’t. Your initial statement was that many Jews are on their way to Hell, which is an assessment that none of us are qualified to make. What bigdawg is saying is that, should one reject Christ or his Church, and do so with adequate knowledge, that person faces damnation. His earlier post confused me and some others by seeming to imply that he felt the CC agreed with your assessment of the Jews, but he has adequately demonstrated that neither he nor the Church is judging anyone, but rather reaffirming the teaching of our Church that, aside from cases of invinsible ignorance, a rejection of Christ is a fatal error. The mistake you made, and which he didn’t was in carrying this one step to far and to actually condemn a group of people based on what you assume is in their hearts and their formative backgrounds. I think Bigdawg’s last post was very much on target.

Agree 100% awfully, Bigdawg