Is abortion ever justified?

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Hi, Ms Limeric,

I will only reference your first paragraph, and no words will be put in your mouth. There are several significant errors that I would like to identify. Let’s take a look…
limerick said:
It may be so that God would be “pleased” if we chose wisely each and every time we were faced with a difficult decision.
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God is infinitely happy in Himself. If “choosing wisely” were to “please” god, then it would show that there was an area of ‘non-pleasure’ that was somehow now made complete by our actions. This is simply not the case. When we chose wisely we move toward fulfillment of our nature as God intended - and, it is really us who are the ones ‘pleased’ by drawing closer to God. I mention this because, at least in the past, there was a focus on previous posts to make an issue of figures of speech.
limerick said:
But free will is not free if strings are attached, or some codicil states that we may have it as long as we choose the high road.
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There is no choice presented to us that is ‘free’ of ‘strings’, as you put it. From the simple decision on whether to get our of bed, or remain in bed - there are multiple areas to consider: do you have to go to work? get a family ready for school? take care of yourself with a ‘snooze alarm’ or are you ‘off’ today and simply wish additional rest as a special reward for completing a demanding job? or are you just so lazy that continued sloth is what you want? There is always a matter to consider and consequences to evaluate because of our very human condition. This does not alter the fact that you have a free will.

By considering the particular and consequences of a particular act, we are best using our free will to make that actual choice. How good or poor the choice is not the issue - you are free to make whichever one you wish. By making a certain choice, you automatically choose against another choice, e.g., by getting out of bed, you do not choose to remain in bed. This is quite different from shallow act of merely wanting someting. This is the mature act of making a commitment

The expression of the ‘high’ road is simply a marker on where it is we find ourselves after having made a choice - usually a series of choices. Those plagued by addiction can look back at their lives and see a multitude of poor choices that have brought them to wherever it is that they find themselves now. The true wonder of free will is that this afflicted person is free to make better choices and to turn their life around. History is filled with the stories of those who ‘hit the bottom’ and for whatever reason said, “No More” and began to change. There are others who have remained on the bottom - but, this is not because of a lack of free will. These individual continued to use their free will to make poor choices.
limerick said:
We are not hard-wired to do so.
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In my opinion, this is a basic error in appreciating our common human nature: we are ‘hard wired’ to choose. And, not just to make a choice between up or down, left or right or even good or evil! We are constantly confronted with choosing between good and better - and even sometimes: better and best! But, we can never chose evil as such because that is against our nature - we really are hardwired that way. Whatever the action, it is chosen because the one making the choice sees the good in it. Now, that good may not be much (contrasted with all of hte eveil there is assocated with the act) but that is not the point. Whatever the act, it is chosen because this person will derive some benefit. The addict who choses to move away from his addiction sees the grater good in regaining his life, while the addict who choses to remain in his addiction sees the limited good in debasing himself.

This focus on us always wanting to choose the good is a reflection of us being God’s creation. We were made in His Image - and that Image is Good. Even doomed attempts at trying to find limited good (such as through chosing abortion) are a reflection of our desire for God and His Goodness.
limerick said:
We have all made decisions which were not in our best spiritual interests: unless you are superhuman you have done so as well. If God wants us to come to Him freely we must choose to do so. We are not hard-wired to do so.
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None of us are ‘superhuman’ - all have fallen short, even in human terms, of making consistently good decisions. “God wills the salvation of all” - and that removes that “IF” you started the sentence with. There is no doubt as to the intentions of God, Who sent His Son to die on the Cross for each of us. For those who chose abortion, either for themselves, or helped others to abort, God still holds out His Hand to give us His Grace if we but turn to Him and repent.

God bless
 
tqualey said:
Hi, Ms Limeric,

I will only reference your first paragraph, and no words will be put in your mouth. There are several significant errors that I would like to identify. Let’s take a look…

God is infinitely happy in Himself. If “choosing wisely” were to “please” god, then it would show that there was an area of ‘non-pleasure’ that was somehow now made complete by our actions. This is simply not the case. When we chose wisely we move toward fulfillment of our nature as God intended - and, it is really us who are the ones ‘pleased’ by drawing closer to God. I mention this because, at least in the past, there was a focus on previous posts to make an issue of figures of speech.

**This is precisely why I put the word “pleased” in quotation marks, as I am not at all convinced that God has emotions or feelings, positive or negative. I think that assigning human characteristics to God is the only way we know how to measure our actions - does it “please HIm?” Does it “make Him angry?” We are limited in our perception of God by our humanness.
**

There is no choice presented to us that is ‘free’ of ‘strings’, as you put it. From the simple decision on whether to get our of bed, or remain in bed - there are multiple areas to consider: do you have to go to work? get a family ready for school? take care of yourself with a ‘snooze alarm’ or are you ‘off’ today and simply wish additional rest as a special reward for completing a demanding job? or are you just so lazy that continued sloth is what you want? There is always a matter to consider and consequences to evaluate because of our very human condition. This does not alter the fact that you have a free will.

**Free will is a gift. A gift with strings is not a gift at all; it is a game. **

By considering the particular and consequences of a particular act, we are best using our free will to make that actual choice. How good or poor the choice is not the issue - you are free to make whichever one you wish. By making a certain choice, you automatically choose against another choice, e.g., by getting out of bed, you do not choose to remain in bed. This is quite different from shallow act of merely wanting someting. This is the mature act of making a commitment

Free will also allows us to make poor choices which arise from need and not want. You are blessed if you have never been in such a situation.

The expression of the ‘high’ road is simply a marker on where it is we find ourselves after having made a choice - usually a series of choices. Those plagued by addiction can look back at their lives and see a multitude of poor choices that have brought them to wherever it is that they find themselves now. The true wonder of free will is that this afflicted person is free to make better choices and to turn their life around. History is filled with the stories of those who ‘hit the bottom’ and for whatever reason said, “No More” and began to change. There are others who have remained on the bottom - but, this is not because of a lack of free will. These individual continued to use their free will to make poor choices.

So are you saying that you believe addiction is willful misconduct? As an addict and alcoholic I strongly disagree.

In my opinion, this is a basic error in appreciating our common human nature: we are ‘hard wired’ to choose. And, not just to make a choice between up or down, left or right or even good or evil! We are constantly confronted with choosing between good and better - and even sometimes: better and best! But, we can never chose evil as such because that is against our nature - we really are hardwired that way. Whatever the action, it is chosen because the one making the choice sees the good in it. Now, that good may not be much (contrasted with all of hte eveil there is assocated with the act) but that is not the point. Whatever the act, it is chosen because this person will derive some benefit. The addict who choses to move away from his addiction sees the grater good in regaining his life, while the addict who choses to remain in his addiction sees the limited good in debasing himself.

This viewpoint illustrates a complete lack of understanding of addiction.

This focus on us always wanting to choose the good is a reflection of us being God’s creation. We were made in His Image - and that Image is Good. Even doomed attempts at trying to find limited good (such as through chosing abortion) are a reflection of our desire for God and His Goodness.

The point of this passage escapes me.

None of us are ‘superhuman’ - all have fallen short, even in human terms, of making consistently good decisions. “God wills the salvation of all” - and that removes that “IF” you started the sentence with. There is no doubt as to the intentions of God, Who sent His Son to die on the Cross for each of us. For those who chose abortion, either for themselves, or helped others to abort, God still holds out His Hand to give us His Grace if we but turn to Him and repent.
**
So you say. Yet I repented for my abortion in 1971 and as I share my experience here today I receive more grief, more criticism, more name-calling, more animosity than anywhere else that I have shared this information in nearly 40 years.

Limerick **

God bless
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Hi, Ms Limerick,

Yes, this is what I say. This appears to be your perception, as filtered through your own negative experiences. I have not criticized you for your claims of having an abortion, and now of addiction. My criticism has been about how you have negatively responded to others on the list. Just because someone does not agree with you does not mean you need to become angry.
limerick said:
So you say. Yet I repented for my abortion in 1971 and as I share my experience here today I receive more grief, more criticism, more name-calling, more animosity than anywhere else that I have shared this information in nearly 40 years.
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Ultimately, this as in all matters will be between you and God. I certainly wish you well on dealing with your addiction.

God bless,
 
In my opinion, abortion is never right. Magisterium is also straight forward in here, taking of innocent human life is never justified.

For my great sadness I must say though, that my OB/GYN recommended it to me, just because I am 22 and my husband is 25 and we are both students. Later to my astonishment I learned that this same guy is our parish member! :eek:
 
limerick said:
So you say. Yet I repented for my abortion in 1971 and as I share my experience here today I receive more grief, more criticism, more name-calling, more animosity than anywhere else that I have shared this information in nearly 40 years.
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Maybe you don’t mean “here,” exactly, but I haven’t seen anyone call you names, etc. Yes, we disagree *with what you are saying, *but anything you might perceive as “animosity” is not a result of your abortion but of what you say you currently believe.
 
Limerick seems to have every affliction known to man, or woman, when the need arises to score a point. I wonder…hmmmmmm. When the need arises to belittle it is done. When it is to counter with a falsehood of obfuscation …“Fire away Griddly” When someone writes something that could be viewed out of context…it is…an amazing piece “O” work… Bottom line is s-he wants to kill. If the child could have been beamed by Scottie to the “Dark Side” of the moon, s-he would have said NO…well then again in order to win a point in this “Debate” what I just said…s-he might very well say that s-he would allow Scottie to beam the little tyke to safety…Unless that would score someone else a point in this pointless “debate” about the evils of killing innocents. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that giving “almost” birth to a 8.5 month old fetus and stabbing it in the back of the head and sucking out its brains is probably wrong. Especially if the Fetus could have been born and then survived as a child with minimal help. The point is that some mothers are Pro-Death and some are Pro-Life. Their is no “debate”. It is the same “debate” that the world had with Hitler. Prior to the war the world turned a blind eye to the evils, in the end they said…Who knew??? In this struggle their are no winners only losers. The mother that kills, the child that dies, the society too stupid to stop it.

Cheers…LIMERICK…twist it stomp it…and choke it…Fire away “Griddly” with the Bile I know that you are capable of…see if you can use a sexist, religious, or age discriminating attack…reach into that bag of tricks…and Walla…POOF…you were born a poor African, Amerasian, Indian, Hermaphrodite that could not speak French or Spanish and accidentally raped yourself…and that is why we should now pity you and allow you to justify why the taking of an innocents life is “A-Ok”…You hate yourself for both the crime of rape and murder and struggle withing yourself to justify both actions. My tale is just as good as yours… and yes life is NOT fair…and men and women are not equal and fat old men can’t jump either and they also can’t give birth.

I obviously am not even close to your level of brilliance, or education, or love of self, or hate of children or men, or pity, or what ever else you want to push…Oh that is right now you can fall back on the "Oh how dare you say such hateful things argument… I have never heard such attacks from supposed Christians in 40 years…tough get over it…IF you had an abortion, I think you just like to write your dribble and I am not even sure if you are 55+ year old female, your child has already paid the price for your stupidity.

God will forgive you if you request it…Since I am not god and not qualified to judge you by his standards. I can only judge you by my standards and you are deemed to be a very shrewd calculating 40 year old man that loves to argue…I am probably wrong, but hey like you I just love to DRIBBLE and DRABBLE all over the place… I am not even a “Real” Catholic yet and have little capacity for trying to understand such a warped point of view as you espouse so I take it a humor…and in that case you get HIGH marks for your creative fiction…CHEERS…👍
 
Hi, NewCatholicJeff,

First of all, let me welcome you to the Faith - and, to CAF! 🙂 Now, on to business…😃

Woooooooooooooooooow … as you know, I am not fan of Ms Limerick (she informed on a previous post that she is a she…and, I have not cause to doubt the statement…:D) but, I had no idea I had cut her so much slack in my previous posts…! :eek:

So, you’ve noticed this, “Let-me-tell-you-how-much-worse-my-experience-was…” item, eh? It does have me concerned. However, in all honesty, unless we have some specific ground to refute a person claiming a personal experience, I do not think it in keeping with charity to directly challenge someone on this. After all, they may have had this experience - and, just who are we to judge?

I think the real focus is just what does some DO with that experience. What information are they trying to convey to others by telling us of their personal ups and downs? Is their message in keeping with the Gospel’s Message? We all have some kind of baggage that weighs us down (sometimes more than others) and it may be that this baggage is keeping us from fully embracing the Message of Christ.
NEWCATHOLICJEFF said:
Limerick seems to have every affliction known to man, or woman, when the need arises to score a point. I wonder…hmmmmmm. When the need arises to belittle it is done. When it is to counter with a falsehood of obfuscation …“Fire away Griddly” When someone writes something that could be viewed out of context…it is…an amazing piece “O” work… Bottom line is s-he wants to kill.
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Now, I am not sure what you meant by this …
NEWCATHOLICJEFF said:
“I am not even a “Real” Catholic yet …”
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But, if your pen-name is accurate, then: you are a “Real” Catholic. Naturally, this does not mean you have learned it all - but, through the Grace of God you have walked through the door and moving towards Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. I think you will find CAF an excellent site where your questions and concerns can be answered.

God bless
 
tqualey said:
Hi, Ms Limerick,

Yes, this is what I say. This appears to be your perception, as filtered through your own negative experiences. I have not criticized you for your claims of having an abortion, and now of addiction. My criticism has been about how you have negatively responded to others on the list. Just because someone does not agree with you does not mean you need to become angry.

Doing well on the addiction - sober 25 years this summer. My comment about the negativity I have encountered here is a reference to the whole of Catholic Answers Forum, not just this single thread.

Ultimately, this as in all matters will be between you and God. I certainly wish you well on dealing with your addiction.

Many thanks - Limerick

God bless,
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Abortion is never justified.

Here are my reasons:

  1. *]It is a sin against God AND man
    *]It is willfully destroying an innocent life created by God
    *]It is murder, plain and simple
    *]Pride is the deadliest of the 7 Deadly Sins. To me, an abortion (no matter the circumstances) shows extreme pride
    *]Abortion is telling God that we know better than Him about how to take care of ourselves (no matter the circumstances)

    Limerick, with all due respect, I could care less if you look down upon me for my views or for being (as you charitably called me a few pages ago) a “uterus-less one”. Guess what, it shouldn’t matter if I am man or woman, because that has nothing to do with my views on the subject!
    Don’t try to tell me that I would’ve done the same in your situation or that I don’t know how you felt. I do agree that I don’t know how you felt, and I also agree that I have little clue what your situation was like. All I can tell you is that I would have made the morally correct choice. If I was a pregnant mom and knew the pregnancy would endanger my life, I would pray a lot about it. If God wants to call me up to be with Him then I ain’t stoppin’ Him!

    Forgive me if I seem overly aggressive. Abortion is a subject on which I have very strong feelings about (as is probably obvious).

    Peace
 
TheWhoFreak said:
Abortion is never justified.

Here are my reasons:

  1. *]It is a sin against God AND man
    *]It is willfully destroying an innocent life created by God
    *]It is murder, plain and simple
    *]Pride is the deadliest of the 7 Deadly Sins. To me, an abortion (no matter the circumstances) shows extreme pride
    *]Abortion is telling God that we know better than Him about how to take care of ourselves (no matter the circumstances)

    Limerick, with all due respect, I could care less if you look down upon me for my views or for being (as you charitably called me a few pages ago) a “uterus-less one”. Guess what, it shouldn’t matter if I am man or woman, because that has nothing to do with my views on the subject!
    Don’t try to tell me that I would’ve done the same in your situation or that I don’t know how you felt. I do agree that I don’t know how you felt, and I also agree that I have little clue what your situation was like. All I can tell you is that I would have made the morally correct choice. If I was a pregnant mom and knew the pregnancy would endanger my life, I would pray a lot about it. If God wants to call me up to be with Him then I ain’t stoppin’ Him!

    Forgive me if I seem overly aggressive. Abortion is a subject on which I have very strong feelings about (as is probably obvious).

    Peace
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  1. So, you would condemn everyone who has a valid medical reason, no matter what? In that case, please read back to my earlier posts on this thread, and you will read a description of a woman who DID have justification. I will not repeat those posts, as I refuse to go through that again. Read them for yourself, and then think about the wording of the question “Is abortion EVER justified?”. In the case I described, it clearly was, as she was a medical disaster area, looking for a place to happen. She was grossly overweight, with extremely high blood pressure, and her CBC had numbers that, in some cases, were sort of off the scale. EVERY medical practitioner, including her own family doctor, told her that she either had to abort…or be dead within a couple of months, at best.
    That woman is alive today, and the mother of healthy twins. She has totally changed her life. The abortion was, perhaps, the wake-up call that she needed. Those twins would not be alive today if she had tried to carry her first child to term.
    Now, far be it for me to disagree with the Church, but the laws of the Church apply only to members of the Church. Jewish people are not subject to those laws, in case you did not know that. I know, because I was born Jewish. Obviously, I am now a Knight of Columbus who has served at some very high levels.
    To paraphrase something the Lord said, “God made the laws for man, not man for the laws.” It is not up to man to make laws by which others must live. That’s God’s job, and I don’t see us as being wise enough to usurp His role. God taught the ancient Hebrews that they were required to defend themselves. To my knowledge, He has never changed that one!
    I anticipate that you will go back and read my earlier posts on this topic in order to acquaint yourself with the particulars of this case. If not, then we have no basis for discussion. If so, then we can move forward and duscuss, calmly, rationally.
    Mind you, I am also one who is supportive of the Pro-Life movement, and has been for over 30 years. I will never support the pro-abortion gang of thugs, so let’s make sure you understand that fact, at least.

    V.J.!!!
    (Let’s see if you understand what THAT means, by the way.If so, you know from which Degree it comes.
 
PastGrandKnight said:
Now, far be it for me to disagree with the Church, but the laws of the Church apply only to members of the Church.
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Moral laws are not the “laws of the Church,” nor do they pertain only to Catholics. Moral laws pertain to all of us, and are written on our hearts for us to follow.

As to the case you mentioned, and your point is…? Consider this: in China, it is said that the government kills people to harvest their organs and sell them. Don’t know if this is true, but say it is for the sake of this argument. Does the fact that someone’s life is saved justify the killing of the other person?

I don’t mean to sound cold-hearted about your friend, but we do not know if she would have died, but we do know that someone else did die.
 
St_Francis said:
Moral laws are not the “laws of the Church,” nor do they pertain only to Catholics. Moral laws pertain to all of us, and are written on our hearts for us to follow.

As to the case you mentioned, and your point is…? Consider this: in China, it is said that the government kills people to harvest their organs and sell them. Don’t know if this is true, but say it is for the sake of this argument. Does the fact that someone’s life is saved justify the killing of the other person?

I don’t mean to sound cold-hearted about your friend, but we do not know if she would have died, but we do know that someone else did die.
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I agree with this guy^^^^

PastGrandKnight, my postition is, and always will be unchanged. In my mind there is no reason good enough to justify an abortion. To me it is one of the most evil things in the world today. Not to belittle your friend, but she should have exercised personal responsibility before getting pregnant. To kill a fetus to make up for the mistakes of its mother is a poor exchange, IMHO:mad:
 
TheWhoFreak said:
I agree with this guy^^^^

PastGrandKnight, my postition is, and always will be unchanged. In my mind there is no reason good enough to justify an abortion. To me it is one of the most evil things in the world today. Not to belittle your friend, but she should have exercised personal responsibility before getting pregnant. To kill a fetus to make up for the mistakes of its mother is a poor exchange, IMHO:mad:
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Then you are breaking one of the direct orders Jesus gave:
“Judge not, lest ye be judged”.

The mother would have died long before the baby would have been born. Her heart was not…at that time, strong enough to take the additional stress of pregnancy.

Yes, I know there are such things as miracles, but once the gun is fired there is no stopping the bullet. It’s out of the barrel and heading your way." (note: not your way, personally, but figuratively).

Under the laws of ancient Judaism, which are observed by Orthodox Jews, if a pregnancy is going to result in the death of the mother, she is REQUIRED to have an abortion. Those are the laws as she was taught them from her childhood. It is not our place to sit in judgement of her or her laws. Her laws did not come from Man, nor from any misinterpretation from Hebrew into English.

So as I sit here, it is obvious to me that she did what she was expected to do based on her religious teaching, yet you did not observe the command of Jesus relative to judging someone else.

I guess you’ll never make it into the Knights of Columbus, at this rate.

And for the record, while I am now Roman Catholic, I was born Jewish and was Bar Mitzvah at Congregation Chai Odom in Boston.

Have a nice day.
 
PastGrandKnight said:
Under the laws of ancient Judaism, which are observed by Orthodox Jews, if a pregnancy is going to result in the death of the mother, she is REQUIRED to have an abortion. Those are the laws as she was taught them from her childhood. It is not our place to sit in judgement of her or her laws. Her laws did not come from Man, nor from any misinterpretation from Hebrew into English.

.
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There are religious groups that teach many things that are contrary to what the Church teaches. This teaching is one of them, it does not make abortion right for this person. I am sorry that she was taught error and chose to kill her child because of that error. God will judge those who led her into this error.
 
Hi, Livi,

First of all, here is a bit of a late welcome to the list. I think you will find it a fountain of insight and inspiration! 🙂

You have brought up an interesting concept, and I would like to comment on the opposite side of it…
livi said:
And someone made a comment about “a woman shouldn’t be forced to carry a baby she doesn’t want to” and maybe someday “we can just grow babies in artificial wombs” and “control our reproductive cycle completely and without negative side effects.” First of all, why are some people so worried about not “forcing” women to carry babies but not about the fact that innocent babies are being murdered. Pregnancy does not ruin a woman’s life, it does not last forever, and the unborn baby being carried has done nothing to deserve being killed. They deserve as much protection as the mother. Second of all, “articial wombs” would just be so unnatural they should not even be considered. God made women to be able to carry their children inside their wombs, and that should not be interfered with. And if you want to “control your reproductive cycle completely” then don’t sleep with anyone!
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I work as the Charge Nurse on the Psychiatric Intensie Care Unit of a psychiatric hospital. In my practice I have encountered women who have had abortions and now are going through serious mental health problems. Note this is not necessarily cause and effect - these women may have had mental health problems before they became pregnant - but, for the ones who I have seen, there is a tremendous guilt associated with them having had an abortion. This guilt has been with them for years - and they are truly a very distressed group. Their actions have not been without serious and very sad consequences.

They surely need our prayers.

God bless
 
St_Francis said:
Moral laws are not the “laws of the Church,” nor do they pertain only to Catholics. Moral laws pertain to all of us, and are written on our hearts for us to follow.

As to the case you mentioned, and your point is…? Consider this: in China, it is said that the government kills people to harvest their organs and sell them. Don’t know if this is true, but say it is for the sake of this argument. Does the fact that someone’s life is saved justify the killing of the other person?

I don’t mean to sound cold-hearted about your friend, but we do not know if she would have died, but we do know that someone else did die.
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Hindu morality is not Catholic morality, yet it is no less legitimate than Catholic morality. (“In essence the Hindu moral code is more an advisory than a commandment.” ~ Tattva: A Tribute To Hindu Culture") Karma Lekshe Tsomo, a professor of theology and a nun in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition, says, “There are no moral absolutes in Buddhism and it is recognized that ethical decision-making involves a complex nexus of causes and conditions. ‘Buddhism’ encompasses a wide spectrum of beliefs and practices, and the canonical scriptures leave room for a range of interpretations. **All of these are grounded in a theory of intentionality, and individuals are encouraged to analyze issues carefully for themselves … When making moral choices, individuals are advised to examine their motivation–whether aversion, attachment, ignorance, wisdom, or compassion–and to weigh the consequences of their actions in light of the Buddha’s teachings.”

Moral laws may pertain to all of us, but they are “written on our hearts” in different languages, from different cultures, from totally different belief systems. Can you embrace these differences and the fact they they are older than Catholicism, with at least equal legitimacy, soundness and authority?

Limerick
**
 
Hi, Ms Limerick,

As the previous poster told you - this is not a Catholic system. The moral law was written on the hearts of our First Parents - and, that is older then anyone’s system… 😃
limerick said:
Moral laws may pertain to all of us, but they are “written on our hearts” in different languages, from different cultures, from totally different belief systems. Can you embrace these differences and the fact they they are older than Catholicism, with at least equal legitimacy, soundness and authority? Limerick
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Whatever language is used - murder is universally wrong, stealing is universally wrong, cheating is universally wrong. For those societies that would decide that to murder, steal and cheat are ‘ok’ … they have this problem with staying around to convey their new found immoral law.

Again, it is not the Catholic Moral Law - just the moral law and it can be embrased by all because God put it in each of our hearts. This does not mean it can not be up-rooted … but the depravity that results tends to be ultimately self-correcting… :eek:

God bless,
 
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