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benedictus2
Guest
And under the laws of ancient Judaism, a woman who commits adultery is to be stoned to death. So where does that leave your argument.
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Disciple96
Guest
I think that by now every Catholic must be aware that there is no valid medical reason for killing a baby. There is no valid reason to procure or to perform an abortion. There are, however, people who want to kill babies and who want to perform abortions.
Some people do not want to accept the consequences of their actions and so they create other consequences, which are far worse than the original ones. Other people claim that they just want to make money and they think that’s a valid reason to do whatever they want to, including killing babies and scarring women.
Those are “reasons” but they are not and cannot be valid ones. My reason is not necessarily valid just because I have one. Making the moral choice very often means choosing to face a very difficult situation. It may even mean giving up something or giving up a lot. It may even mean giving up one’s own life. This is what Christians are supposed to understand. It’s the way we are supposed to live, the way we are supposed to follow. Christ gave His life for us and showed us how to pick up our crosses and follow Him. All the way to Calvary. Where we do not sacrifice somebody else but empty ourselves instead. There is no way around it. Abortion is sacrificing someone else instead of oneself.
And that is not the Christian way at all. Not at all, at all, at all.
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benedictus2
Guest
Great, great, great post.:clapping::clapping::clapping:
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tqualey
Guest
Hi, PastGrandKnight,
In all charity, and in my opinion, you have really missed the Church’s teaching in this area. Your continued repitition of your point is unnecessary.
V.J.!
God bless
In all charity, and in my opinion, you have really missed the Church’s teaching in this area. Your continued repitition of your point is unnecessary.
V.J.!
God bless
D
Disciple96
Guest
Thank you, benedictus2.
I feel strongly about this and I have taken a vow to work for the pro-life cause. I have vowed never to forget, never to be passive and never to keep silent. I wish I could do more. I wish all Catholics would stand up and really be Catholic. I wish they would study what the Church teaches and try to understand and would accept what being Catholic really means. I wish they would realize what a truly beautiful gift the Church is, that she is our loving mother. And she is a demanding mother. Many people leave the Church because they are not willing to accept those demands, not willing to live up to what being Catholic means.
Christ gives everything to us, everything we need to live in Divine Sonship with Him. And all He asks in return from us is…
Everything.
That’s what it means to be Catholic Christian. To be willing to give up everything. Everything we have, everything we have. And follow Him. That is being Christian. To do any less is to kid oneself. To deceive oneself. It is possible to deceive others and even oneself for years at a time, even a whole lifetime. It is not possible to deceive God. Whoever pretends to be Catholic Christian and yet maintains that abortion is an acceptable solution is practicing deceit on a mind-boggling level. And a soul-killing one.
But God will not be deceived.
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PastGrandKnight
Guest
As you wrote:
“Whoever pretends to be Catholic Christian and yet maintains that abortion is an acceptable solution is practicing deceit on a mind-boggling level.”
Except that this woman was not Roman Catholic. She is Orthodox Jewish, so the laws of the Roman Catholic Church do not apply to her. She has one set of laws to observe: The laws of Judaism. If you would expect her to ignore those laws just because the Church says otherwise, then you are seriously wrong. None of us have any business forcing OUR religious beliefs down the throats of anyone else.
When you see the words “always”, or “never” attached to any sort of question, antennae should go up immediately. Once there is even a single valid reason, then the answer to this question must be “no”.
I would have little or no respect for someone who professes a religion, and then decides to ignore the teachings of that religion. She opted to obey what she had been taught by her rabbi and probably by her parents as well.
As for myself, I am pro-life, and there is not question of that in my mind. Yet, it is not for me to tell someone of another faith that they should be obeying the teachings of my faith.
You know what’s really sad about this is that we are even having this discussion at all. As long as the question is worded as it is, then the discussion is impractical. What works for one religion may or may not work for another. It just depends on the teachings of each religion. Hers taught her that she had to defend herself, and do all she could to live. Those who see otherwise seemingly would just bvlandly tell her to die, and to heck with her. I’m sorry, but I don’t see it that way. She has a right to live, too, and I ask that you never forget that!
Have a nice day.
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tqualey
Guest
Hi, PastGrandKnight,
I have this mental picture of a larger herd of horses thundering across the valley - and this one lone zebra. Your desire to discuss the zebra to the virtual exclusion of the herd is more then curious. Truly, if there is any other way to champion this Orthodox Jewish position - it will surprise me.
But, you did mention something that I think is both quite distressingly serious and significant:
There really are some absolute values that we as human beings need to identify with.
God bless,
I have this mental picture of a larger herd of horses thundering across the valley - and this one lone zebra. Your desire to discuss the zebra to the virtual exclusion of the herd is more then curious. Truly, if there is any other way to champion this Orthodox Jewish position - it will surprise me.
But, you did mention something that I think is both quite distressingly serious and significant:
Our religion (among others) teaches that armed robbery is wrong, murder is wrong, theft is wrong, adultery is wrong, fornication is wrong, drunkeness is wrong… and, we will draw the line at abortion? There is a relativism that is well entrenched in our society that basically tells to go along with the others, leave well-enough alone, to get along, go along, etc. Our society is fully engaged in gathering the fruits of this ‘hands-off’ approach to modern life.
There really are some absolute values that we as human beings need to identify with.
God bless,
P
PastGrandKnight
Guest
I presume the “zebra” is the Orthodox Jew. That being the only logical possibility, I must refer back to the original question: “Is abortion EVER justified?” Remember that I was not the one who posed the question. I’m merely providing an answer, and while that answer may not please you or anyone else, that’s not what it’s supposed to do.
You continue to say it is “NEVER” justified, and I’ve given AN instance when it IS. YOUR problem is that you are only seeing one side of the story, and absolutely refuse to consider that there can be any other side. This woman would have died. You just don’t seem able to willing to accept that fact. I don’t like the idea of it, but her own medical people told her she was going to die if she did not abort. It was not a case of ONE doctor saying so, or even “some” doctors saying so. EVERY medical professional involved told her the same thing. Her body would not have been able to stand the physical stress if she had tried to carry the baby to term, or even anywhere near term. She would have died before the baby would have reached a point of viability.
As Moses once said to God when the two were talking: “These are indeed a stiff-necked people”. Moses could well have been referring to you, as you have been quite stiff-necked over this issue, totally refusing to even consider the POSSIBILITY that AN abortion could be justified.
It is clear to me that you would rather see the woman dead, with no chance at all to have children in the future. How “kind” of you to prefer to see her dead. Sorta makes me wonder who taught you anything about showing “mercy”, and it sure shows a total lack of charity on your part.
It also shows me that ther eare still some people who prefer to see Orthodox Jews off the face of the Earth. While I dislike calling someone a bigot, there are times when the shoe fits. This might be one of them.
Have a nice day. The hardness of heart of some of the people in this thread makes me sick.
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tqualey
Guest
Hi, PastGrandKnight,
You really blew it this time…
Hope you get over your sudden illness.
The Catholic Church has taught and continues to teach about the Principle of Double Effect. You may be interested in reading about this. Here’s a link: www83.homepage.villanova.edu/richard.jacobs/MPA%208300/theories/double%20effect.html
Your insistance on maintaining a Jewish principle to the exclusion of everything else when you could have used the Catholic principle of double effect just as easily is curious. The woman’s life would have been spared because she took appropriate action - and this was done to save her life - NOT to abort her unborn child, that was an unfortunate consequence.
Ther is nothing hard hearted or hard headed about applying Catholic principles on a Catholic web page. I think you went off the edge on this and took charity with you.
God bless
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You really blew it this time…
Hope you get over your sudden illness.The Catholic Church has taught and continues to teach about the Principle of Double Effect. You may be interested in reading about this. Here’s a link: www83.homepage.villanova.edu/richard.jacobs/MPA%208300/theories/double%20effect.html
Your insistance on maintaining a Jewish principle to the exclusion of everything else when you could have used the Catholic principle of double effect just as easily is curious. The woman’s life would have been spared because she took appropriate action - and this was done to save her life - NOT to abort her unborn child, that was an unfortunate consequence.
Ther is nothing hard hearted or hard headed about applying Catholic principles on a Catholic web page. I think you went off the edge on this and took charity with you.
God bless
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PastGrandKnight
Guest
Sorry, but in 31 years of being a member of the Roman Catholic Church, I’ve never heard ofHi, PastGrandKnight,
You really blew it this time…
The Catholic Church has taught and continues to teach about the Principle of Double Effect. You may be interested in reading about this. Here’s a link: www83.homepage.villanova.edu/richard.jacobs/MPA%208300/theories/double%20effect.html
Your insistance on maintaining a Jewish principle to the exclusion of everything else when you could have used the Catholic principle of double effect just as easily is curious. The woman’s life would have been spared because she took appropriate action - and this was done to save her life - NOT to abort her unborn child, that was an unfortunate consequence.
Ther is nothing hard hearted or hard headed about applying Catholic principles on a Catholic web page. I think you went off the edge on this and took charity with you.
God bless
//////////////////
the principle of “double effect”. In any event, the purpose of the abortion was NOT to terminate an innocent human life. It was to save HER life, and I thought THAT fact was understood quite clearly. I did not believe it was necessary to explain something that should have been clear to everyone from the beginning.
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GodLovesTheSpek
Guest
PastGrand…
Put some faith in the faith. Ultimately, we do not know if she would have died nor the baby – that is God’s will. Judism over the years has splintered into various views on abortion and not all are in agreement. That sends up “red flags” as they grapple with Truth.
As a professed Catholic you are obligated to accept, by faith, the teachings of the Church (the Magistarium) and the Pope – this isn’t “The Catholic Side Of Things” – it is God’s church as established by Jesus Christ and all Truth comes from Him – there is no other. You are also obligated to bear true witness and defend attacks against those teachings. The teachings are very clear and will not change. You propose she is bound by a different set of teachings, you however are not, and as a person of claimed Catholic stature and responsibility you are entrusted with even more to make sure the brethren are well-informed – not with your feelings but the teachings of the church body you agreed to be part of. If you are truly concerned about Justice, then let God take care of it. If you have possibly been the recipient of incorrect or conflicting teachings within the Catholic Church or like most, still in process of forming faith, you are urged to read Evangelium Vitae: vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25031995_evangelium-vitae_en.html
As for the woman. She made a mistake. However, we are not beyond forgiveness or understanding and mercy and neither is God. Catholics in communion and well-formed conscience do not condemn her we must love her. We must show mercy, we must help her and to her credit she took prudent steps so that, perhaps, she is not faced with such a dilemma again. Maybe through that changing of lifestyle habits is the good that emerges from this tragedy.
Put some faith in the faith. Ultimately, we do not know if she would have died nor the baby – that is God’s will. Judism over the years has splintered into various views on abortion and not all are in agreement. That sends up “red flags” as they grapple with Truth.
As a professed Catholic you are obligated to accept, by faith, the teachings of the Church (the Magistarium) and the Pope – this isn’t “The Catholic Side Of Things” – it is God’s church as established by Jesus Christ and all Truth comes from Him – there is no other. You are also obligated to bear true witness and defend attacks against those teachings. The teachings are very clear and will not change. You propose she is bound by a different set of teachings, you however are not, and as a person of claimed Catholic stature and responsibility you are entrusted with even more to make sure the brethren are well-informed – not with your feelings but the teachings of the church body you agreed to be part of. If you are truly concerned about Justice, then let God take care of it. If you have possibly been the recipient of incorrect or conflicting teachings within the Catholic Church or like most, still in process of forming faith, you are urged to read Evangelium Vitae: vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25031995_evangelium-vitae_en.html
As for the woman. She made a mistake. However, we are not beyond forgiveness or understanding and mercy and neither is God. Catholics in communion and well-formed conscience do not condemn her we must love her. We must show mercy, we must help her and to her credit she took prudent steps so that, perhaps, she is not faced with such a dilemma again. Maybe through that changing of lifestyle habits is the good that emerges from this tragedy.
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PastGrandKnight
Guest
You say “She made a mistake”. That may be true if she is of the Roman Catholic religion. However, she is Orthodox Jewish,so she has her own set of teachings to follow. It is not our place to tell Orthodox Jews how to believe or how to act when it comes to the issue of abortion… or any other religiously-based issue. I would suggest that she is just as entitled to her beliefs as we are to ours, and none of us have the right to suggest that “She made a mistake”. Under her teachings, no mistake was made. She did what she had to do in order to preserve her life, whether we like it or not.
I think this has gone on long enough, however, so I’m going to step aside and let others discuss this issue.
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tqualey
Guest
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tqualey
Guest
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Norminha
Guest
GodLovesTheSpek
True! The Tablets of the Law given by God to Moses contain the 10 Commandments. The fifth commandment said then and it is still clear today as: You shall not kill
Remember that the same God of the OT and of the NT, the same of yesterday, today and for ever, that God, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, our Savior addressed many times to the multitudes the same command. He said, He didn’t come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it and He did. He did not change one bit within the Commandments, instead He gave us a new one “To love one another as He has loved us.” How did He loved us? He also said: The servant is not better than His Master; wherever his Master is, there is His servant. My Master is on the cross.
If killing an innocent human in the womb of his own mother does not fit the fifth commandment, then something is terribly wrong with God, right? Can God, total perfection, make mistakes? Can He change His mind to accommodate our life styles or conveniences? I don’t think so.
Didn’t our Blessed Mother, a Jewish girl, when she was facing so many hardships from the beginning to the end of her pregnancy, care so tenderly for her tiny baby inside of her? This is the best example I have of Judaism.
Also, why Holy Mother Church has proclaimed St. Gemma as the patron of the unborn, in this century!? She, as a doctor herself, when her doctor advised her of the peril of her own life, she choose the life of her innocent child she held in her womb. She, unselfishly gave her life so that her daughter can live. Is this teaching a hoax?
Aren’t we Catholics suppose to follow the teaching of Jesus Christ, without compromising, without buts? I think we are obligated to followed His teachings without reserves as Fr. Corapi would say "in season and out of season; convenient or inconvenient."
Please, correct me if I was wrong, it is possible that the enemy may be putting wrong teachings inside of my mind. Our job is not to condemn anyone, but to be merciful towards our ignorant brethren and guide them to the LIFE, the TRUTH and the WAY.
True! The Tablets of the Law given by God to Moses contain the 10 Commandments. The fifth commandment said then and it is still clear today as: You shall not kill
Remember that the same God of the OT and of the NT, the same of yesterday, today and for ever, that God, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, our Savior addressed many times to the multitudes the same command. He said, He didn’t come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it and He did. He did not change one bit within the Commandments, instead He gave us a new one “To love one another as He has loved us.” How did He loved us? He also said: The servant is not better than His Master; wherever his Master is, there is His servant. My Master is on the cross.
If killing an innocent human in the womb of his own mother does not fit the fifth commandment, then something is terribly wrong with God, right? Can God, total perfection, make mistakes? Can He change His mind to accommodate our life styles or conveniences? I don’t think so.
Didn’t our Blessed Mother, a Jewish girl, when she was facing so many hardships from the beginning to the end of her pregnancy, care so tenderly for her tiny baby inside of her? This is the best example I have of Judaism.
Also, why Holy Mother Church has proclaimed St. Gemma as the patron of the unborn, in this century!? She, as a doctor herself, when her doctor advised her of the peril of her own life, she choose the life of her innocent child she held in her womb. She, unselfishly gave her life so that her daughter can live. Is this teaching a hoax?
Aren’t we Catholics suppose to follow the teaching of Jesus Christ, without compromising, without buts? I think we are obligated to followed His teachings without reserves as Fr. Corapi would say "in season and out of season; convenient or inconvenient."
Please, correct me if I was wrong, it is possible that the enemy may be putting wrong teachings inside of my mind. Our job is not to condemn anyone, but to be merciful towards our ignorant brethren and guide them to the LIFE, the TRUTH and the WAY.
G
GodLovesTheSpek
Guest
As Catholics we have been appointed and entrusted with the Fullness of Truth and that Truth continues to be revealed through the Magisterium, Papal Encyclicals in conjunction with Holy Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Others, perhaps through no fault of their own but, more likely our own fault, have not been revealed the Fullness of Truth. It can be said with Fullness of Truth as revealed to us (not by of our own creation), ultimately, abortion is a mistake, a Lie, an intrinsic evil. It is what it is. This isn’t to “Lord” it over anyone or to be used as a hateful weapon. It is Truth and it is our responsibility to proclaim it such that all would hear because we love our brothers and sisters.
We are not to condemn or proclaim, ultimately, the gravity of the sin of the individual. Mitigating circumstances such as knowledge or the lack of, act of the will, general moral condition and even physical condition are huge factors when it comes to personal accountability. Final Judgment will sort this out for the person. What we can do is pray that His will be done.
We are not to condemn or proclaim, ultimately, the gravity of the sin of the individual. Mitigating circumstances such as knowledge or the lack of, act of the will, general moral condition and even physical condition are huge factors when it comes to personal accountability. Final Judgment will sort this out for the person. What we can do is pray that His will be done.
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Disciple96
Guest
It is utterly ridiculous to assert that murder can be legitimized by any religion. The question is not merely of one religious practice as opposed to another differing practice or theological point. The question is whether or not killing a child in the womb is murder. And it is murder. There is no way to rationalize it, no honest way. Murder is murder is murder. It does not matter one little bit what religion I claim, it does not make any difference if I say that my religious teachers tell me that murder is allowed. Murder is still murder and it goes against the commandment not to kill the innocent person and it is also illegal. That abortion is legal in so many places in the world is not a sign that it is ethical or moral or a legitimate good to be sought, but that our moral knowledge has sunk to an all-time low in almost every religion and denomination on the planet.
Except for one. And that is the Catholic Church. And even in the Church we have people who refuse to see, refuse to listen, refuse to hear, refuse to understand what should be so apparent as to not even need to be said: that killing a baby is the most heinous, atrocious and absolutely disgusting and deplorable act imaginable. That so many people deny that truth does not affect that truth whatsoever. It does, however, affect their lives, their souls and the lives and souls of their friends, families and the victims of their actions.
Abortion is murder. Period. Always. Everywhere. There is no valid reason to perform it or to procure it. Ever.
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PastGrandKnight
Guest
You wrote the following:GodLovesTheSpek
True! The Tablets of the Law given by God to Moses contain the 10 Commandments. The fifth commandment said then and it is still clear today as: You shall not kill
Remember that the same God of the OT and of the NT, the same of yesterday, today and for ever, that God, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, our Savior addressed many times to the multitudes the same command. He said, He didn’t come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it and He did. He did not change one bit within the Commandments, instead He gave us a new one “To love one another as He has loved us.” How did He loved us? He also said: The servant is not better than His Master; wherever his Master is, there is His servant. My Master is on the cross.
If killing an innocent human in the womb of his own mother does not fit the fifth commandment, then something is terribly wrong with God, right? Can God, total perfection, make mistakes? Can He change His mind to accommodate our life styles or conveniences? I don’t think so.
Didn’t our Blessed Mother, a Jewish girl, when she was facing so many hardships from the beginning to the end of her pregnancy, care so tenderly for her tiny baby inside of her? This is the best example I have of Judaism.
Also, why Holy Mother Church has proclaimed St. Gemma as the patron of the unborn, in this century!? She, as a doctor herself, when her doctor advised her of the peril of her own life, she choose the life of her innocent child she held in her womb. She, unselfishly gave her life so that her daughter can live. Is this teaching a hoax?
Aren’t we Catholics suppose to follow the teaching of Jesus Christ, without compromising, without buts? I think we are obligated to followed His teachings without reserves as Fr. Corapi would say "in season and out of season; convenient or inconvenient."
Please, correct me if I was wrong, it is possible that the enemy may be putting wrong teachings inside of my mind. Our job is not to condemn anyone, but to be merciful towards our ignorant brethren and guide them to the LIFE, the TRUTH and the WAY.
“True! The Tablets of the Law given by God to Moses contain the 10 Commandments. The fifth commandment said then and it is still clear today as: You shall not kill.”
It is clear to me that you really do not know the correct translation from Hebrew to English. There is no such Commandment as “Thou shalt not kill”. CORRECTLY translated from Hebrew into English, it reads as follows: “Thou shalt not MURDER”.
So now you should ask “What’s the difference? Aren’t they the same?” Obviously, the answer is “no”. “Murder” is the termination of an innocent human life…WITH MALICE AFORETHOUGHT"!
Now, I’m not going to suggest that you are wise enough to understand the difference, but I will HOPE so, especially in this case. She had no malice towards the unborn child. Her intention was to save her life so that she would be able to continue to live. That’s not “murder” in any sense of the word. She was preserving her human life, and in so doing, was able to bring forth other human lives. (Or would you prefer that her twins should be terminated only because you would not allow them the priviledge of being born? Are their lives meaningless? I don’t think so!)
Furthermore, while YOU might have only ten commandments to obey, Jews have 613: the original Ten, and 603 others. God never abolished any of those laws, so Jews are still obliged to obey them. So, once again, it is obvious that each religion has it’s own principles, and any adherent to a religion who does not follow the laws of that religion does not deserve to continue to be a member of that religion.
You also speak of “Holy Mother Church”, and that is all well and good. However, the woman I’ve been talking about is not part of that Church. She’s Jewish, and none of us have the “right” to force non-Jewish laws down the throats of Jews.
Quite frankly, the total lack of understanding of Jewish traditions and laws on the part of non-Jews is appalling. You think that because Jesus and Mary were Jewish, that gives you all the “authority” you need to shove Christian laws down their throats. Sorry, but I just cannot buy into that.
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Disciple96
Guest
Christ did not say He came to preach to Christians. He said He was/is The Truth. The Way. The Life. He said this to Jews. That there are those who refuse to acknowledge Him as The Truth does not make Him any less the Truth. The Law against murder is not a Christian law. It is God’s Law and binding upon every human on earth in every place and time. Jews and Gentiles alike. And in the international kingdom that is the universal Church, there is no distinction any more between Jew and Gentile. We are all under God’s Law. You, me and everybody else who has ever lived, is alive now or ever will live. That’s the universal part of it. We can’t force everybody to be Catholic, nor do we want to. But God is God, and He is the Ruler of all creation. So no one is not under His rule. No one.
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tqualey
Guest
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