Is ABC ever permissable

[ahs]

… I mean, suppose that the doctor advised her not to have any more children because of health reasons, and he prescribed a contraceptive pill…

If her health reasons were so serious so as to need to avoid conception, wouldn’t the BEST option be to avoid the act that can lead to conception, rather than engage it in and hope it doesn’t have the natural effect that intercourse has?

 

[Tomdstone]

to the OP: you list your religion as other so how you do A) know this woman attends a SSPX church and has 15 children and B) know that she was given a prescription for conraceptives?

No, there is never a time when POISON (Which is what the PILL is, a poison) is permitted.

There is an SSPX chapel nearby. Also, I said that the prescription for ABC was a hypothetical, not a given.

 

[Tomdstone]

The situation you present is not a realistic one.

I suspect you have not been to many SSPX chapels. I agree that most families are quite a bit smaller in the regular Catholic Churches.

 

[Tomdstone]

Such situations are ALWAYS unique in their many details…Details that are never supplied in the scenarios for the simple reason that to do so would require writing a book instead of an internet posting.
Things you’ve left out are how this woman feels about having so many children…what is the role of the husband in all of this…etc…

Because these details cannot be known in sufficient detail on a public forum…and also because the function of a public forum is to provide public answers, we must state categorically that ABC is never permissible…

Your question here moves from the realm of the “law” and toward the idea of God’s mercy. It moves from the area of "normative teaching, to the needs of a given unique individual (or couple) in a given unique circumstance.
Here, I would simply make this observation. God granted His clergy the power or bind or loose sin…Confession, that is the sacrament of Reconciliation, is the place we go to discuss and deal with our sins and our struggles…
A person who finds themselves in the circumstance you outline here, needs to have the (name removed by moderator)ut and the guidance of a good regular confessor.

The Church’s teachings are firm and they are good. God’s mercy to those who seek to follow Him with all their heart is endless.

So - could a good confessor ever allow for an exception? Anything is possible…if the unique situation warrants it…
But I stress this above all…IF THE UNIQUE SITUATION WARRANTS IT…
and if it is seen (by Christ’s minister in confession / counseling) to be warranted…then it should not be discussed by the participants with anyone else so as to not cause confusion or sin by others.

I trust I have been sufficiently obtuse…

Peace
James

So there would be exceptions in cases such as this? It does seem like this lady has done her job well and that more children would be seriously damaging to her health. Further, the Church should realize that there are financial limitations on what a family can afford.

 

[Corki]

So there would be exceptions in cases such as this? It does seem like this lady has done her job well and that more children would be seriously damaging to her health. Further, the Church should realize that there are financial limitations on what a family can afford.

No, it is not an exception.

The Church understands all of those situations, probably better than you, I, or any other CAF poster does.

 

[Steveabrous]

I suspect you have not been to many SSPX chapels. I agree that most families are quite a bit smaller in the regular Catholic Churches.

You didn’t comment on the answer I gave to your question which is abstinence.

Again I object to your assumption that sex is for pleasure not procreation. Which is a secular view that you are applying to religious people who, obviously, do not share your opinion on the matter or they wouldn’t be in SSPX.

 

[maryjk]

So there would be exceptions in cases such as this? It does seem like this lady has done her job well and that more children would be seriously damaging to her health. Further, the Church should realize that there are financial limitations on what a family can afford.

And if that is the case, the couple can and should practice abstinence.

 

[JRKH]

So there would be exceptions in cases such as this?

This is how false information gets started…you have taken all of my explanation and caveats and reduced them to a simple statement that simply does not represent what I said…
I suggest that you re-read my post - - slowly - - and carefully…

It does seem like this lady has done her job well and that more children would be seriously damaging to her health.

This is an assumption on your part…
As you said, other than for looking tired, you don’t know anything about this woman’s heath - or her mental / emotional / spiritual state. Your health scenario and question is related to something hypothetical and VERY incomplete.
The reality might be quite different. This woman might be tired but extremely happy and satisfied that God has blessed her with so many children. She may likewise be happy that she has a husband that thinks as she does and willingly accepts God’s little gifts to them and they work together as a team and as a family so that all are thoroughly loved and properly cared for.

Further, the Church should realize that there are financial limitations on what a family can afford.

Why would you think that the Church does not realize this??

No, it is not an exception.

The Church understands all of those situations, probably better than you, I, or any other CAF poster does.

Amen - Corki…

Peace
James

 

[1ke]

So there would be exceptions in cases such as this?

No.

That is not accurate in any way. There are no exceptions. Contraception and sterilization are always wrong.

What sometimes can be moral is, if there is a legitimate medical condition, the removal of a diseased organ or treatment that has the **unintended consequence **of infertility/sterility-- like a hysterectomy due to a diseased uterus.

That is not what you propose. Contraception and sterlization to prevent pregnancy is **always **wrong.

 

[brendenseth]

There is a family at the local SSPX Church with 15 children. The mother looks very tired and she is pregnant again. I know that artificial birth control is a mortal sin, but are there exceptions? I mean, suppose that the doctor advised her not to have any more children because of health reasons, and he prescribed a contraceptive pill. Further, suppose that the rhythym method or NFP does not work for her. Would it be a mortal sin for her to have this prescription filled and use ABC in order to preserve her health and be able to take care of her 15 children? It seems somewhat harsh to send such a person to eternal damnation in hell after she has raised 15 children and done her best for her family and her children. After all, how many Catholic families have only two children? Why condemn such a person as this saintly lady if she decides that 15 children is as much as she can handle and she follows the advice of her doctor.

There is no way that nfp wouldn’t work for her. My wife was prescribed the pill for a medical reason, but I always had this feeling she shouldn’t be taking it. I researched it and we both decided to look into other areas, I couldn’t live with myself knowing my conceived children were being aborted. So we got introduced to this lady who teaches the Creighton Method, and it has been nothing short of a miracle for us. That problem she had was pmdd, all too often they prescribe yaz for this. We’ve been doing it about a year now and her symptoms have completely gone away! Also we didn’t want to have more children than one right now, because we both have brain injuries from car accidents. So I have a program on my IPhone that let’s me keep track of the charts. Nfp is so effective, but there is always a chance as with any birth control. She must not be too young having 15 children, so if she is against it totally she should abstain completely, because she will go through menopause shortly.

 

[Tomdstone]

You didn’t comment on the answer I gave to your question which is abstinence.

The hypothesis is that the husband does not agree with abstinence and the wife believes that she should not refuse her husband.

 

[Tomdstone]

This is an assumption on your part…

Of course it is. I am presenting a hypothetical situation and asking about the morality of ABC in this hypothetical case. Many people are presenting workarounds which may be good solutions in some cases, but they do not fit the hypotheses that are given in this problem.

 

[maryjk]

The hypothesis is that the husband does not agree with abstinence and the wife believes that she should not refuse her husband.

Of course it is. I am presenting a hypothetical situation and asking about the morality of ABC in this hypothetical case. Many people are presenting workarounds which may be good solutions in some cases, but they do not fit the hypotheses that are given in this problem.

Actually you keep adding to the hypothesis.

 

[Corki]

Of course it is. I am presenting a hypothetical situation and asking about the morality of ABC in this hypothetical case. Many people are presenting workarounds which may be good solutions in some cases, but they do not fit the hypotheses that are given in this problem.

ABC is NEVER a moral solution. Period. End stop. The wife’s personal culpability may be lessoned if, for example, he husband used a contraceptive device over her objections.

There is not hypothesis or hypothetical scenario where it would be moral for a woman to contracept willingly and with full knowledge.

 

[Tomdstone]

Actually you keep adding to the hypothesis.

I want to present a case where a woman is more or less exhausted and that more children would be detrimental to her health and would not be sustainable financially. Would she be allowed to use ABC in such a case or is she obliged to continue to have more children? Would it be a mortal sin for such a woman to use ABC in order to protect her health so that she would not die or be placed in the hospital for exhaustion? Wouldn’t it be detrimental to her family for her health to deteriorate so dramatically?
This question came up when I did see a woman at an SSPX chapel with a very large number of children and another on the way. She looked terribly exhausted to me, although the older girls were doing a good job taking care of the younger ones.
I think that this may point out a big difference between the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church. I think that the EOC would allow the woman to use ABC in such a case, as long as she consulted with her local priest.

 

[Tomdstone]

ABC is NEVER a moral solution. Period. End stop. The wife’s personal culpability may be lessoned if, for example, he husband used a contraceptive device over her objections.

There is not hypothesis or hypothetical scenario where it would be moral for a woman to contracept willingly and with full knowledge.

I don’t see how there could ever be a union between the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church, since in one Church it would not be a sin, whereas in the other it is a mortal sin.

 

[Corki]

I don’t see how there could ever be a union between the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church, since in one Church it would not be a sin, whereas in the other it is a mortal sin.

That’s above my pay grade. As Catholics, we can’t worry too much about what the Orthodox teach. In our daily decisions on morally, we must learn and follow what the Catholic Church teaches.

 

[maryjk]

I don’t see how there could ever be a union between the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church, since in one Church it would not be a sin, whereas in the other it is a mortal sin.

It is the same if a Catholic marries a Protestant or someone that doesn’t follow a religion. Contraception is a sin for the Catholic and not for the other spouse.

A loving spouse wouldn’t ask their partner to sin.

 

[maryjk]

The hypothesis is that the husband does not agree with abstinence and the wife believes that she should not refuse her husband.

I find it interesting that you have your hypothetical wife believing she shouldn’t refuse her husband but she is fine with the sin on contraception.

 

[Corki]

I want to present a case where a woman is more or less exhausted and that more children would be detrimental to her health and would not be sustainable financially

Would she be allowed to use ABC in such a case

No.

or is she obliged to continue to have more children?

No, she is not so obliged.

Would it be a mortal sin for such a woman to use ABC in order to protect her health so that she would not die or be placed in the hospital for exhaustion?

Yes, providing the other conditions for mortal sin are met.

Wouldn’t it be detrimental to her family for her health to deteriorate so dramatically?

Possibly. But it would be detrimental to her immortal soul to disregard the Church’s teaching on contraception.

You are presenting two extreme choices - 1) use contraception vs. 2) die from exhaustion from having more children. That’s a false dichotomy.

There are many other choices in between.

This question came up when I did see a woman at an SSPX chapel with a very large number of children and another on the way. She looked terribly exhausted to me, although the older girls were doing a good job taking care of the younger ones.
I think that this may point out a big difference between the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church. I think that the EOC would allow the woman to use ABC in such a case, as long as she consulted with her local priest

Maybe she “looked exhausted” because (according to your scenario) she was pregnant. I was thoroughly exhausted through even my first pregnancy. You are reading too much into an observation.

It’s just a guess, but I think that a family who attends a SSPX chapel isn’t too influenced by the teachings of the EOC.