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Mijoy2
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Church Militant:
I read this post and immediately had to look at the profile, thinking; this statement “…many Jews are on the way to Hell.” could not have come from a Catholic.
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Micael
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Church_Militant
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And just what teachings would those be?How true this is,and that is one of the reason that many Jews are on the way to Hell. They reject Christ and His teachings.God Bless
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Gottle_of_Geer
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That knocks the stuffing out of the constant attacks on “liberals” - and a good thing too
Getting back to the thread before it gets closed down for drifting - there is plenty of stuff in the OT which is utterly unChristian. It doesn’t matter - because the truth of the Bible does not require the author of Psalm 137.9 to express the ethics of the Sermon on the Mount; any more than it requires the genocidal activities of Joshua to conform to the same Sermon. From a Christian perspective, a lot of the OT is anything but Christian; so trying to insist that 1 Samuel 15, in which Samuel rebukes King Saul for the sin of not killing Agag (and so, of failing to exterminate Amalek to the last man) represents the mind of Christ, is a hopeless task. Some things in the Bible are not to be done; unless one assumes that prophets and kings are more or less impeccable. There 's no basis for the idea - not even if it is to be applied to people in the Bible.So if the warriors in that passage were guilty of superstition, we don’t have to try justifying the superstition. To justify what is wrong, is merely a form of the relativism people seem to dread so much. David’s life was hardly squeaky clean - the Biblical texts make that very clear: so why must we defend this incident ? To have one’s story told in a canonical book, is completely irrelevant to moral conduct: so this incident can’t be used for or against the canonicity of ths book - not unless the critic is ready to chuck out 1 Samuel & 2 Samuel. ##
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SPOKENWORD
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Church Militant:
God Bless
That He is the Son of God who has the power to forgive sins and has offered His blood for the sacrifice of sins and that no matter what they offer as a sacrifice it will not atone for their sins.
God Bless
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SPOKENWORD
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That He is the Son of God who has the power to forgive sins and has offered His blood for the sacrifice of sins and that no matter what they offer as a sacrifice it will not atone for their sins. Also there is no way to be saved but through Jesus Christ.
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bigdawg
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SPOKENWORD:
Aren’t there several encyclicals that say the same and aren’t encyclicals written by popes?I read this post and immediately had to look at the profile, thinking; this statement “…many Jews are on the way to Hell.” could not have come from a Catholic.
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awfulthings9
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Mijoy2:
Actually, bigdawg, the burden of proof is on you, here. Can you provide the text for an encyclical that says Jews are on the way to Hell?
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bigdawg
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bigdawg:
The Council of Florence for example can be found at
ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/FLORENCE.HTM
The text in question is:
“It firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the catholic church.”
Once you get to the document you can do a word search to find the above text. I believe that it occurs in session 11.
It doesn’t seem to me that it should be shocking that someone who rejects both Christ and the Church is in danger of eternal damnation, Jewish or not.
My apologies for taking this thread off topic.
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Aaron_I
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Thanks for the reference bigdawg. That pretty much lines up with everything I was ever taught. The Catholic Church is the only means of salvation.
Baptism is the means by which one enters the Catholic Church. There are three types: water, blood, desire. Non-Catholics may even be saved in that they gain entrance into the Church through baptisms by either blood or desire. Baptism by desire would be in the case of the person who never had the truth presented to them and therefore never had the chance to accept it. If they still saught and served the True God without knowing Him, they will still be saved. This would happen even if they flatly rejected Jesus, but only if they rejected a false representation of Jesus.
Baptism by blood is the other option. The text seems to disapprove of baptism by blood, but I think that that would be a misrepresentation. Basically if a person knows that Catholicism is the true Church and rejects it, or if he has been taught the truth about Catholicism and rejects it, no noble need can save him. If however he dies in the name of Christ without having denied Catholicism, he will be saved.
Baptism is the means by which one enters the Catholic Church. There are three types: water, blood, desire. Non-Catholics may even be saved in that they gain entrance into the Church through baptisms by either blood or desire. Baptism by desire would be in the case of the person who never had the truth presented to them and therefore never had the chance to accept it. If they still saught and served the True God without knowing Him, they will still be saved. This would happen even if they flatly rejected Jesus, but only if they rejected a false representation of Jesus.
Baptism by blood is the other option. The text seems to disapprove of baptism by blood, but I think that that would be a misrepresentation. Basically if a person knows that Catholicism is the true Church and rejects it, or if he has been taught the truth about Catholicism and rejects it, no noble need can save him. If however he dies in the name of Christ without having denied Catholicism, he will be saved.
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estesbob
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Readers should note that that is YOUR opinion and does not reflect the teachings of the Catholic Church. So although the Jews may reject the teachisng of Christ you reject the teachings of his Church.How true this is,and that is one of the reason that many Jews are on the way to Hell. They reject Christ and His teachings.
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estesbob
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awfulthings9:
Whether it is shocking or not is irelevant. Its simpy not the teachings of the Church. Vatican II Clatified that althgh slavation is available only through the Catholic Church membership in the Church is not a pre-requisite. Heres what they said:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...s/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html
- Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126); But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”,(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.
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awfulthings9
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awfulthings9:
The text in question is:
“It firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the catholic church.”
Once you get to the document you can do a word search to find the above text. I believe that it occurs in session 11.
It doesn’t seem to me that it should be shocking that someone who rejects both Christ and the Church is in danger of eternal damnation, Jewish or not.
My apologies for taking this thread off topic.
I won’t keep the thread off topic either. First, as I often wish others would do when I have proven my case, I must tell bigdawg nice job in backing up the claim I challenged him on. I feel that this quote from Florence was written as a hyperbolic response to heretics of the time (which are listed in the same section), was clarified, as a later poster mentioned, at Vatican II, and doesn’t reflect the same judgement and venom we saw in the post by Spokenword. However, that said, I don’t wish to continue steering the post off-topic either, but to acknowledge Bigdawg’s satisfactory location of the proof I requred of him and to say that, yes, I agree that anyone who has been adequately presented with the truth of Christ and His Church should fear the consequences of rejecting this knowledge.
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Alfie
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Aaron I.:
If Baptism is that important… then why didn’t Jesus Baptise anyone?
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bigdawg
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Do we know that He didn’t or is scripture just silent on the issue?
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mercygate
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John 4:1-3:
1] Now when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John
2] (although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples),
3] he left Judea and departed again to Galilee.
I guess the question would be why Jesus allowed his disciples to baptize in his name (“Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples”) if it wasn’t important.
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estesbob
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On topic or not these are Catholic Forums and when someone posts something that is contrary to Catholic teachings it must be pointed out. All of us our entilted to our opinion and if one believes that Jews are going to hell that is fine (although in errorz) as long as they dont claim the Church shares this view. It doesnt. And unfortuantley there are some Catholics who actually beleive it does.
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SPOKENWORD
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bigdawg:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...s/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html
Oh yes ,All people remain dear to God . Why not ,He is everyones creator and He loves all His children. BUT the truth of the matter is that those who reject Christ will not see heaven. This includes everyone He has created including the Jews. God loves us very much and He will continue to love us even in Hell. Sorry for spilling out this poison.
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SPOKENWORD
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My oppinion?
I dont think so. God will judge everyone according to His Law. 
God Bless
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bigdawg
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I am not quite certain if you disagree with what I have written. If you do disagree, you may think that I somehow believe that all people outside the Church will be damned. I do not believe this nor do I understand the Church to teach this. On the other hand, if you believe the Church teaches that one can knowingly reject both Christ and His Church and still arrive at eternal salvation, I suggest you re-read Lumen Gentium as well as various other documents that deal with this issue.
LG has not made any statement equivalent to saying that one can knowingly reject both Christ and His Church and still be saved nor, to the best of my knowledge, has any church document ever made such a claim.
In fact Lumen Gentium states quite plainly “Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.”
I would also like to add that Lumen Gentium is not the first place that the Church made an exception to “outside the Church…no salvation”. I thought there were earlier mentions of invincible ignorance but certainly Pius IX in "Quanto Conficiamur Moerore" which I believe was written around 1863(?) allowed for invincible ignorance:
7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments
Notice that Pius IX says that it is a very grave error to believe “that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity.” Note also that he goes on to say that there are some who struggle with invincible ignorance and that God will not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.
We could debate forever who is and who isn’t invincibly ignorant and get no where. Fortunately, that judgement isn’t ours to make.
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