Is a ban on children discrimination? Liberal hypocricy?

[pnewton]

From the following articles:

shine.yahoo.com/channel/parenting/the-no-kids-allowed-movement-is-spreading-2516110/

shine.yahoo.com/channel/parenting/restaurant-bans-kids-under-6-discrimination-or-smart-move-2509487;_ylt=AnMnXsfL1OJxtecXdUg.Y4d8bqU5

A Vermont inn is being sued over their refusal to allow a homosexual wedding reception. Yet here we have a movement to refuse service to families with young children. What gives? The good and holy are fair game, but the unholy gets the ACLU to step in. A poster in the Vermont thread equated accusing the ACLU of some agenda with believing Elvis is in a UFO. Yet it seems that discrimination it allowable for things that our society deems acceptable. So where is the tolerance here?

Should a restaurant be allowed to ban children? What about the mental handicapped? If the first but not the latter, then what is the difference?

FYI - My opinion is “yes” on all accounts except those specifically spelled out in the fourteenth amendment on the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (which does not protect homosexual functions, btw).

 

[gelsbern]

Since you can’t force parents these days to make their children behave, I think this is a good solution.

Family is a good thing, don’t get me wrong, but I don’t know how many times I have had things ruined because of unruly children. I’ll give a couple examples.

I was at a movie theater, I bought my ticket and got in line at the concessions stand. In front of me was a woman with 4 kids aging from 4 to 9 letting them pick out their candy. It took 15 minutes for them to make up their minds. When I was a kid, the movie theater was a treat, my parents bought us popcorn and a pop, and we were happy. We didn’t waste adults’ time.

Another time I was at a restaurant, a couple was there with their child, he was about 7. He was running around, crawling under tables, he crawled under my table, stood up and knocked the entire table over. So now I had to wait for them to re-cook my order and everything else. What should have been a quick quiet meal, ended up a disaster.

There are a hundred other examples where the presence of kids has changed things for adults. Kids should be seen and not heard, and aren’t necessarily welcome at every place adults want to be.

If more businesses start doing this, I think I will start to frequent them.

 

[Mumbles140]

I was at a movie theater, I bought my ticket and got in line at the concessions stand. In front of me was a woman with 4 kids aging from 4 to 9 letting them pick out their candy. It took 15 minutes for them to make up their minds. When I was a kid, the movie theater was a treat, my parents bought us popcorn and a pop, and we were happy. We didn’t waste adults’ time.

Another time I was at a restaurant, a couple was there with their child, he was about 7. He was running around, crawling under tables, he crawled under my table, stood up and knocked the entire table over. So now I had to wait for them to re-cook my order and everything else. What should have been a quick quiet meal, ended up a disaster.

There are a hundred other examples where the presence of kids has changed things for adults. Kids should be seen and not heard, and aren’t necessarily welcome at every place adults want to be.

If more businesses start doing this, I think I will start to frequent them.

Forgive me, but my brother and his wife have 5 children. Is 15 minutes considered sufficient to ‘ruin’ your evening? Now, having your dinner delayed is serious, and I’m sure that was not pleasant. However, how many young children/infants were there that you didn’t notice?

Of course kids ‘change things’ for adults, but that doesn’t mean it is a bad thing. Yes, I would be upset if kids were allowed at the local watering hole or at a comedy club where there might be adult language/humor. But banning them from places where they aren’t in danger or subject to ‘adult situations’ (language, nudity, alcohol, etc) seems a bit ridiculous for things that appear to be minor inconveniences.

Not sure of your religious affiliation, but whenever I get frustrated with a crying baby, terrible tot, or a child having a tantrum, I just think how happy I am that their mother chose life, and that God has created this person, just like you and me.

 

[Alix1912]

In my opinion a private company should be able to deny anyone access to their business, for any reason. Most business owners are smarter than this because it limits their customer base and profits. As for a white table cloth fancy resturant banning kids…I’m a mom and I’m OK with that.

 

[IrishRush]

I could understand a ban in the very upscale restaurants (or places of that ilk) where children really have no place, but generally banning them from businesses is taking it too far I think. Rather than banning them from the start, how about having a very visibly posted policy that states that families with disruptive children will be asked to leave. I find it very annoying when I am out, say at a restaurant or movie, and someone’s child is loud, running around or screaming/crying and the parents do nothing to control the situation. If the manager of that business were to ask the parents to rein in the kid or leave, it would make the other customers very happy I’m sure. I know it would improve my mood.

 

[Allegra]

I think it should be up to the business owner. Some people hate being around other people’s kids. (and frankly, some people’s kids are unpleasant to be around) If a eatery can bring in a good customer base by promising a “kid free” environment, why not let them? Then the people who can’t stand kids can be happy at the place they want to eat and the people that want to bring their kids can trash Applebee’s. Everyone’s happy. (Except the bus boy at Applebee’s)

 

[PatriceA]

I think it should be up to the business owner. Some people hate being around other people’s kids. (and frankly, some people’s kids are unpleasant to be around) If a eatery can bring in a good customer base by promising a “kid free” environment, why not let them? Then the people who can’t stand kids can be happy at the place they want to eat and the people that want to bring their kids can trash Applebee’s. Everyone’s happy. (Except the bus boy at Applebee’s)

We live near the restaurant that is talked about in the yahoo link in the OP. The owner of the restaurant has said numerous times on the local news segments that he’s really only following the wishes of his main customer base. If I owned an establishment, and most of my loyal customers were complaining about an issue that I could legally address, such as banning children under 6, then I would do what I needed to do to keep my customers happy. There are just some places that parents should know better not to take the whole family. And when parents can’t use common sense, then you have this situation that the restaurant owner has to make the decision for them. Its not like its the only restaurant in that area anyways, there are plenty of more family friendly establishments that provide quality meals for all.

 

[Mumbles140]

In my opinion a private company should be able to deny anyone access to their business, for any reason. Most business owners are smarter than this because it limits their customer base and profits. As for a white table cloth fancy resturant banning kids…I’m a mom and I’m OK with that.

Businesses tried doing that in the past to minorities. The federal government disagreed and forced integration under the powers of interstate commerce (i.e. your ketchup is manufactured out of state. Therefore, interstate commerce applies - open your doors). These businesses, private or not, are banned from discriminating.

As for IrishRush’s suggestion, I think it would be great if more employees/managers, in a polite way, cracked down more on loud/rowdy/wild customers of any age. But again, in the grand scheme of things, I don’t know how much terror bad children really do on an average evening. So you might not have heard a line in the movie when a baby cried, or had to talk a little louder to your date because the booth next to you had a family in it. At the end of the day, is it really that tragic where you want to remove your exposure to kids except your own?

How many times have you been around a kid, whether you knew them or not, and see them do something so funny, silly, or cute that it makes you smile? I’d take an hour of crying babies for one of those innocent moments of happiness.

 

[Allegra]

Businesses tried doing that in the past to minorities. The federal government disagreed and forced integration under the powers of interstate commerce (i.e. your ketchup is manufactured out of state. Therefore, interstate commerce applies - open your doors). These businesses, private or not, are banned from discriminating.

As for IrishRush’s suggestion, I think it would be great if more employees/managers, in a polite way, cracked down more on loud/rowdy/wild customers of any age. But again, in the grand scheme of things, I don’t know how much terror bad children really do on an average evening. So you might not have heard a line in the movie when a baby cried, or had to talk a little louder to your date because the booth next to you had a family in it. At the end of the day, is it really that tragic where you want to remove your exposure to kids except your own?

How many times have you been around a kid, whether you knew them or not, and see them do something so funny, silly, or cute that it makes you smile? I’d take an hour of crying babies for one of those innocent moments of happiness.

Actually, yeah, I have walked out of restraunts because of kids before. Some people really just don’t get it. I’ve had kids on the train literally jump into my lap to show me their candy bar. I’ve had my food spilled by other people’s kids pulling on the table cloth of my table. People let their kids roam around the place unsupervised. Their kids scream so loud you can’t have a conversation. Once, I turned around and caught a little boy going through my purse. While at a public attraction, a kid about six or seven ran up behind where my brother was sitting, grabbed his hat off his head, and threw it into a water feature. Granted, these are extreme situations and fairly rare, however, I could totally see a market for kid-free environments. As far as I know, being under twelve isn’t protected contitutionally.

 

[Mumbles140]

Actually, yeah, I have walked out of restraunts because of kids before. Some people really just don’t get it. I’ve had kids on the train literally jump into my lap to show me their candy bar. I’ve had my food spilled by other people’s kids pulling on the table cloth of my table. People let their kids roam around the place unsupervised. Their kids scream so loud you can’t have a conversation. Once, I turned around and caught a little boy going through my purse. While at a public attraction, a kid about six or seven ran up behind where my brother was sitting, grabbed his hat off his head, and threw it into a water feature. Granted, these are extreme situations and fairly rare, however, I could totally see a market for kid-free environments. As far as I know, being under twelve isn’t protected contitutionally.

Did you talk to the parents on any of these occasions? Or management? If you know these establishments are frequented by families, why don’t you either find a different restaurant or go at less kid-friendly times (later evenings during the school week, for example)? I’m not trying to see a person should have to put up with these things - it is a lot. But kids are not wild animals. Address the problems with the parents, or the business owner/manager who isn’t taking appropriate action. Most children are well behaved, or are disciplined when they aren’t. Let’s not take the extreme action of banning all children, but rather having a much more strict policy about misbehaving children…

 

[pnewton]

Granted, these are extreme situations and fairly rare, however, I could totally see a market for kid-free environments.

I would say they are rare. I have never seen anything remotely like that. So would also say it is okay to ban the mentally handicapped because of rare instances where they cause a similar disruption?

 

[agnes_therese]

But kids are not wild animals. Address the problems with the parents, or the business owner/manager who isn’t taking appropriate action. Most children are well behaved, or are disciplined when they aren’t. Let’s not take the extreme action of banning all children, but rather having a much more strict policy about misbehaving children…

Some kids will act like wild animals because their parents allow it. And just try having a “more strict policy” about it and see the grief you have to take from those same parents. It’s probably a lot easier for a business owner to ban children under 6 entirely than to deal with those parents. So blame the parents, not the business owners.

 

[PatriceA]

Did you talk to the parents on any of these occasions? Or management? If you know these establishments are frequented by families, why don’t you either find a different restaurant or go at less kid-friendly times (later evenings during the school week, for example)? I’m not trying to see a person should have to put up with these things - it is a lot. But kids are not wild animals. Address the problems with the parents, or the business owner/manager who isn’t taking appropriate action. Most children are well behaved, or are disciplined when they aren’t. Let’s not take the extreme action of banning all children, but rather having a much more strict policy about misbehaving children…

According to the restaurant owner, it was the constant complaining by his customers about misbehaving children that made him consider the ban on children under 6. If I’m the owner and the complaining is becoming more and more frequent, then sometimes you have to make a decision such as he made.

Flip your theory, if parents know that a certain establishment is not family friendly, why don’t they find a different restaurant? Why should other customers bear the burden of having to be speak to parents that can’t discipline their children properly in a restaurant setting, or to the management?

 

[Alix1912]

Did you talk to the parents on any of these occasions? Or management? If you know these establishments are frequented by families, why don’t you either find a different restaurant or go at less kid-friendly times (later evenings during the school week, for example)? I’m not trying to see a person should have to put up with these things - it is a lot. But kids are not wild animals. Address the problems with the parents, or the business owner/manager who isn’t taking appropriate action. Most children are well behaved, or are disciplined when they aren’t. Let’s not take the extreme action of banning all children, but rather having a much more strict policy about misbehaving children…

I think we have all mistken being polite for being pushovers. If someone or their kid is out of line we should speak up. I did recently, at the local museum, when a mom had let her two young kids climb into one of the dioramas. I asked her to please take them out, she ignored me and kept messing with her Iphone, so I went and got security. I figured my admission pays for the maintenance on those dioramas and I’d like to keep the admission cheap. If as a society we demand better behavior from people, they will rise to the occasion.

 

[Allegra]

Did you talk to the parents on any of these occasions? Or management? If you know these establishments are frequented by families, why don’t you either find a different restaurant or go at less kid-friendly times (later evenings during the school week, for example)? I’m not trying to see a person should have to put up with these things - it is a lot. But kids are not wild animals. Address the problems with the parents, or the business owner/manager who isn’t taking appropriate action. Most children are well behaved, or are disciplined when they aren’t. Let’s not take the extreme action of banning all children, but rather having a much more strict policy about misbehaving children…

I don’t want to spend my evening talking to parents who let their children rifle through other people’s purses. Besides, they were drunk. Come to think of it, so were “hat kid’s” parents. Maybe there should be a law against parenting under the influence. As far as changing where I go, the vast majority of these incidents occured at a place where kids don’t usually go or when it was past most kids bed time. (Actually, that may be why they were acting that way in the first place.) You can’t guarentee that there won’t be horrible parents anywhere you go. (Unless, of course, you go to a place where kids are banned.)

Actually, for the most part, I don’t have a problem with kids. I actually like kids. People pay me to teach their kids, so I spend alot of time around them. I’m pretty adept at making kids act like people, so I sort of expect other people to do the same. Even so, I tend to have a higher tolerance for noise than most others.

I’m only pointing out that I have, in fact, been troubled by other people’s kids in public to the extent that I have left the establishment. I can totally see a market for kid-free business. I would totally shop a kid-free grocery store! I’m certainly not saying that children should be banned from public like cigarettes. I’m saying that if a business owner wants to market his business to those who don’t want to deal with the inconvenience of other people’s progeny, what’s wrong with that?

 

[Allegra]

I think we have all mistken being polite for being pushovers. If someone or their kid is out of line we should speak up. I did recently, at the local museum, when a mom had let her two young kids climb into one of the dioramas. I asked her to please take them out, she ignored me and kept messing with her Iphone, so I went and got security. I figured my admission pays for the maintenance on those dioramas and I’d like to keep the admission cheap. If as a society we demand better behavior from people, they will rise to the occasion.

Can you explain to me why I should spend even one moment of my precious recreational time at the impossible task of correcting other people’s parenting skills? Frankly, I think it highly unlikely that any of them will rise to the occasion. I think it’s more likely they will get mad and start a fight. I suppose if such a situation arose, I would also speak to the security officer, however, the result would probably be that the family would get thrown out and ma would go home and complain about how horrible the museum is to people with children. I certainly doubt that if she didn’t think it was wrong for her kids to climb on a museum exhibit in the first place, the security guard would ever be able to persuade her otherwise.

 

[Allegra]

I would say they are rare. I have never seen anything remotely like that. So would also say it is okay to ban the mentally handicapped because of rare instances where they cause a similar disruption?

I highly doubt a business that publicly bans the mentally handicapped would stay in business for more than one day, but if a mentally handicapped person did in fact go around pulling on people’s tableclothes and going through their purses, I would think the management would have no choice but to remove that person. The truth is that mentally handicapped people do not do those things nor would they be allowed to do those things by their assistants if they were so disabled that they could not restrain themselves. If any adult did those things, they would be arrested and held accountable. Children are not held accountable for such actions (at least from a legal standpoint) and some parents allow them to behave in such a way with complete disregard for the right of others around them. Therefore, some businesses have decided to protect their patrons by banning children. I still don’t see the problem.

 

[pnewton]

I’m saying that if a business owner wants to market his business to those who don’t want to deal with the inconvenience of other people’s progeny, what’s wrong with that?

I do not think there is any right or wrong in this issue at all. Ilike the sign idea, targeting behavior, not age. After all, most children are not unruly and some adults are.

 

[Allegra]

I do not think there is any right or wrong in this issue at all. Ilike the sign idea, targeting behavior, not age. After all, most children are not unruly and some adults are.

I agree that the problem could easily be solved that way. However, the owner of this establishment wants to market his place as kid-free. He is trying to ensure the business of customers who want to know that they can count on their evening not being disrupted by kids. (Whether or not it will be disrupted by something else remains to be seen.) I don’t why it is wrong to solve the problem in that way either, especially if the place sees an increase in business.

 

[The_Old_Medic]

I love to eat out, but my wife and i rarely do because far too many parents refuse to control the behavior of their children. Even in the nicest restaurants, expensive restaurants, some parents allow their children to run around freely, to scream, throw things, act like undisciplined animals and generally make it very uncomfortable for other customers.

I do NOT blame the children for this, I blame the parents. They do not have any form of discipline, they do not teach basic manners, and they do not make any attempt to control their children.

I love kids. I have two daughters that I partially raised as a single parent, and I have three pre-teen and teen grandsons. My children were taught to behave properly in public, to use a napkin, to never yell, etc., etc. In stores, we had a “hands behind your back” policy, and my girls never broke anything. They were allowed to look, but NOT to touch. They were required to stay seated at a table, and to never leave without permission.

They could ask for something in a store, in a normal tone, one time. Asking a second time for the same item resulted in no chance of that item being purchased (even if it was something needed). No begging, no whining, and above all NO ACTING OUT was allowed.

My grandsons are being raised exactly the same way. They open doors for ladies (and even for those women who are NOT “Ladies”), they call their elders Mr. and Mrs., they use excellent table manners, etc.

If one of my children had misbehaved (and it did happen occasionally), they were immediately escorted out. No taking their food in a “doggy bag”, it was leave IMMEDIATELY! This even happened one time at Disneyland, one of them began begging for something in a loud voice, and we left, and left the park.

If parents simply refuse to accept mis-behavior, there would be no problem. Unfortunately, far too many parents not only accept such behavior, they actually encourage it. The children are rewarded for acting out.

Since so many refuse to properly train their children, I support the movement to bar children. Unfortunately, you can not bar the parents, who SHOULD be the ones to be punished.