Is a ban on children discrimination? Liberal hypocricy?

  • Thread starter Thread starter pnewton
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I think it’s interesting there’s a whole hotel chain that only serves married couples, and no one seems to care about it. If you have no trouble with the idea of hotels refusing to serve single people, why all the uproar if another place refuses to serve children? Or is marriage with children the be-all and end-all of the universe?

I think some of this could be resolved with simple consideration on the part of parents–I’ve seen people park their (unfolded) strollers nearly crosswise in the aisle of a bus, making it almost impossible for anyone else to move. Parents let their kids run wild through other people’s houses, breaking things and opening doors to bedrooms where people are trying to change clothes. If parents would simply think of how their actions (or lack thereof), and their chilren’s actions, are affecting others, I think a great deal of problems could be resolved.
 
Sure I’ve overstated it and no one posting here is calling for a ban on children in public-- yet. But these are the first steps. Just in this thread we’ve gone from people wanting small children banned from “nice” restaurants to people wanting **all **children banned from not just “nice” restaurants but hotels, grocery stores have been suggested and even a movie theatre by implication. The list will grow. I simply think it is a sad commentary on the state of our society. Children used to be a blessing and people liked to be around children. Today children seem to be seen as a burden and increasingly more and more people want to get away from children–including, sadly, the children’s own parents. I am amazed by the number of my childrens school mates who’s parents take an annual vacation without their children. I can hear the calls already–lets make this area of the city a “children free zone” an area where I can shop and eat and hang out without the threat of seeing a child – the mere sight of which will somehow ruin my day. Maybe those children who misbehave would behave better if the adults in their life and society weren’t fleeing from them or ignoring them or shoving them off to “child friendly” places by which I gather you mean places where they can misbehave–which shouldn’t be allowed anywhere. Children can sit still at the table without fussing–it is a matter of training and expectation.

And please lets stop with all the “a business should have a right to cater to who ever they want to” talk. Those saying this seem resistant to the idea that restaurants should be able to exclude african americans, catholics, jews, homosexuals etc. claiming that somehow that’s just unreasonable. Why? What if the owner gets complaints? That was the original justification given for banning children–the owner had complaints. Guess what I bet the owner gets complaints about his food and service–all restaurants do no matter how good they are–yet they don’t stop serving food and providing service–and lets be honest lousy service or a bad meal ruin the outing a lot more than a fussy child at the next table. Complaints come with running a business and all businesses get them. Customers will not stop patronizing the establishment if they have a reasonable policy for dealing with problems–like unruly customers additionally a well stated policy will minimize those problems–and patrons will appreciate that.

No one has explained how the well behaved child sitting at the table next to you ruins your experience? How does it bother you? Why does it bother you?

Finally what you experienced at your local version of Hooters was not a child problem but a parent problem–parents who took their children to the type of place that no adult should patronize let alone where a parent should take their children --parents who by your account ignored their children–and you’re blaming the children for this–as if it is a child problem. Further you describe the place as “loud and crowed” like that was a reason the ladies shouldn’t have brought their children there saying the kids did “pretty well” despite that fact. If the place is already “loud and crowed” how could a couple of kids being “fussy” be what ruins the expenence. It would seem a loud and crowed place would be just the place for children–it is the “Hooters” aspect that makes the place unsuitable for children–in my opinion–though in this society I seem to be in the minority on that.

I am not a big “family and kids” restaurant type of person and if my kids can behave I don’t see why they shouldn’t be able to eat out with us and if they behave I don’t see how they ruin your experience or why it should bother you that they are there.

Scoff and attack away:)

Peace,
Mark
No one is attacking you, Mark. The fact that people see things differently than you do does not constitute an attack.

I disagree with you that in some far off golden age, all people loved to be around other people’s children all the time. I don’t think that is realistic at all. I’m pretty sure that even in the “good old days” there were obnoxious children, there were horrible parents, there were people that just disliked children in general, there were married couples that liked to get away and go out for dinner, and there were baby-sitters available for such occasions. There were probably even places that banned children, especially after a certain hour.

The fact that people would enjoy a kid-free evening doesn’t make them horrible people or even mean they hate children.

I think you misinterpreted my statements earlier. I NEVER blame children under six for their behavior. If they are acting up, it is either because they have not been discipline, or because the situation their parents have put them in is inappropriate for children. That is my point. Why would anyone drag a small child into a place where they aren’t wanted? Why don’t patronize a place that is family-oriented? Then the people who don’t want to be around kids for whatever reason are happy, the kids are comfortable and happy, and the business owners are happy because they are making money.
 
I’m not really sure how you got the “we’ve always done it this way” argument out of my statements. I was just pointing out the “slippery slope” argument stating if we ban children we can use the same logic to ban someone else probably wouldn’t hold up in court. The courts treat children differently than adults.
I see what you are saying. I was thinking more in terms of consistent and inconsistent, not what is legal precedent.
 
Banning children is legally different than banning based on race, gender, disability, creed, etc. There is a long history in our legal system that it is ok to treat children different than adults and it is not at all the same as excluding the blacks, the disable or the religious. A very basic explanation for this (although not the only one) is the equal protection of laws based those that are legally similarly situated. A child is not similarly situated legally to a mentally impaired adult.

So the claim that if you allow them to ban children they can ban the Jews is inaccurate under our legal system.

Just had to point that out.
Shouldn’t it be pointed out that our nation at one point had a long history of just such discrimination regarding race, gender, creed etc.? There were long fights and struggles to acheive that “equal protection under the law”. It might be said we have had a longer history of just such discrimination than of nondiscrimination. A long history of different treatment doesn’t necessarily make it right. The laws we have regarding children are to protect children–restaurant bans (aside from bars & strip clubs) do no such thing.

Peace,
Mark
 
No one is attacking you, Mark. The fact that people see things differently than you do does not constitute an attack.

I disagree with you that in some far off golden age, all people loved to be around other people’s children all the time. I don’t think that is realistic at all. I’m pretty sure that even in the “good old days” there were obnoxious children, there were horrible parents, there were people that just disliked children in general, there were married couples that liked to get away and go out for dinner, and there were baby-sitters available for such occasions. There were probably even places that banned children, especially after a certain hour.

The fact that people would enjoy a kid-free evening doesn’t make them horrible people or even mean they hate children.

I think you misinterpreted my statements earlier. I NEVER blame children under six for their behavior. If they are acting up, it is either because they have not been discipline, or because the situation their parents have put them in is inappropriate for children. That is my point. Why would anyone drag a small child into a place where they aren’t wanted? Why don’t patronize a place that is family-oriented? Then the people who don’t want to be around kids for whatever reason are happy, the kids are comfortable and happy, and the business owners are happy because they are making money.
I never felt anyone was attacking me–I was simply giving them freedom to do so in response to my comments. I’ve enjoy the back and forth. As I have said many times and asked but have never received a response–If my children behave and sit quietly at the table next to you–how are they bothering you or ruining your evening? Just their very presence bothers you? Thats what I don’t understand. Why should they be penalized just because some children misbehave?

Here are my final thoughts on the matter:

Christ called us to love as he loved us.

All of us in the eyes of God are much worse than these “misbehaving” children that so many complain about today. Each of us fusses, complains, throws tantrums and we continually sin by commission and omission. Just look at all the complaints about Church teaching in the various forums–especially around sexual issues. Much of this is just fussing and complaining because we don’t like this or that teaching and want to live differently. But God loves us and shows us his mercy. He calls us to repent and gives us the opportunity. He is loving and patient with us. He call us even when we are rebellious, unrepentant and obstinate. He waits and longs like the father in the story of the prodigal son.

We are called to love as Christ loved us. For those complaining about children in restaurants, movie theatres, grocery stores, airplains, etc. Are you loving your neighbor as Christ loves you? Are you concerned about the child and the parent? Do you offer up a prayer for them and their situation (whatever it might be)? Do you wonder what their situation is–or do you just assume the worst–that they’re terrible parents taking their kids out selfishly, terrible parents who don’t discipline their children, etc.? Yet this attitude of “they’re ruining my evening” shows a focus on self and how everything around us affects us. It’s all about us and not others and that is selfishness on our part.

Maybe that baby crying on the plane is on a connecting flight after a long and unexpected delay at the airport as the family flies accross the country for the funeral of the babys grandmother. Maybe the mother is distracted with greif from the loss of her mother. We don’t know. But for many they don’t see God’s creation in the baby, they don’t offer up a prayer for the baby–they only see a baby ruining their flight. They can only assume the worst.
Maybe that family at the restaurant recieved a last minute call from parents who are on an unexpected one night layerover and who already booked the restaurant and the parents have no time to get a baby sitter.

Anyway my point is we don’t always know the situation, and even if it is a case of terrible and selfish parents, when we respond with anger and let it ruin our evening or our flight we are failing to exhibit the love and patience God shows us and calls on us to show to our neighbor and our focus is not on others but on ourselves.

Shouldn’t we lift our sufferings (and these that we have been discussing, I am sorry to say, are petty sufferings in the big picture) up to God? Shouldn’t we make the best of what we find to be a bad or challenging situation. Shouldn’t we remember that we are like that “misbehaving” child in the eyes of God? I suggest the next time we find ourselves in one of these situations we thank God for the gift of the child and offer up a prayer for the child. That we take our eyes off of ourselves. What did St. James say about suffering? Count it all joy?

Peace,
Mark
 
I could understand a ban in the very upscale restaurants (or places of that ilk) where children really have no place, but generally banning them from businesses is taking it too far I think. Rather than banning them from the start, how about having a very visibly posted policy that states that families with disruptive children will be asked to leave. I find it very annoying when I am out, say at a restaurant or movie, and someone’s child is loud, running around or screaming/crying and the parents do nothing to control the situation. If the manager of that business were to ask the parents to rein in the kid or leave, it would make the other customers very happy I’m sure. I know it would improve my mood.
… and you are by no means alone!

google.co.nz/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=airlines+child+free+survey&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top