Is a lie ever justified?

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This is an odd situation. My elderly dog is due for a rabies vaccine which is needed to renew his dog license. The dog ended up sick after his last rabies shot. After some research, it does not seem safe to vaccinate this dog because of a previous reaction and his age. The vet will not give me an exemption letter and wants to give the shot and another shot of an anti-inflammatory and then watch to see the dogs reaction. I can choose not to give the vaccine, but then I would have to put the dog is deceased on his license renewal. I really dont want to lie, but I also dont want to risk my almost 14year old dogs life by watching to see what happens after the shot. Is a lie justified in this situation or is it still a sin?
 
I don’t think a lie is justified in this case.

What happens if you simply fail to return the dog’s license registration? Will your local licensing agency come knocking on your door?

I don’t recommend breaking laws but at some point in the lives of my dogs I have simply stopped sending in the registration paperwork. By the time anyone contacted me the dogs actually did die.

What is the overall state of health for this dog?
 
My dogs health is basically good. I would not be surprised, maybe just wishful thinking, to have him around another year or possibly two.

Not sending back the registration is pretty much the same thing as saying the dog is dead. So is that a justified lie? I will probably get a phone call about the dog if I dont respond one way or another. This happened with another dog that actually did die and I think I just didnt return the registration, so they called to see what was going on. And they actually did knock on my door before I had registered the dogs to get people that were not registering their animals.

I just don`t want to risk my dog because of this. I have heard of healthy dogs dying from these shots that vets thought were safe to give.
 
A lie is never justified, for one may never do evil that good may come out of it.

Find a new vet.
 
This is an odd situation. My elderly dog is due for a rabies vaccine which is needed to renew his dog license. The dog ended up sick after his last rabies shot. After some research, it does not seem safe to vaccinate this dog because of a previous reaction and his age. The vet will not give me an exemption letter and wants to give the shot and another shot of an anti-inflammatory and then watch to see the dogs reaction. I can choose not to give the vaccine, but then I would have to put the dog is deceased on his license renewal. I really dont want to lie, but I also dont want to risk my almost 14year old dogs life by watching to see what happens after the shot. Is a lie justified in this situation or is it still a sin?
CCC 2482 “A lie consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving.” The Lord denounces lying as the work of the devil: “You are of your father the devil, . . . there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.”

CCC 2483 Lying is the most direct offense against the truth. To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error. By injuring man’s relation to truth and to his neighbor, a lie offends against the fundamental relation of man and of his word to the Lord.

CCC 2484 The gravity of a lie is measured against the nature of the truth it deforms, the circumstances, the intentions of the one who lies, and the harm suffered by its victims. If a lie in itself only constitutes a venial sin, it becomes mortal when it does grave injury to the virtues of justice and charity.

CCC 2485 By its very nature, lying is to be condemned. It is a profanation of speech, whereas the purpose of speech is to communicate known truth to others. The deliberate intention of leading a neighbor into error by saying things contrary to the truth constitutes a failure in justice and charity. The culpability is greater when the intention of deceiving entails the risk of deadly consequences for those who are led astray.

CCC 2486 Since it violates the virtue of truthfulness, a lie does real violence to another. It affects his ability to know, which is a condition of every judgment and decision. It contains the seed of discord and all consequent evils. Lying is destructive of society; it undermines trust among men and tears apart the fabric of social relationships.
 
PART 1 of 3

I posted a fairly long entry on another Catholic message board, but it seemed to generate
few replies. It concerned the age old question of whether it was justifiable to tell a lie to save lives. The modern version usually involves Nazis coming to the door looking for Jews. The classical answer seems to unequivocally confirm that, yes, we must not deceive the Nazis under any circumstances. Truth is the basis of order and virtue in society and that common good must never be undermined.

However, in actual practice, large numbers of Catholic clergy did provide false identity papers as well as counterfeit baptismal certificates to Jews to save their lives in WWII. In fact, they saved about 800,000 of them all over Nazi occupied Europe. According to classical moral theology, providing such false identification would seem to be formal cooperation in moral evil, because the only purpose they could have had was to deceive
Nazis intent on mass murder. Surely, it would be hard to find a more blameless or worthy cause. But still it’s wrong because, apparently, the Nazi has the same right to not be deceived as does any God fearing citizen.

This conclusion has a surprising number of consequences for Catholics wishing to engage
in the armed forces, police work, media careers and a whole range of other occupations.
(See reprint of the letter below.)

Speaking of work and occupations, Armchair ethics are all very nice but not so nice when they meet the real world. And it’s in such a case I find a close friend in.

He contacted a very serious illness when his career was taking off almost 20 years ago, and due a lot of medical misdiagnosis and other bungling lost out on his medical insurance coverage. 20 years later and several hundred thousand dollars comprising all of his savings and inheritance, all his friends, his family, his credit rating are gone. Too sick to go to the missions because he needs medical equipment to live, he needs some menial job to survive and avoid skid row - where he is too frail to survive for long anyway. There are no government programs or charities that will provide for medical costs or pay a living wage. At least not until the age of 65, and he’ll never make it that far. And so it comes down to the law of the jungle: work or starve; sink or swim.
Yes, there are supposed to be agencies to take care of such things; nevertheless, some individuals fall through the bizarre maze of bureaucratic criteria into the cracks.

The only chance this person has is if someone gives him some sort of a job that pays at least a minimum wage. All the talk about Catholics being brothers and part of the Mystical Body isn’t going to circumvent the fact that no employer, Catholic or other won’t hire him with his medical and employment history. They’ll simply wish him, “good luck in his continued search”…or whatever. It would be great, given all the Catholics who are employers out there, if one of them one could be approached and the situation explained and my friend would be given some job he could handle. But circumstances prevent that. In fact, his Pastor made a special personal appeal at a Sunday Mass for a place for him to rent, but that, too, generated no responses. Thus, his only option if he wants a job is to have a “viable” resume that displays a reasonable work history. And he would need someone to “cover for him” in terms of a job reference. But there we go again, more formal cooperation in moral evil.

The point is this: lacking connections, without a decent resume, the fellow will simply not get a job. And without that, he will probably either die or waste away emotionally and psychologically. It’s just like the situation where a Jewish person needed false identity papers to preserve him from being picked up and shipped off to Auscwitz. (Actually, I know a 93 year old Jewish guy who escaped from there only to be picked up by Stalin’s henchmen. Miraculosly, he survived for another 3 years, but you can see he’s deeply damaged inside.)

Such is the tyranny of Capital (Mammon’s) efficiency, that all those who are judged inefficient, lame or risky must be eliminated from the economy. Capital (those with money) want Aryans, not the outcast failures. They must be excluded, gotten rid of, banished from the labour pool. And a good resume is the primary Aryan document attesting you are not a defective specimen to be eliminated. Otherwise, without that
passport, Capital will ensure you’ll never work again. Sometimes, moral theology can seem not very moral.

Anyhow, it’s like the case of the parable of the wasteful but shrewd steward in Luke 16:1-13. He was about to be fired but wasn’t able to do physical labour and was too proud to beg. As a result, in order to ingratiate himself to his circle of acquaintances, he told his employer’s creditors to falsify their invoices. That way they might take him into their homes
after he was fired. Our Lord praises his actions as being wise at least on a worldy level and castigates His followers for not demonstrating a similar shrewdness with the spiritual gifts they’ve been given and are wasting.

Various exegesis stipulate that Our Lord couldn’t have been condoning dishonesty; however, on at least a secular plane, his actions were deemed wise by Our Lord. Other exegetes postulate in those days, it was understood the steward was to receive a commission off the top. Since that was what likely was being subtracted from the bills they claim there would have been no actual deception anyway. But it’s difficult to see how such could have been the case as it would then have been pointless for the creditors to revise their invoices. The master would already have been aware of the commission due
him. And if it did involve a commission coming off the top, the Steward, about to be fired, would have needed the money right away and not have been able to relinquish it to the creditors.
 
PART 2 of 3

There’s a book by Sally M. Rogow, “They Must Not Be Forgotten,” detailing the efforts of bishops, priests and nuns in Nazi occupied countries across Europe in WWII with respect to their heroic efforts at saving somewhere between 700,000 and 850,000 Jewish lives. Catholic clergy hid Jews in homes, monastaries and convents and arranged secret escape plans.

Many, many, false baptismal certificates were provided as well as false identities in case they were stopped. I don’t have the book in front of me but I believe that certain nuns denied they were hiding Jews to SS who came to the convents looking for them. Now it seems to me that, as per Section 2483 of the CCC, that this amounts to lying. Also, providing false identity documents should be a violation of the principle of double effect of Catholic Classical Theology. In that principle, the intended good to be acheived must outweigh the unintended evil effects. Well, it sure does. After all, lying to Satanic einsatzcommandos intent on genocide hardly compares to saving the lives of a race of people.

Nevertheless, the principle also requires the intended good must proceed directly from the action itself and not from any evil effect (which deliberate deception apparently is). Otherwise, we are doing evil so that good may result from it. So, in other words, one can’t tell a white lie to save the entire human race. That’s a pretty hard saying, but it’s been what everyone from Augustine to Aquinas to John Paul II in Veritatis Splendour has been asserting. Many modern Thomist based moral theologans, such as Boyle, Finnis, May and Grisez have been reaffirming this. Grisez, (l’lI have to check the quotation but I think it’s in Volume 3 of “The Way of the Lord Jesus; Difficult Moral Cases” ) says that if the Gestapo comes to the door looking for Jews, one has a duty to inform them. And then one could tell the Gestapo, “shoot me too after you get them.” Admittedly, the 2nd piece of advice would probably be redundant. (Yes, I know, about the suggestions of using broad as opposed to strict mental reservations, as well as the option of remaining silent; however, only someone who spent their whole life in an insulated university classroom engaging in armchair debates would be absurd enough to think that was feasible.) The teaching is basically that: never does their arise a justifiable choice of picking the lesser of 2 evils. No evil of any kind may be chosen.

However, one might conversely conclude that informing the SS you’ve got Jews hidden behind the false wall is proximate mediate cooperation in moral evil; something which is somethimes justified and tolerated for sufficiently weighty reasons. But it’s hard to see how that would apply here. Sure, you don’t want the Jews to be found but, if you don’t find a way of deceiving the Nazis, you’ll be providing direct information leading to their murder. No, you don’t want that result, but even if you keep silent, or start talking in strange evasive language, No, Obengruppenfuhrer, I haven’t seen any Jews today] the SS will figure it out fast!

Similarly, one would suppose if a Jew is stopped by the SS, he would have to identify himself as such if asked what his nationality was. And he wouldn’t be able to morally use his false identity papers either. That would be lying. After all, if it’s forbidden to “fudge” your resume to get a minimum wage job at MacDonald’s, would it not also be wrong to present false documents, even if it’s to save your life? Clearly it’s a serious sin for a Catholic to deny their Faith. But is it not also a serious sin to attest to your belief in Christ, when you have none? That’s what a false baptismal certificate does. And if so, would it not be formal cooperation in moral evil for the Church to knowingly issue a false one because the purpose (formal object) of such a document could only be to deceive.

If one extends the casuistry, then all sorts of occupations and duties are impossible for a Catholic. You couldn’t be a war spy, much less a double agent because that would be deceptive. And if you were, you’d have to own up to it right away. You couldn’t be an undercover cop, chasing drug cartel mobsters because that would be deceiving them. After all, they have a right to the truth just as much as anyone else, or al least the right not to be deceived. Detectives using false identities on computer chat rooms to track down pedophiles would be deceiving them. Ostensiby, serial pedophiles have the same right not to be deceived as anyone else. Huge battles in war have been won through one side intercepting and decrypting enemy codes, as did the Allies with the German enigma machines of WWII. The Allies broadcasted false information on upcoming bogus attacks, whereas the real ones took place where the Germans were unprepared. But this is a form of deliberate deception. Even if it’s against a heinous Satanically ruled enemy, does a state of war, even the most just one, allow lying? Should we be obliged to sacrifice extra soldiers, submarines and other warships in order to avoid deceiving the enemy?
 
PART 3 of 3

And so it would appear if one takes this principle as absolute, then a commandant at Treblinka, a serial pedophile, a cartel drug lord would all seem have the same right, if not to the truth, then at least the same right not to be deceived as any well intentioned listener. The 2 are obviously not the same, as the latter is a proscription which admits of no exceptions. However, in countless actual situations like those above, the consequences may be identical. For every right there exisits a corresponding duty. A criminal has the right not to be deceived; therefore we have a corresponding duty not to deceive them. He may not have a positive right to the truth; nevertheless, all they have to do is ask, and whoever, the other party is, or whatever state given authority they may be vested with, we will not be allowed to deceive them. Hence, the drug pusher merely has to ask the undercover cop if he really is a policeman, and the cop, will morally will have no viable self preservation defense at his disposal other than silence or evasive language which is tantamount to a dead giveaway.

Part of the problem of CCC 2483 was the dropping of the qualifying phrase (from the 1994 to the 1997 edition) that lying was intentionally deceiving someone who had a right to the truth. The qualifying condition had been a problem for centuries and so the Vatican dropped it in their 2nd, 1997 edition. Now everyone had a right, if not to the truth, then at least not to be deceived. Unfortunately, if the criminal had an IQ of at least 67, he could effectively merge the 2 in short order. Other issues like the stance on capital punishment which reflected John Paul II’s views, drastically changed what the Church (including Aquinas) had taught for the first 1960 years. So much so that Ratzinger, after being made Pope, issued a clarification to reduce the confusion created even among conservative theologians. There was some allowable variation on the issues of what constitutes just war and when capital punishment is allowed. But with respect to the definition of lying no such qualification has been reinstated. And so, if this is true, then why did all those priests, nuns and bishops issue false identity papers to the Jewish people. Even if it did save their lives, seemingly was it still not wrong?

Further details on the origins of the contraversy can be seen at
catholicculture.org/commentary/articles.cfm?id=242

Without getting hung up on Nazis coming to the door asking about Jews, it seems strange that little, if any, fuss was made by chaplains in WWII about all the firebombing raids on Dresden and Hamburg in Germany, and Tokyo, Nagoya, Hiroshima and Nagasaki in Japan. Even Winston Churchlll was appalled as per his famous March 28, 1945 letter re Dresden. But what was a Catholic airman supposed to do? You were in a hanger with thousands of other men when the briefing started. You’re in the miidle of the Pacific Ocean and the base commander starts telling you about the 500 lb.incendiary cluster bombs you’re going to drop. You stand up in the midst of 5000 guys and start quoting Thomas Aquinas… it’s just not going to work.
 
But the Catechism has ***more ***to say on the topic:

2488 The right to the communication of the truth is not unconditional. Everyone must conform his life to the Gospel precept of fraternal love. This requires us in concrete situations to judge whether or not it is appropriate to reveal the truth to someone who asks for it.

2489 Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. The good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. The duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it.283
 
I just don`t want to risk my dog because of this. I have heard of healthy dogs dying from these shots that vets thought were safe to give.
Let’s be careful how we put this and not inadvertantly diss veterinarians. That’s not your intention, but I don’t want to have to jump into this thread to defend my profession. 🙂

In any case, there’s a couple concerns here:
  1. Is it moral to not vaccinate your dog against a virus that is a public health concern?
  2. Is it moral to not license your dog (given that rabies vaccination or an exemption is required for licensing)?
  3. Is it moral to subject your dog to a vaccine which, in the case you described, is likely to cause a reaction which could range to mild and insignificant to severe and potentially life-threatening?
My thoughts:
  1. Almost all dogs and cats should be vaccinated against rabies, especially those with exposure potential. Exceptions would be, for example, cats in high-rise apartments in urban settings. Other exceptions would be a history of escalating reaction to a vaccine.
  2. In this situation, not sending in the registration is not, contrary to the OP’s opinion, the same as saying that the dog is dead i.e. lying. People don’t send in registrations all the time; money, “anti-government” sentiment, forgetfulness, etc. are all reasons that are not lying. Now if the OP sent in a letter saying that his dog was deceased, that would be morally wrong.
  3. The answer here lies in trust, and the question is, do you trust your veterinarian? The OP wrote, “After some research…”, which I take to mean surfing the internet to research vaccine reactions. Please don’t take this the wrong way, but any fool can post anything on the internet and sound authoritative (including yours truly 😃 PM me though, and I’ll give you my professional license information to verify my credentials as a veterinarian. Still, you wouldn’t really be able to verify that I’m who I say I am…see my point?)
Anyway, I’ll bet the OPs internet search found a variety of opinions on vaccine associated side effects, ranging from “the sky is falling, vaccines are evil and cause this and that” to “we should vaccinate every pet for every disease possible”.

The truth is probably somewhere inbetween. Rabies is a “core” vaccination, meaning that it is recommended by an overwhelming majority of veterinarians for all dogs, not to mention that if a dog gets rabies, they die, and an exposed human, without prompt intervention, will die as well.

In any case, this is something that you need to handle between you and your veterinarian. If you trust him or her in recommending vaccination with some prophylaxis such as an antihistamine or possibly a corticosteroid, go ahead and do it. If you don’t trust their recommendation, get a second opinion. Most likely if you do, you’ll need to have your dog examined along with his or her medical records by the second veterinarian.

Expect to pay a reasonabe fee for this service. Any veterinarian worth his or her salt who is called upon for a second opinion would want to review your pet’s health and very possibly consult with the previous veterinarian to see what’s in your pet’s best interest.

And if you do seek a second opinion, be up front with them. Let them know why you oppose vaccinating your pet and the reasons as you understand them for your regular veterinarian refusing to not vaccinate.
 
CCC 2488 & CCC 2489 only deal with the right to remain silent. But that’s of no use or applicability in almost all cases.

Countless thousands of people are still not allowed to obtain employment once anything has significantly interfered with their work record.You have to submit a resume for a job; and you’ll have to answer all the questions of the job interviewer should you gain an interview. Sure, you can remain silent, but you won’t get the job. But you’d better get a job because you’re not going to be able to live on 500 dollars a month welfare for long in this economy without getting some money on the side. But then you’ll have to lie on your tax return and income reporting forms - or die, I suppose. It doesn’t take long to get in moral quicksand once someone goes off the tracks, much less entirely falls through the cracks.

You certainly can’t be a Catholic politician and expect to get elected AND follow your Faith. Abortion is not something your supposed to be silent on. Canada has had a successive series of Catholic Prime Ministers but their statements supporting abortion are a sad joke.

It would also be very difficult or impossible to be a pharmacist, doctor, psychologist or psychiatrist today and adhere to the Catholic Faith without getting into trouble with your professional standards governing body. Ditto for many tax funded elementary and secondary school teaching positions

Ditto for cops and not just the undercover ones. The latter occupation would be gravely immoral because their whole personna would be a false identity involving a continuous series of lies directed at deceiving their criminal targets. Near where I live they have cops who do nothing but chase down serial pedophiles using sting operations over the internet.
The 35 year old 250 Ib. cop poses as a 14 year old girl - or whatever - and tracks him down. They get quite a few that way. But that too would be gravely immoral according to this definition, would it not? I mean the cop, not the pedophile! Good grief!

And joining the military. Forget that! You should see some of the the things those guys have to do in war. You couldn’t even be a chaplain because, you’d have to turn a blind eye to it as they did in WWII.

And as for those hiding Jews, you’d sort of have to ask: “what’s the point of hiding them to begin with?” They were concealed in hundreds of churches, convents, monastaries and Catholic homes. The Gestapo picked up on things real fast. Once they learned all they had to do was ask a Catholic if they were hiding any Jews, they would quickly discover they would invariably get an honest answer back, it would be like (if you’ll forgive the expression) “shooting fish in a barrel.” Just head straight for all the monastaries, convents and churches and round 'em up that way. Makes their “job” a lot easier.

The copy of the Catechism that’s currently on the Vatican website contains the original 1994 version of Section 2483 with the qualifying condition that lying involves deceiving only those who “have a right to the truth.” The subsequent second (1997) edition drops the qualifier to agree with St. Augustine.
 
This forum is very disappointing. You try to discuss fundamental moral issues, and all bloggers want to talk about is lying on their dog licence renewal form. Sad!!
 
Is a lie ever justified?

Maybe to save your life or another’s life.

David in the Old Testament lied by pretending to be a raving lunatic to elude capture.

One of his wives hid him and lied about it to help save him.

So I guess maybe if you’re just trying to save your dog’s life—well maybe. 🤷

I have a cat that my landlord doesn’t know about. But he’s de-clawed and very well litter box trained so I just don’t mention him because I know he won’t do any damage.
 
See what mean. Next, it’ll be someone tormented over their unregistered parakeet.

Is that all that’s on this forum???
 
Since your dog is in good health for an elderly guy, I’d think that your veterinarian’s recommendation is a sound one. As someone else pointed out, you can always get a second veterinary opinion, provided you’re up front about your dog’s history.

I have a neighbor across the street who has eleven Shihtzus (sp?) None of them are licensed, or vaccinated, as far as I know. She was telling me about this several years ago, doesn’t “believe” in vaccination, etc, etc. (She’s a pretty strange ranger in other respects, and I’ve distanced myself because of some of her other eccentricities.) I’ve never seen her or her husband walking them. They just get let out into their fenced yard. The two dogs I had when we moved in here, and the dog I have now, are all vaccinated and licensed. What if one of her nonvaccinated pooches got out and bit my guy? She claims that all of them have “excellent veterinary care.” I haven’t reported her for all these dogs because they all look healthy to me as I’m walking by with my little beagle, but my guess is that she may be a hoarder.

Plus, one thing you might want to consider is the presence of urban wildlife. Any mammal is a potential rabies threat, and that includes stray cats, squirrels, bats, mice and rats, raccoons, stray dogs, and so forth and so on. You can find these even in the inner city! You could be out for a pleasant walk with your dog, or have him tied out, and he could be attacked by one. You’d be in the heartbreaking situation of having to euthanize your dog, or have the poor old guy kenneled by animal control for three weeks to see if he develops symptoms.

That’s the temporal problem with trying to skirt rules, and lying to cover up. Something unforeseen happens, and there we are, with the consequences blowing up in our faces like a real stinkbomb. God “invented” the Ten Commandments not only to keep us pleasing to Him, but to help us simplify our lives and be a whole lot happier in this world because of it. Maybe it would have been helpful if He had added to each one–“it’s a really stupid idea to go ahead and do this anyways, and here’s why…” A priest friend of mine once remarked that he thought that God gave people credit for more intellect than most of us bother to cultivate!

Vaccinating him and giving him an antiinflammatory seems the most reasonable thing to do. But if you still have reservations, I’d get a second veterinary opinion. Veterinary medicine nowadays is a lot more sophisticated than it used to be. You could also contact Cornell University’s School of Veterinary Medicine and get their take on this. They have a website, and do consultations all the time.

Good luck, and I wish you more years of joy with your beloved old dog. Pets really are gifts from God, aren’t they?
 
Yep…Kind of why I gave up on the forum. Ditto for so many other threads. Parakeets, cocker spaniels…Pathetic!
 
Yep…Kind of why I gave up on the forum. Ditto for so many other threads. Parakeets, cocker spaniels…Pathetic!
I would say a small percentage of threads on the forum are about animals.
The forum is rather humongous, and perhaps you are having trouble navigating?

Just the Apologetics Forum has so many threads: forums.catholic-questions.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20

If you click on >Forums> you can see all the forums going:

forums.catholic-questions.org/forumdisplay.php?f=1
 
…Nazis intent on mass murder. Surely, it would be hard to find a more blameless or worthy cause.** But still it’s wrong because, apparently, the Nazi has the same right to not be deceived as does any God fearing citizen. **
Out of curiousity, what do you mean by “apparently”…Is the bold statement your opinion or your understanding of Catholic teaching? I would refute this assertion as I don’t believe murderers have the right to know the truth which would aid them in effecting a murder. We do not have an obligation to tell the truth in this instance and I believe the Vatican was correct in falsifying documents to save lives. No harm was done to the one who “had the right to know” and that is the major reason that God does not want us to lie because lying violates justice and harms our neighbor, neither of which would apply to murderous Nazis. If the Vatican can “lie” to save lives then we can in good conscience learn from her example.
 
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