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Debora123
Guest
Don’t you think her husband should be in the picture too?
And don’t you think “confessor” would mean an implication to God?
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And don’t you think “confessor” would mean an implication to God?
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1ke
Guest
But it is what the Church says.
renewamerica.com/columns/mershon/080711
ewtn.com/library/curia/cedsspx2.htm
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Corki
Guest
The confessor acts in persona ChristiDon’t you think her husband should be in the picture too?
And don’t you think “confessor” would mean an implication to God?
And the husband may be a factor in her culpability but he doesn’t have (name removed by moderator)ut into whether she is culpable or how much. He may have his own culpability to worry about.
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Debora123
Guest
I know.
That’s why including God in the picture, as I did, does not exclude a confessor but only reenforces one.Well if he “plays a factor in her culpability” wouldn’t this mean that he does have some sort of (name removed by moderator)ut in her culpability? Say he was pressuring her, for instance.
Of course, I agree he has his own culpability to worry about too.
So, as I said, the issue is between her, her husband, and God.
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Corki
Guest
When you say it’s between her and her husband, I inferred that you meant that she and her husband would have a conversation or an agreement about it. While they will certainly be discussing using contraception, that would not be the discussion about her culpability. Her husband and his actions (coercing her) would be one of the subjects of the discussion with her confessor.
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Steveabrous
Guest
I saw this Vortex episode today and found it strikingly appropriate to your little “Hypothesis” and the obvious assumptions you are making. So I decided to share.
churchmilitant.tv/daily/?today=2013-08-08
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ahs
Guest
Well, I have to admit I did not watch that episode initially…but since you posted it, I went ahead and viewed it. That was very well put and presented.
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ahs
Guest
You are right…her culpability is between her and God. But the issue of contraception and whether it is permitted is not. God has already spoken on that, via His Church. “He who listens to you, listens to Me…who rejects you, rejects Me and the One who sent Me…”
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PRmerger
Guest
Whether she would be condemned to hell is above our paygrade.
However, by analogy: do you think it would be somewhat harsh for a wife to send her husband to the couch for having sex with another woman, even if he was faithful to her for 15 years?
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Tomdstone
Guest
Not really. Being sent to the couch is nothing in comparison with being sent to hell. Hell is eternal damnation in everlasting fire. If you are on a couch, you can watch TV, read in peace or even drink beer. It doesn’t seem like anything remotely harsh to me.
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PRmerger
Guest
Think of it as an analogy, Tomdstone.
And think of it as an answer to: don’t you think it’s harsh to do this?
Do you think a wife would be harsh for sending her husband to the couch for having sex with another person, even if he’d been faithful to her for 15 years? yes? or no?
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PRmerger
Guest
Well, yes. Sins against the Infinite require infinite justice.
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Debora123
Guest
You’re being merciful, and I can relate to that.
It may help you understand better if you take into account that no one goes to Hell kicking and screaming… everyone who goes to Hell puts themselves there. Going to Hell means deliberately turning away from God.
That’s why it’s hard to say whether or not someone has committed a mortal sin. Because even if they commit an act that is grave matter, they basically need to be deliberately and willfully turning away from God for it to be counted as a mortal sin (and none of us can know that because none of us can see what is in the person’s heart). And that’s why you go to Hell if you are guilty of a mortal sin without repentance… because you have deliberately turned your back on God, and when that happens there is no where else to go except Hell. It’s the only place where God is not present.
Hope that helps, my friend!
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lifeisbeautiful
Guest
If we know something is grave matter, and choose to do it anyways, using our own free will (not being coerced), then we are turning away from God. We don’t have to literally say we want to turn away from God. By knowingly and willfully choosing to do the action that is grave matter, we are choosing that over God.You’re being merciful, and I can relate to that.
It may help you understand better if you take into account that no one goes to Hell kicking and screaming… everyone who goes to Hell puts themselves there. Going to Hell means deliberately turning away from God.
That’s why it’s hard to say whether or not someone has committed a mortal sin. Because even if they commit an act that is grave matter, they basically need to be deliberately and willfully turning away from God for it to be counted as a mortal sin (and none of us can know that because none of us can see what is in the person’s heart). And that’s why you go to Hell if you are guilty of a mortal sin without repentance… because you have deliberately turned your back on God, and when that happens there is no where else to go except Hell. It’s the only place where God is not present.
Hope that helps, my friend!
A couple of quotes from the Catechism:
1850 Sin is an offense against God: "Against you, you alone, have I sinned, and done that which is evil in your sight."122…
1855 **Mortal sin **destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God’s law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him…
1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131
But I agree, we do not know anyone’s heart and it is not up to us to try to guess what only God can see. We do, however, know certain things are grave matter and should never mislead anyone on that information, and we should discourage if at all possible any actions that are grave matter.
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Debora123
Guest
Right, but her culpability might still be lessened even if she knows it’s grave matter and does it anyway. (Remember, it’s grave matter, knowledge, and consent of the will… not just grave matter and knowledge.) If she’s in a situation where she is afraid for her life, for example, and wants to do what she sees is best for the family she may feel like that’s what she HAS to do. It would still be wrong, of course, but culpability may be lessened.
And there also could be the possibility that even though she knows the Church says it’s grave matter, she honestly believes it’s what she has to do for herself and her children… and perhaps has even been told by a priest to do so. It would still be wrong, of course, but culpability may be lessened.
The point is, even though something may be grave matter, there is still a lot that goes into it becoming a mortal sin and we cannot even begin to guess whether it becomes that or not in someone else’s personal case.
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Blue_Horizon
Guest
Nicely put.You’re being merciful, and I can relate to that.
It may help you understand better if you take into account that no one goes to Hell kicking and screaming… everyone who goes to Hell puts themselves there. Going to Hell means deliberately turning away from God.
That’s why it’s hard to say whether or not someone has committed a mortal sin. Because even if they commit an act that is grave matter, they basically need to be deliberately and willfully turning away from God for it to be counted as a mortal sin (and none of us can know that because none of us can see what is in the person’s heart). And that’s why you go to Hell if you are guilty of a mortal sin without repentance… because you have deliberately turned your back on God, and when that happens there is no where else to go except Hell. It’s the only place where God is not present.
Hope that helps, my friend!
Just a little fine tuning … it is prob possible to go to hell kicking and screaming for those whose sin is more of intellect than concupiscence.
God is also in hell as God is everywhere. Which means the word hell must be being used in various senses - some indicating a state or relationship or shared nature.
More than place.
Just heading off the atheists
.
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PRmerger
Guest
I think the best image of hell that I’ve read is from Peter Kreeft: “The fires of hell maybe made of the very love of God, experienced as torture by those who hate him: the very light of God’s truth, hated and fled from in vain by those who love darkness. Imagine a man in hell—no, a ghost—endlessly chasing his own shadow, a**s the light of God shines endlessly behind him. **If he would only turn and face the light, he would be saved. But he refuses to—forever.”God is also in hell as God is everywhere. Which means the word hell must be being used in various senses - some indicating a state or relationship or shared nature.
More than place.
Just heading off the atheists
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Debora123
Guest
Tom, I just gave your thread a 5 star rating.
Thank you for the interesting, thought provoking question about a hypothetical scenario which I’m sure is really not as rare as some people here have made it out to be.
Though the answer to your question is that it would still be considered grave matter, it really reminds us again about culpability and about the fact that none of us can ever ever ever say “so and so is going to Hell because she/he committed this grave act.”
And once again, even if the individual knows the Church teaches such act is grave and does it anyway, it does not automatically mean that there was full consent of the will. Especially in a situation where this woman may be scared for her life and trying to do what she thinks she must do in order to best serve her family. I personally do not see a scenario like this being a deliberate rejection of God, and thus do not think this woman in your hypothetical scenario is guilty of mortal sin and putting herself in Hell. Just my educated opinion though, since once again, none of us can ever know for sure and neither is it our place to speculate.
I am sorry you were faced with the insults, curt remarks, and ad hominems from a couple members throughout this thread. You, as a non Catholics, asked us a legitimate question in an attempt to understand the faith and did not deserve to be spoken to in that way. I hope you will continue to want to learn more about our faith, and I hope us here at CAF can help you.
God bless.
Thank you for the interesting, thought provoking question about a hypothetical scenario which I’m sure is really not as rare as some people here have made it out to be.
Though the answer to your question is that it would still be considered grave matter, it really reminds us again about culpability and about the fact that none of us can ever ever ever say “so and so is going to Hell because she/he committed this grave act.”
And once again, even if the individual knows the Church teaches such act is grave and does it anyway, it does not automatically mean that there was full consent of the will. Especially in a situation where this woman may be scared for her life and trying to do what she thinks she must do in order to best serve her family. I personally do not see a scenario like this being a deliberate rejection of God, and thus do not think this woman in your hypothetical scenario is guilty of mortal sin and putting herself in Hell. Just my educated opinion though, since once again, none of us can ever know for sure and neither is it our place to speculate.
I am sorry you were faced with the insults, curt remarks, and ad hominems from a couple members throughout this thread. You, as a non Catholics, asked us a legitimate question in an attempt to understand the faith and did not deserve to be spoken to in that way. I hope you will continue to want to learn more about our faith, and I hope us here at CAF can help you.
God bless.
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Debora123
Guest
I’m not sure what you mean here…
But my point was that contrary to popular belief, God does not put us in Hell. We put ourselves in Hell due to a fully deliberate rejection of God.
Hope that clears up what I meant.
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