Is abortion ever justified?

[mulligan59]

It is difficult to beleive that the Pope and the Vatican II Council are wrong, but you are right. Where is your authority to determine that the Pope cannot make these declarations? did not Our Lord give the keys to the Pope and not to you?

We’ve been asked to leave this thread, but I’m happy to continue the discussion if you tell me where.

But one more answer: It is the very nature of defined dogmas, the notion that truth is unchanging. The Church taught explicitly that NO ONE could change the understanding of a previoulsy defined matter. Get a copy of the Papal Coronation Oath. Read what all of the Popes up until John XXIII (who refused to take it) swore to uphold.

One of the biggest sources of confusion today is that people have no foundation in basic Catechesis. No real understanding of dogmas. It is all about feelings today, and this is actually encouraged while sound logical analysis is discouraged. It is all emotional. People actually say things like “well MY God would understand” or whatever. But God is who He is, and not what each person wants or imagines Him to be.

 

[ayet]

First I’d like to state that abortions performed due to rape are .01%, that’s one-tenth of one percent. So it sort of drives me nuts when people use the rape scenario as a justification to keep abortion legal.

However, it is still the killing of an innocent human life. This life has been granted by God and it certainly is no fault of the baby’s that this rape has occurred. The difference betwen your scenario of the kidney patient and the raped woman is the kidney patient is a sick man lying in bed and needing to be kept alive by unnatural means. The baby in the womb is a fresh new life and is kept alive by the most natural means there is - his/her MOTHER.

Rape is a horrible, violent, sad and unfortunate event, but in the teensy-weensy percentage of cases where it results in a pregnancy, I still do not see how the MOTHER should have the right to extinguish this new life growing within her. What is wrong with placing the child up for adoption?

when iam in high school my friend was rape by bad boys , she cry for it and she ask for help . i say the child doesn’t have sin to you but those man. God give rules for us to guide thou shall not kill. in your case let the child be born if the child flash back for what happen then give him/her to an orphanage who can help for that child.

 

[ayet]

it cannot be justified
for I am once a victim.
my mom, try me to be abbort but then God has a reason for me to live.
I am not a child because my mom was rape nor my mom was opcorn:a drug addict etc…
my mom was ex-convent, she was good and precious. I am 6th child of the family but then it was mysterious reason why? my mom was pro-life and abortion was not be ever justice in any scenario for I believe that God was the Author of our life.

 

[narrow_path]

I concur with the majority of thought on this thread - abortion is always wrong. The forced rape of a 9 year old girl is a most unfortunate situation. However, the child should not be required his or her life BASED ON HOW HE OR SHE WAS CONCEIVED. I applaud politicians who continue to be unashamedly pro-life like Alan Keyes (whom I voted for in the past). So, one does not obviate the pain of rape (or incest for that matter) by compunding it with MURDERING an inncent preborn child. It is amazing to me that considering the scientific age that we live in, people still continue to deny that the embryo contains ALL of the necessary characteristics for the existence of biological life (development, metabolism, cell reproduction, the ability to react to stimuli). And, a zygote has a completely distinct genetic code! Therefore, human personhood does not depend on location, size, or level of dependence. If that were the case, the pro-choice crowd should be campaigning for murdering a 6 month old in the crib. But we do not see that happening because even they can decipher that much. Ironically, there IS NO DIFFERENCE whatsoever. Whether preborn or in the crib, it is still murder.

Although I am anything but Catholic, I am also as pro-life as they come.

 

[BiologyBrain]

1. I think the Catholic church needs to take consideration if a woman is raped, and ends up pregnant. I think she should have the right to abort without being discramanated by her own church.
2. What if this happened to you:

A woman walking home from work in New York City is attacked by a rapist. The man uses a wash cloth and covers her mouth so people cannot hear her scream. She is then knocked out… later she is found on the side of an alley way with all her clothes torn off of her, she can only suspect the worst. The police finally find her… her husband is terrified that she was raped… his woman… scared for life. 2 weeks later they found out she was pregnant. Now, answer me this… if YOUR wife had gotten pregnant… would you not have gone into a stage of denial?! The woman wants terribly to abort. She thinks that it would be a mistake if she lets the child inside her wound let live, not knowing if she would love the child, i child she did not want and did not plan for. Her husband decides not to abort but leave the child to be born, when the child is born, he looks so much like the man that raped he wife she cannot stand to see the child, for she gets flash backs of that terrible day she was raped. 13 years later the child is miserable… he thinks he is a soul sent from hell. When asked who was his father… his mom tells him he was a man who raped her. With that the child is petrified, he then commits suicide. Knowing that it was not his moms fault… and that deep down he parents never really wanted this out come…SO NOW, IF THIS HAPPENED TO YOU, WOULD YOU NOT TAKE IN CONSIDERATION FOR ABORTION?

Two wrongs don’t make a right. The abortion does not remove the spector of abuse from the woman’s psyche. The abortion can actually make the situation worse b/c the guilt associated w/ rape (although there should be no guilt assigned to the victim, most victims feel guilty for one reason or another) is compounded w/ the guilt of abortion. Most cases of post-abortion syndrome involve women who already had a predilection for emotional/mental distress. Being raped can easily bring about post-traumatic syndrome which, when compounded w/ abortion can lead to further issues - not the resolution of the issue.

The compassionate option is to allow the baby to live & give it up for adoption. If the mother cannot stand to see the child and has flashbacks, she should remove herself/the child from the situation. There are countless couples waiting w/ open arms for children. If the mother chose to keep the baby even through the pain/struggle, she should undergo counselling and not be so harsh with her own child. The fact that the child was conceived in rape does not make the child bad. Anyone who cares for someone who’s been raped or is the product of rape knows that’s the first thing that needs to be established. The rape is not the woman’s fault, nor is it the child’s fault. The fault lies directly on the rapists back.

My mother was raped - not violently as you described, but it wounded her deeply. She was only 14-15. She was very frightened & had to see her rapist quite frequently. He was never officially charged/prosecuted. She carried the baby to term. Her parents adopted the baby and he was raised as my mom’s (his mom’s) brother. He knew early on that he was adopted & that my mom had a special place in his life (beyond that of sister). However, he knew he was cherished and loved both by his adoptive parents & his siblings. He looks remarkably like his father. It was difficult for my mother, but she knows the right choice was made. He deserved to live & he is a wonderful man, father, husband, brother, & uncle. There were times that his conception bothered him, but he had been raised to confront the issue up front. **He was reassured that genetics do not make the man - the circumstances and decisions made make the man. **

They lived in a very small town. My mother was ostracized by the community and to this day there are some who can only remember this one bad act committed on her. My mom holds her head up high and proud, as does my uncle. They did nothing wrong and have done much right, starting w/ living their lives to the best of their ability. Some would have taken that from them. Did my uncle not deserve to live just b/c his father made a bad choice? I am very grateful not everyone feels that way!

 

[awantz]

1. I think the Catholic church needs to take consideration if a woman is raped, and ends up pregnant. I think she should have the right to abort without being discramanated by her own church.
2. What if this happened to you:

A woman walking home from work in New York City is attacked by a rapist. The man uses a wash cloth and covers her mouth so people cannot hear her scream. She is then knocked out… later she is found on the side of an alley way with all her clothes torn off of her, she can only suspect the worst. The police finally find her… her husband is terrified that she was raped… his woman… scared for life. 2 weeks later they found out she was pregnant. Now, answer me this… if YOUR wife had gotten pregnant… would you not have gone into a stage of denial?! The woman wants terribly to abort. She thinks that it would be a mistake if she lets the child inside her wound let live, not knowing if she would love the child, i child she did not want and did not plan for. Her husband decides not to abort but leave the child to be born, when the child is born, he looks so much like the man that raped he wife she cannot stand to see the child, for she gets flash backs of that terrible day she was raped. 13 years later the child is miserable… he thinks he is a soul sent from hell. When asked who was his father… his mom tells him he was a man who raped her. With that the child is petrified, he then commits suicide. Knowing that it was not his moms fault… and that deep down he parents never really wanted this out come…SO NOW, IF THIS HAPPENED TO YOU, WOULD YOU NOT TAKE IN CONSIDERATION FOR ABORTION?

GOD BLESS YOU ALL. :clapping:

I was rapped and I wanted to keep the baby.

 

[awantz]

Probably not “everyone”, but certainly those who knew that they were contradicting a previous definition. This is how the Church defines its membership: Baptism is the gateway. Holy Mother Church claims all the Baptized. Therefore for example Protestant Children are in fact members of the Church if they are Baptized with a valid form (as most probably are).

So, that means I’m a member of the Catholic church? I was baptized with a valid form.

They (protestants) don’t fall outside of the Church until they are taught a specific dogma (such as the perpetual virginity of Mary which I think all protestants and perhaps even some “orthodox” reject), and then refuse to believe it.

I don’t know anyone who believes Mary wasn’t a virgin.

The primary problem most protestants have (since they are mostly quite ignorant) with salvation is that they have no means to be restored to grace should they sin after Baptism.

I ask God for forgiveness and He forgives me, to remember it no more.

Christ however gave the Apostles to power to forgive sins for a reason. He wasn;t just wsting his breath. It is the means. It is the purpose of the Church.

I can go to my Pastor and I have.

However “obstinate heresy” does. An obstinate heretic rejects a dogma he has been taught. Certainly a man who had a pre-vatican II education as a Doctor of Catholic Theology, who proclaims something such as “Through the Incarnation Christ united himself forever to everyman”, would be an obstinate heretic. Some young priest who has had a woefully inadequate education or formation in the post Vatican II era may not be. He may indeed be ignorant. It is actually amazing to discover hwo uninformed some of these men are, one wonders wht they studied in all of those years in the seminary.

My, Catholic, husband was born during Vatican II. Is he excommunicated, because he believes Vatican II?

Follow me?

Kinda.

 

[mulligan59]

So, that means I’m a member of the Catholic church? I was baptized with a valid form.

You were at the moment of your Baptism. I cannot speak to your situation now, it is however possible.

They (protestants) don’t fall outside of the Church until they are taught a specific dogma (such as the perpetual virginity of Mary).

I don’t know anyone who believes Mary wasn’t a virgin.

All Christians that i know of beleive in the Virgin Birth. However the Catholic Church teaches that Mary is a perpetual virgin. I think virtually all protestants reject this. But see, since you apparently didn’t know this, you are not obstinate (or weren’t) on this point.

The primary problem most protestants have (since they are mostly quite ignorant) with salvation is that they have no means to be restored to grace should they sin after Baptism.

I ask God for forgiveness and He forgives me, to remember it no more.

Christ however gave the Apostles to power to forgive sins for a reason. He wasn;t just wsting his breath. It is the means. It is the purpose of the Church.

I can go to my Pastor and I have.

Catholics beleive that it is possible to have your sins forgiven IF no priest is available through “perfect contrition”. However the sacrament of Confession is not to be trated disdainfully. It is the preferred method as it was clearly instituted by Christ. You pastor is not a priest and does not pretend to be. Two aspects of the priesthood protestantism specifically and explicitly reject are the power to forgive sins and transubstantiation.

However “obstinate heresy” does. An obstinate heretic rejects a dogma he has been taught. Certainly a man who had a pre-vatican II education as a Doctor of Catholic Theology, who proclaims something such as “Through the Incarnation Christ united himself forever to everyman”, would be an obstinate heretic. Some young priest who has had a woefully inadequate education or formation in the post Vatican II era may not be. He may indeed be ignorant. It is actually amazing to discover hwo uninformed some of these men are, one wonders wht they studied in all of those years in the seminary.

My, Catholic, husband was born during Vatican II. Is he excommunicated, because he believes Vatican II?

I don’t know your husband’s heart. He may simply not know how Vatican II contradicts the prior teachings of the Church. All I’m saying is that the Vatican II religion is different than the Catholic Religion.

 

[ghrt]

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[ryecroft]

RWMorris
Regular Member
Prayer Warrior Join Date: October 12, 2005
Posts: 2,567
Religion: Catholic

Re: Is abortion ever justified?

---

The only scenario where abortion would ever be consider legit to me, is if the physical life of the mother was truly 100% threatened by the pregnancy. From what I’ve read such situations are so completely rare as to be almost non-existent.

Abortion should be the same, “so completely rare as to be almost non-existent”.

This is what bugs me about this - people want to know that the mother has 100% chance of dying - but generally by the time you know that you have 100% chance of the mother dying, the mother is dead - sometimes the fetus is viable, sometimes not. I really believe desiring to know for 100% certain that the mother will die is unreal - for me, if my doctor says I will more than likely die, or a relative of mine is more than likely to die like my mother or someone that I care about, that’s good enough for me. I don’t believe that Doctor’s have anything to gain by saying that a mother is likely to die - of course if you’re pregnant and trying to carry to term than the doctor will do everything he/she can do. Many seem to think that if other opinions are gotten that a different decision can be made - there isn’t always time to get another opinion in situations such as these. Families - that’s to say mothers and fathers need to have what their decisions would be in difficult situations already laid out. There are too many emotions in play otherwise. I know with my pregnancies if we ever get in a situation where my life is in danger and it is unlikely that I will live if the pregnancy continues, if the fetus is not viable then my life will be chosen first. If the fetus is old enough and it’s possible to get it out without killing me, than that will be done. I am not prepared to leave my husband, my family to try to continue a pregnancy that would likely kill me. As I said, this is a decision that families need to make prior to these problems - it’s like having a DNR - you have to deal with it prior to something actually being necessary. Just to note, I hope I never have to (or my husband has to) make that choice again. I really hope I’m able to bring a healthy child into the world.

 

[denwiles]

We all know that abortion is wrong. But consider the following scenario: A man is dying of kidney failure and must find a kidney somewhere. But he cannot, so his wife pays a mobster to kidnap and drug a young woman. The mobster knows an excellent surgeon who can be bought and the doctor surgically connects the woman to the man so that the sick man can now live since he can tap off of the kidney of the woman. The woman then wakes up from the surgery and finds herself surgically connected by tubes to this sick man who needs her kidney. It is possible for the woman to easily remove these tubes any time she wants and disconnect the life support of the man, which will then result in the instant death of the man to whom she has been connected.
Now does this woman have a moral obligation to keep this man alive ? Or is she morally justified in removing these tubes?
What does this have to do with abortion? Consider the case of a woman who has been forcibly raped? There are differences between the two cases, but are there not some similarities which may be relevant when considering the morality of the actions of removing the tubes versus the morality of an abortion in the case of violent rape?

You never know that baby could grow up and be a great priest for the Lord. Let live and let God. Abortion is murder, Period! God Bless

 

[BiologyBrain]

This is what bugs me about this - people want to know that the mother has 100% chance of dying - but generally by the time you know that you have 100% chance of the mother dying, the mother is dead - sometimes the fetus is viable, sometimes not. I really believe desiring to know for 100% certain that the mother will die is unreal - for me, if my doctor says I will more than likely die, or a relative of mine is more than likely to die like my mother or someone that I care about, that’s good enough for me. I don’t believe that Doctor’s have anything to gain by saying that a mother is likely to die - of course if you’re pregnant and trying to carry to term than the doctor will do everything he/she can do. Many seem to think that if other opinions are gotten that a different decision can be made - there isn’t always time to get another opinion in situations such as these. Families - that’s to say mothers and fathers need to have what their decisions would be in difficult situations already laid out. There are too many emotions in play otherwise. I know with my pregnancies if we ever get in a situation where my life is in danger and it is unlikely that I will live if the pregnancy continues, if the fetus is not viable then my life will be chosen first. If the fetus is old enough and it’s possible to get it out without killing me, than that will be done. I am not prepared to leave my husband, my family to try to continue a pregnancy that would likely kill me. As I said, this is a decision that families need to make prior to these problems - it’s like having a DNR - you have to deal with it prior to something actually being necessary. Just to note, I hope I never have to (or my husband has to) make that choice again. I really hope I’m able to bring a healthy child into the world.

The problem I see w/ this perspective, from my personal standpoint, is that doctors make mistakes and they most frequently chose the most conservative method of treatment - even if its not necessarily the most necessary and/or best for the patient(s). They are limited by their experience, expectations, training, etc. Many doctors also worry more about the legal aspects than the moral aspects. Doctors do not like to lose patients - period. They also like to make things a bit easier and/or more predictable for themselves. Its not necessarily a bad thing, but it is generally the way it works.

As you indicate, your 1st preference is to try to save both you & your baby. That’s the best option, but it may not be the easiest option. Even a ‘perfect’ pregnancy, delivery, baby doesn’t always end w/ both mother & child living. Horrible high-risk pregnancies, deliveries, and mal-formed babies survive and make out better than the predictions sometimes. Sometimes things happen & they happen for a reason - even though we don’t understand at the time (or ever).

The best option will always be to try everything possible to save both mother & child. The worst option is to kill one so that the other can live, IMO.

 

[RWMorris]

… This is what bugs me about this - people want to know that the mother has 100% chance of dying - but generally by the time you know that you have 100% chance of the mother dying, the mother is dead - sometimes the fetus is viable, sometimes not. I really believe desiring to know for 100% certain that the mother will die is unreal - for me, if my doctor says I will more than likely die, or a relative of mine is more than likely to die like my mother or someone that I care about, that’s good enough for me. …

Doctors often frame their predictions in terms of percentages (or odds). I don’t know why, the average person has no concept of how odds effect their life. Just look at how many play the lottery.

There are very few 100% certainties in life. Where would you draw the line? If the mother has a 90% (9 in 10) chance of dying, would you allow an abortion? How about 50% (5 in 10)? How about 25% (1 in 4)?

 

[bobzills]

Doctors often frame their predictions in terms of percentages (or odds). I don’t know why, the average person has no concept of how odds effect their life. Just look at how many play the lottery.

There are very few 100% certainties in life. Where would you draw the line? If the mother has a 90% (9 in 10) chance of dying, would you allow an abortion? How about 50% (5 in 10)? How about 25% (1 in 4)?

I don’t see how you would obtain these exact percentages. For example, how would you obtain the percentage that a woman has a 91% chance of dying, versus a 89% chance of dying?

 

[ryecroft]

Originally Posted by RWMorris
Doctors often frame their predictions in terms of percentages (or odds). I don’t know why, the average person has no concept of how odds effect their life. Just look at how many play the lottery.

There are very few 100% certainties in life. Where would you draw the line? If the mother has a 90% (9 in 10) chance of dying, would you allow an abortion? How about 50% (5 in 10)? How about 25% (1 in 4)?

I don’t see how you would obtain these exact percentages. For example, how would you obtain the percentage that a woman has a 91% chance of dying, versus a 89% chance of dying?

This is exactly why I included my last post- many seem to be saying, “I would only do this if there was a 100% chance the mother will die” - that’s just very rarely something a doctor would say. That’s why I say this has to be a choice between the parents and the doctor - I’m not happy I had to terminate a pregnancy - and I don’t feel guilty about it, but I’m certainly glad I’m still here to be with my family and try again. Many say to “just deliver” but in many cases, that isn’t possible due to hemmoraging - at least in my case. It’s really easy to say I’d never do that - but until you’re put into that position, I have a very hard time believing that. When I was told, along with my husband, I was so out of it from blood loss that there was very little time to think - just to act and I will not fault my doctor for these circumstances. Prior to having this occur, I was preety anti abortion -but now, I know there are cases where it is necessary if you want to live to try another day.

 

[kage_ar]

You are in the room, your heart is failing. There is a 100% chance you WILL die in the next hour.

The doctor walks in with a 14 year old homeless child. His heart is a perfect match for you. The doctor says “sign this paper and we can harvest his heart, but, hurry, we only have one hour and then you die”.

Do you sign the paper?

 

[ryecroft]

You are in the room, your heart is failing. There is a 100% chance you WILL die in the next hour.

The doctor walks in with a 14 year old homeless child. His heart is a perfect match for you. The doctor says “sign this paper and we can harvest his heart, but, hurry, we only have one hour and then you die”.

Do you sign the paper?

I’ve given you an example that does occur - you’ve given a hypothetical which could never occur - there is no answer to give because that would never happen that way and you know it. I’m a Catholic who has done what we belive is best for our family and we have the backing of a priest whether you agree with him or not. I wouldn’t want to be in the same situation again but if I was, I know that I’d choose the same route as before. God put me here to be a wife to my husband first and foremost - I would like to have children but I’m not going to die for a 4 month old fetus that wouldn’t survive on its own anyway. I’m sorry if what I say offends any of you but it’s what has occured and as I’ve been told by the priest and as I feel, I have no guilt about what we chose to do. I’m greatful that I’m still here with my husband and if we’re given the opportunity to try again, we will.

God Bless

 

[Nino]

one of our daughters adopted a little angel from Colombia several years ago…the mother did not abort…ie :murder the baby,but instead gave it up to adoption!..The little girl is now 7 and everyone loves her…she is a remarkable child of God! To have a world without such a creature is an atrocity!.Aborton is murder plain and simple.the temporary host has not right to kill it…this is a form of slavery where in the owner of another human being has the right to terminate the life of its property…this is what the supreme court did…in changing the deft.of the word…Person…to not include the developing baby it returned slavery back to america…and of course as they well knew…the catch phrase…every baby a wanted baby and no more child abuse.these were the slogans used to defend such a horrible decision. and of course as they well knew…this was all baldergast…we have had more child abuse then ever before since they have inculcated this outdated evil system into our very blood lines…kill whatever you dont like or feel is an inconvenience…Billy Jean King aborted her child so she could finish a tour and another actress has had three so she could continue her movie career…Goldberg I think her name is…and so they have money and trophies but an empty crib…we have many children and grandchildren and not much in the bank…gee are we poor or what!!!

 

[kage_ar]

I’ve given you an example that does occur - you’ve given a hypothetical which could never occur - there is no answer to give because that would never happen that way and you know it.

The situation did happen, it is just that the person was a 4 month old pre born instead of a 14 year old homeless person. I cannot understand how someone can value the life of one child over another.

God put me here to be a wife to my husband first and foremost

God put you here to love and to serve Him foremost, God put you here to get to heaven and to help others get to heaven.

• I would like to have children but I’m not going to die for a 4 month old fetus that wouldn’t survive on its own anyway. I’m sorry if what I say offends any of you but it’s what has occured and as I’ve been told by the priest and as I feel, I have no guilt about what we chose to do. I’m greatful that I’m still here with my husband and if we’re given the opportunity to try again, we will.

God Bless

That sounds so cold. I do not know how to respond.

 

[st_lucy]

I’ve given you an example that does occur - you’ve given a hypothetical which could never occur - there is no answer to give because that would never happen that way and you know it. I’m a Catholic who has done what we belive is best for our family and we have the backing of a priest whether you agree with him or not. I wouldn’t want to be in the same situation again but if I was, I know that I’d choose the same route as before. God put me here to be a wife to my husband first and foremost - I would like to have children but I’m not going to die for a 4 month old fetus that wouldn’t survive on its own anyway. I’m sorry if what I say offends any of you but it’s what has occured and as I’ve been told by the priest and as I feel, I have no guilt about what we chose to do. I’m greatful that I’m still here with my husband and if we’re given the opportunity to try again, we will.

God Bless

I am a little sad for you. As a mother who has seen her beautiful children at four months and younger, I know I would have done anything even given my life for those beautiful children. “Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends.” John 15:13.

I am also very sorry that a priest could ever tell someone that they can choose one life over another simply because one seems less important than the other.