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Don_Quixote
Guest
**This is an article which raises many questions.
Who/what am I to believe: scripture or the Catholic church?
What is the truth and is the truth important? **
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Who/what am I to believe: scripture or the Catholic church?
What is the truth and is the truth important? **
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Ghosty
Guest
You should only have to say Catholic, Protestant, or Orthodox. Christian is implied for all of those (well, Orthodox is also used for Orthodox Jews, I suppose).
God bless!
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
He’s not alone in doing so - one of the authors stocked by Jack Chick does exactly that; for a whole book 
IMO, people who write like that don’t think theologically - they see Catholic doctrines as isolated propositions, & instead of seeing how they fit together & illuminate & re-inforce one another, they chuck verses at them, without (it seems) having made any attempt to understand why Catholics don’t see contradictions where they do.The article started with the assumption that one could not be a Christian & a Catholic - not surprisingly, that was its conclusion; a crash course in elementary logic seems to be needed.
What is so strange, is that a lot of these people are Calvinists, & there is plenty of Calvinist systematic theology - so Protestants are perfectly capable of thinking of doctrine organically, as the CC does. Calvin himself is the proof of this ##
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lumendelumine
Guest
As a European, I must say that the Catholic vs. Christian dichotomy seems to be an American speciality.
Here in Europe, basically everyone (including most Protestants) knows that Catholics are Christians! I’d say that 99% of Europeans would be flabbergasted if someone said something like “oh, I’m a Christian, not a Catholic”.
There may of course be Protestants who don’t see “pure” Christians in Catholics. But they’d never deny that they are Christians… (And the few that actually do have probably been heavily influenced by American “imports” like Seventh-Day Adventism, the Baptist movement or Fundamentalism.)
Here in Europe, basically everyone (including most Protestants) knows that Catholics are Christians! I’d say that 99% of Europeans would be flabbergasted if someone said something like “oh, I’m a Christian, not a Catholic”.
There may of course be Protestants who don’t see “pure” Christians in Catholics. But they’d never deny that they are Christians… (And the few that actually do have probably been heavily influenced by American “imports” like Seventh-Day Adventism, the Baptist movement or Fundamentalism.)
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Church_Militant
Guest
No it doesn’t…it’s anti-Catholic propaganda.
Do Catholics profess faith in the saving power of the cross of Christ? Yes we do.
Then where is the issue? Such articles are garbage and Mike Gendron is just another anti-Catholic who works to deceive Catholics and lead them away from our most holy faith.
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Watch this:**
Authority: Sola Scriptura is a new wind of doctrine of men that is less than 500 years old. What does the Bible say? 1st Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
Justification: Sola Fide is a new wind of doctrine of men that is less than 500 years old. What does the Bible say? James 2:26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.
Justification: Further error! What does the Bible say? Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? Rise up, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, invoking his name
Salvation: See the above errors. He cannot provide a statement in context of Catholic teaching that will support his allegation. By cherry-picking as he has done he misrepresents what Catholics teach.
Saints and priests: Here he totally misrepresents Catholic teaching and offers only cherry picked references which will appear to support his allegations. Is this honest? No.
The Lord’s Supper: Why doesn’t he call it what the church has always called it, The Eucharist. The Eucharist IS Scriptural while his assertion as to what Christians supposedly believe is not. It’s not even universally true of non-Catholics.
Condemnations: Again completely misrepresented the Catholic Church, though in one respect he is dead right. Because he has denounced correct Christian teaching and publicly renounced his Catholic faith those anathemas do indeed apply to him.
The fact that he now makes his living by seeking to deceive Catholics out of our most holy faith (most of which his site is dedicated to) puts him in grave opposition to the truth.
I have just shown that he misrepresents Catholic teaching and is neither being honest nor teaching the truth. Is this the practice of a faithful Christian?
Get the facts and decide for yourself.
Mike Gendron tells us that “Christians believe thus and so…” but is he telling the truth? No he’s not as any reading of the ECF will quickly show, as well as an unbiased reading of the New Testament.
So whose version of Christianity is out of whack? It’s sure as vitam aeternam not the Catholic Church’s!
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.
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reneeville
Guest
I don’t believe “Catholic Christian” is an oxymoron.
The author of the piece is a fallen away Catholic who gives the following statement on his website: PRAY FOR HIM
Welcome To Proclaiming The Gospel Ministries with Evangelist Mike Gendron!
Proclaiming The Gospel Ministries was established in 1991 to serve and glorify the Lord Jesus Christ by proclaiming His death and resurrection as God’s only provision whereby sinners can be forgiven, redeemed and justified. Jesus Christ satisfied the righteous justice of God by paying the eternal punishment for sin when he died as man’s substitute. Any person who repents and receives Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior by grace through faith, ceasing to trust in anyone or anything else for salvation, becomes a child of God and receives the gift of eternal life which can never be revoked. Since there are many who proclaim another Jesus and another gospel, we are called to expose spiritual deception so that people will not be deceived about life’s most critical question - “What must I do to be saved?”
As a Roman Catholic for over 30 years, I was taught from the Catechism that salvation was by faith plus baptism, the sacraments, good works, law keeping, the sacrifice of the Mass, indulgences, purgatory and penance. According to God’s word this is another gospel that leaves Catholics with a false hope. Only when Catholics trust the Lord Jesus Christ as their all-sufficient savior will they know they are saved completely and forever! pro-gospel.org/
The author of the piece is a fallen away Catholic who gives the following statement on his website: PRAY FOR HIM
Welcome To Proclaiming The Gospel Ministries with Evangelist Mike Gendron!
Proclaiming The Gospel Ministries was established in 1991 to serve and glorify the Lord Jesus Christ by proclaiming His death and resurrection as God’s only provision whereby sinners can be forgiven, redeemed and justified. Jesus Christ satisfied the righteous justice of God by paying the eternal punishment for sin when he died as man’s substitute. Any person who repents and receives Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior by grace through faith, ceasing to trust in anyone or anything else for salvation, becomes a child of God and receives the gift of eternal life which can never be revoked. Since there are many who proclaim another Jesus and another gospel, we are called to expose spiritual deception so that people will not be deceived about life’s most critical question - “What must I do to be saved?”
As a Roman Catholic for over 30 years, I was taught from the Catechism that salvation was by faith plus baptism, the sacraments, good works, law keeping, the sacrifice of the Mass, indulgences, purgatory and penance. According to God’s word this is another gospel that leaves Catholics with a false hope. Only when Catholics trust the Lord Jesus Christ as their all-sufficient savior will they know they are saved completely and forever! pro-gospel.org/
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guanophore
Guest
Me too, but there is another that bugs me even worse; “I am not Christian, I am Catholic”. I hear that one a lot.
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mark_a
Guest
bummer
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MarcoPolo
Guest
I found Mike Gendron’s talk “What Catholics Don’t Know” as a free MP3.
I found myself quite unsatisfied with his responses to Catholic teachings because he doesn’t address them! He sets up a this-is-what-Catholics-believe…he doesn’t give the Catholic argument at all, nor Scripture verses that Catholics cite…and basically says Catholics are headed for hell. Just listen to the MP3 to believe it!
After I listened a while…his name rang a bell. He is a man with whom I exchanged emails earlier this month on the issue of Sola Scriptura!
I asked him to explain a few Bible passages, including what does he consider the significance of the decision-making body lead by Peter in Acts 15:6-24.
He did not address them and instead challenged me with 2 other passages and if I checked my salvation against Scripture.
I responded to both passages, and asked him again to respond to mine, and that we could talk about salvation separately.
He did not respond to my passages again, and said he wanted to talk about salvation instead.
I told him I would not until we addressed my original questions on Sola Scriptura.
He then grew angry and said he had no time to discuss with me if God was not my ultimate authority on faith and withdrew from the conversation.
His understanding of Christ’s teaching is among the poorest I’ve seen among public figures. Him being a Catholic for over 30 years tells me his heart is either really hard, or his Catholic influences have been quite poor.
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Le_Cracquere
Guest
Interesting, though depressing. However, it casts a little light on why the question of the thread title can even be asked: Gendron’s not an isolated case: one meets people who’ve self-identified as Catholics, and been so identified by others, for decades on end, and walk away knowing apparently zilch about Christianity, Catholic or otherwise.
An outside observer who meets such people could maybe be forgiven for wondering: what does being Catholic count for, anyway? And perhaps one can even cut the likes of Gendron a little slack: if I’d been been raised ostensibly Catholic, but with Gendron’s apparent level of ignorance about Christ or the Church, I might end up resentful too, and it might lead me to draw certain conclusions about Catholicism.
So, the moral of Gendron’s story, and the solution to making the thread’s topic go away, might be this: catechesis not only counts, it should be central. I’ve heard several Catholics on this forum breezily dismiss knowledge-related scandals like this as an issue of “poor catechesis,” as if that explained the problem instead of explaining it away. Such insouciance is a recipe for more Mike Gendrons.
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BlestOne
Guest
Once a co-worker told me he was a “Christian” when I asked what denomination he was. By the way he said it, it was obvious he didn’t believe Catholics were Christians. When I told him Catholics were Christians too, he looked like he was going to have a mental meltdown.
I too have exchanged emails with Mike and Jane Gendron. It was all posted here on CA but we probably lost it in the great crash. If you stick to your guns and make them stay on topic they get bored very quickly and stop emailing you back. They don’t really want the truth, they want the truth according to them…which is not truth at all.
One thing I have noticed is that folks like these are obsessed with rules. They want to know that if they do x,y, and z they will go to heaven. It’s like a grocery list, once they check it off, it’s done forever. But we all know that grocery lists are repetitive. We need to replenish our supplies often to sustain life don’t we?
This leads to how they look at our doctrine and beliefs too. When they see reference to reconciliation in our CCC, They see it as another rule or item on the list. So then they think, so if I want to indulge in (insert any sin here), all I have to do is go tell a priest afterwards. Its like a consequence not a sacramental to bring grace in our repentance. Since they see things this way, they expect that everyone sees it that way too, thus, it is wrong because…
I too have exchanged emails with Mike and Jane Gendron. It was all posted here on CA but we probably lost it in the great crash. If you stick to your guns and make them stay on topic they get bored very quickly and stop emailing you back. They don’t really want the truth, they want the truth according to them…which is not truth at all.
One thing I have noticed is that folks like these are obsessed with rules. They want to know that if they do x,y, and z they will go to heaven. It’s like a grocery list, once they check it off, it’s done forever. But we all know that grocery lists are repetitive. We need to replenish our supplies often to sustain life don’t we?
This leads to how they look at our doctrine and beliefs too. When they see reference to reconciliation in our CCC, They see it as another rule or item on the list. So then they think, so if I want to indulge in (insert any sin here), all I have to do is go tell a priest afterwards. Its like a consequence not a sacramental to bring grace in our repentance. Since they see things this way, they expect that everyone sees it that way too, thus, it is wrong because…
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MarcoPolo
Guest
I hear you there. The irony of Gendron bailing in the face of a simple question is that in the talk I mentioned, he made it clear that it is his duty to reach out to Catholics to lead them to the truth.
While I did acknowledge that Gendron’s animosity toward Catholics could be from poor Catholic influences, I would have to put the bulk of it on the side of him having a hard heart. The number of fallacies of argument he uses are numerous. He picks and chooses contextless quotes from Popes and others. I could go on with specifics. So I can’t absolve him of too much when, after leaving the Catholic Church, he proceeded with a campaign of illogic.
He did not want to discuss Sola Scriptura with me, but only salvation. He has a whole page on his website dedicated to Sola Scriptura, but no apparent capacity to defend it.
These are the signs of someone who walks in bad faith.
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teajay
Guest
I’ve seen the work Mike Gendron before and he essentially caters to a thin fringe of anti-intellectual, historically (and scientifically) illiterate Protestant fundamentalists.
I have a friend who lacks the critical judgement to discern anti-Catholic propaganda from fair and honest presentations of competing views. He also reads Jack Chick comic books and considers Jacob Prasch some kind of scholar.
I think that for anyone who ‘buys’ these kinds of arguments, forming flawed views of the Catholic Church is the least of their worries. I’m more concerned that they run into even more sinister groups with even more effective rhetoric and perhaps be convinced to do illegal or dishonest things.
I have a friend who lacks the critical judgement to discern anti-Catholic propaganda from fair and honest presentations of competing views. He also reads Jack Chick comic books and considers Jacob Prasch some kind of scholar.
I think that for anyone who ‘buys’ these kinds of arguments, forming flawed views of the Catholic Church is the least of their worries. I’m more concerned that they run into even more sinister groups with even more effective rhetoric and perhaps be convinced to do illegal or dishonest things.
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MarcoPolo
Guest
Interesting…can you tell more about the scientific illiteracy? You can send me a private message if it will stray from the thread.
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