Is ABC ever permissable

[Tomdstone]

Tom if that ever happened it would only be in very rare cases - prob not the ones you are thinking of which are compassionately treated under private spiritual direction as is already adequately happening - and along the lines previously mentioned.

I don’t think you are correct here. I am under the impression that some E. Orthodox priests will allow a couple to use ABC if they have had four or more children and they are strapped financially.

 

[Steveabrous]

A couple of comments here.

1. the Eastern Orthodox Church does not accept the infallibility of the Roman Catholic Pope. And yet, the RCC is attempting to unite with them.

Yes reunification would be ideal. However it is not possible unless they accept infalibility, since infalibility is considered infalible.

1. There are Catholic theologians who say that the restriction on ABC was not an infallible decision. Where did any Pope say that Humanae Vitae was an infallible decision. In fact, I thought that I read somewhere that Pope Paul VI said something to the effect that the teaching on ABC was not an infallible one - correct me if I am wrong on this, I may not have stated this precisely and I know that we have scholars in semantics here who might be able to give the answer in a more exact semantic detail.

Yes, theologians are divided on whether or not Humanae Vitae is infalible. Until that is decided it remains the Catholic teaching on the matter. Only another Pope, or an Ecuminical council in union with the Pope can change it.

I believe it would be considered infalible until shown otherwise. But thats my opinion.
What is not just my opinion is that it is the official position of the Catholic church.

 

[maryjk]

This was not my condition. This condition was brought up by someone else. Please read post #56.

Actually it was an assumption not a condition.

Because some sspx woman with 15 kids might have a husband who wont stop having sex with her and doesn’t lift a finger to help her. In other words a situation that is extremely rare if exists at all and because of this fictitious situation the Real Catholic church should change its position on birth-control in the real world?

A reasonable assumption since this is a husband that refuses to exhibit any self control.

So, we have a hypothetically real family with 15 children that you saw but you know nothing about. But you have made up this scenario.

To what end? What is the goal here?

You have an answer to your original question. But you seem to keep piling on conditions to see if the answer changes. (Hint: It doesn’t.)

 

[Tomdstone]

Actually it was an assumption not a condition.

A reasonable assumption since this is a husband that refuses to exhibit any self control.

So, we have a hypothetically real family with 15 children that you saw but you know nothing about. But you have made up this scenario.

To what end? What is the goal here?

You have an answer to your original question. But you seem to keep piling on conditions to see if the answer changes. (Hint: It doesn’t.)

However, this is not the case I was proposing, since I was a witness and I saw that the husband did lift a finger to help out his wife.

 

[Corki]

Corki have you seen what the Pope said recently about Catholic 2nd marriages and how the Orthdox Church handles this widespread issue?

So we may have to worry about such things sooner than we think .

But did you **also **read that he is going to consult with a small group of Cardinals first to determine IF there can be any movement?

Ecumenism between Churches is not a time for lay people to debate possible options. There are serious theological issues that divide the Churches. Statements such as the OPs that try make pronouncements about how likely reunification may be are rash.

We “worry about it” IF and ONLY IF there is first movement by the Magisterium that changes how the teaching on marriage is communicated.

 

[Corki]

I don’t think you are correct here. I am under the impression that some E. Orthodox priests will allow a couple to use ABC if they have had four or more children and they are strapped financially.

And my understanding is that this “economia” is only for the use of barrier contraceptives, not the “prescription” you called for in the OP.

 

[Tomdstone]

But did you **also **read that he is going to consult with a small group of Cardinals first to determine IF there can be any movement?

However, if a teaching is carved in stone and cannot be changed, why would they want to set up a committee of cardinals to discuss the question?

 

[Corki]

However, this is not the case I was proposing, since I was a witness and I saw that the husband did lift a finger to help out his wife.

How nice that they let you into their home to observe them 24/7!

 

[Tomdstone]

And my understanding is that this “economia” is only for the use of barrier contraceptives, not the “prescription” you called for in the OP.

No. According to orthodox wiki: “There are those who teach that non-abortifacient contraception is acceptable if it is used with the blessing of one’s spiritual father, and if it is not used simply to avoid having children for purely selfish reasons. The statement on marriage and family from the 10th All-American Council of the Orthodox Church in America follows along these lines, as does “The Bases of the Social Concept of the Russian Orthodox Church,” section XII. 3, which was approved by the 2000 Council of the Russian Orthodox Church.”
Of course, there are some in the E. Orthodox Church who hold views similar or identical to the RCC on ABC.

 

[Tomdstone]

How nice that they let you into their home to observe them 24/7!

I saw the husband at the SSPX chapel nursing a baby with a bottle. So he did lift a finger to help his wife. I was not at their home.
I notice a lot of comments by people trying to workaround the moral problem that I am proposing. It is not a nice situation, but there is a question about the health of the wife and the fact that so many children are bringing a strain on her health and on the financial capability of the family. How much does the Catholic Church require of a woman as far as her marital responsibilities are concerned? Should this be balanced with questions about the health of the mother and her ability to continue as a mother to her family?
People are using sarcasm, insults, ad hominems against me to avoid the difficult question of a possible double effect situation.

 

[Steveabrous]

However, if a teaching is carved in stone and cannot be changed, why would they want to set up a committee of cardinals to discuss the question?

The commitee is to discuss 2nd marriages, not contraception. I don’t see your point here

 

[Tomdstone]

The commitee is to discuss 2nd marriages, not contraception. I don’t see your point here

Why discuss a teaching of the Catholic Church on divorce if it is carved in stone? If they are discussing a teaching of the RCC which differs from the teaching of the EOC in the matter of divorce, is it possible that they could discuss another teaching of the RCC which differs from that of the EOC.

 

[Steveabrous]

I notice a lot of comments by people trying to workaround the moral problem that I am proposing. It is not a nice situation, but there is a question about the health of the wife and the fact that so many children are bringing a strain on her health and on the financial capability of the family.

The “Moral problem” is in your mind only. You have no idea if it actually pertains to this couple or not. And , as I have pointed out many times, it is an unlikely one. How did people live without ABC? You know it’s only been around for about 100 years, right?

The problem with the Catholic churches stance on this exists with you only and your not even catholic. So what business is it of yours? If this couple doesn’t like the churches stance they are free to leave.

Why are you impossing your morality on the Catholic church and this innocent couple.

 

[maryjk]

I saw the husband at the SSPX chapel nursing a baby with a bottle. So he did lift a finger to help his wife. I was not at their home.
I notice a lot of comments by people trying to workaround the moral problem that I am proposing. It is not a nice situation, but there is a question about the health of the wife and the fact that so many children are bringing a strain on her health and on the financial capability of the family. How much does the Catholic Church require of a woman as far as her marital responsibilities are concerned? Should this be balanced with questions about the health of the mother and her ability to continue as a mother to her family?

The situation is that that the wife is too sick to have another child and the father can’t afford to feed another mouth. BUT the father also demands sexual relations of the wife even though she could end up pregnant.

Do you really think that ABC or “the pill” will solve her problems?

People are using sarcasm, insults, ad hominems against me to avoid the difficult question of a possible double effect situation.

Double effect? There is no double effect. Her husband wants consequence free sex.

 

[Steveabrous]

Why discuss a teaching of the Catholic Church on divorce if it is carved in stone? If they are discussing a teaching of the RCC which differs from the teaching of the EOC in the matter of divorce, is it possible that they could discuss another teaching of the RCC which differs from that of the EOC.

Well. I think that Francis would like to change it, but I don’t believe he will be able to. Just because he is Pope doesn’t mean he can change this teaching. But it does mean he can call a council to see.

 

[Tomdstone]

Do you really think that ABC or “the pill” will solve her problems?
.

She would not have the problem of having more children.

 

[Steveabrous]

People are using sarcasm, insults, ad hominems against me to avoid the difficult question of a possible double effect situation.

The situation is that that the wife is too sick to have another child and the father can’t afford to feed another mouth. BUT the father also demands sexual relations of the wife even though she could end up pregnant.

We are not taking it seriously because it is a ridiculous scenario.

Give me a real situation and I will take it seriously

 

[Tomdstone]

Double effect? There is no double effect.

Here is a possible double effect scenario:

1. The wife uses ABC which is a mortal sin and therefore is harmful morally.
2. The wife does not use ABC, but gives in to the demands of her husband and has more children, thus ruining her health and presenting extreme financial difficulties for the family.

 

[Corki]

No. According to orthodox wiki: “There are those who teach that non-abortifacient contraception is acceptable if it is used with the blessing of one’s spiritual father, and if it is not used simply to avoid having children for purely selfish reasons. The statement on marriage and family from the 10th All-American Council of the Orthodox Church in America follows along these lines, as does “The Bases of the Social Concept of the Russian Orthodox Church,” section XII. 3, which was approved by the 2000 Council of the Russian Orthodox Church.”
Of course, there are some in the E. Orthodox Church who hold views similar or identical to the RCC on ABC.

Non-abortifacient contraception is barrier methods - not prescription drugs. And that’s what I said.

 

[Tomdstone]

The situation is that that the wife is too sick to have another child and the father can’t afford to feed another mouth. BUT the father also demands sexual relations of the wife even though she could end up pregnant.

We are not taking it seriously because it is a ridiculous scenario.

Give me a real situation and I will take it seriously

Why are you responding to a hypothetical situation, if you do not accept the hypothetical nature of the moral question in the first place?