Is abortion ever justified?

[ceciliatherese]

First of all, I wouldn’t consider a site called “evil bible” to be particularly unbiased.

Secondly, every single example given has been taken out of context and/or grossly misunderstood.

Thirdly, what most antiChristians don’t understand is that since God is the author of life, He has the right to take it away as He sees fit. However, NO human being has that right.

thanks jmtowle and wanner.

Well, it’s not that it was biased, it was citing actual scripture passages

You both said that these are misunderstood. Well, could you explain at least one of them to me, then? For example, Numbers 31:17 (Moses) “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every women that hath known man by lying with him.”

 

[jmtowle]

Limerick,

If you are making an honest effort to understand what God’s will is for you personally and your faith doesn’t permit you to accept Catholic teaching then you still can realize salvation in another Christian church.

It has more to do with the reasons you reject the teachings. If your reasoning supports Protestant theology then that’s where you need to seek your Creator. If you reject Catholic teaching because you were injured psychologically at an early age, it may be worth your while to revisit the faith.

There is a wonderful book written by a convert and his wife, who left the Protestant church to become Catholic. The book is titled “Rome Sweet Home” by Scott and Kimberly Hahn and it chronicles their faith journey from doubt to conviction. It’s worth a shot.

If you are not able to accept any Christian teaching, remember this; there are those that believe that God / Christ, gives non believers the opportunity to accept Him at the final moments of their life. If you end up in such a scenario, just say yes.

May the Peace of Christ be with us all, always

JT

 

[wanner47]

thanks jmtowle and wanner.

Well, it’s not that it was biased, it was citing actual scripture passages

Do you understand the concept of bias?

Bias means that the the site in question is trying to advance a specific agenda. In this case. the owner of “evilbible.com” is trying to advance the agenda that God is evil, cruel, etc. Thus, it is taking passages of Scripture out of context, as well as failing to misunderstand several concepts about OT Scripture and its relationship to Christianity.

Scripture is not supposed to be read in a vacuum. You need to take into account the cultural norms, traditions, and practices of the time, the intent of the writer, the intended audience, the intended lesson taught by the story, and so forth. This is known as exegesis.

You both said that these are misunderstood. Well, could you explain at least one of them to me, then? For example, Numbers 31:17 (Moses) “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every women that hath known man by lying with him.”

There are several explanations.

1. We aren’t sure that what is recorded in Numbers and other OT passages is meant to be *absolutely literal *history. It’s possible that certain passages were meant as allegory.
2. The writer of the “evilbible.com” site has a fundamental misunderstanding of God and his relationship to all of us, a misunderstanding common to anti-Christians. Often, the claim of the atrocity is God asking for someone to be killed or allowing someone to be killed. As previously stated, God is the author of life; it is His to give and take as He sees fit.

In the case of the Midians, in the passage you cited, God was exercising his justice. The verse right before the one you cited (again, you need to look at context) says:

“Behold, these caused the sons of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, so the plague was among the congregation of the LORD.”

To read more about the conflict with the Midians, go here. It’s long, but extremely thorough. After reading it, I’m sure you can better appreciate why God had exercised His justice in this way (assuming, of course, that this account is literal).

The person at the “evil bible” site obviously has performed zero exegesis, nor does s/he have any idea of the context, nor does s/he have any concept of the nature of God and His relationship to us. I would not advise using it for any information.

 

[ceciliatherese]

Do you understand the concept of bias?

Bias means that the the site in question is trying to advance a specific agenda. In this case. the owner of “evilbible.com” is trying to advance the agenda that God is evil, cruel, etc. Thus, it is taking passages of Scripture out of context, as well as failing to misunderstand several concepts about OT Scripture and its relationship to Christianity.

Scripture is not supposed to be read in a vacuum. You need to take into account the cultural norms, traditions, and practices of the time, the intent of the writer, the intended audience, the intended lesson taught by the story, and so forth. This is known as exegesis.

There are several explanations.

1. We aren’t sure that what is recorded in Numbers and other OT passages is meant to be *absolutely literal *history. It’s possible that certain passages were meant as allegory.
2. The writer of the “evilbible.com” site has a fundamental misunderstanding of God and his relationship to all of us, a misunderstanding common to anti-Christians. Often, the claim of the atrocity is God asking for someone to be killed or allowing someone to be killed. As previously stated, God is the author of life; it is His to give and take as He sees fit.

In the case of the Midians, in the passage you cited, God was exercising his justice. The verse right before the one you cited (again, you need to look at context) says:

“Behold, these caused the sons of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, so the plague was among the congregation of the LORD.”

To read more about the conflict with the Midians, go here. It’s long, but extremely thorough. After reading it, I’m sure you can better appreciate why God had exercised His justice in this way (assuming, of course, that this account is literal).

The person at the “evil bible” site obviously has performed zero exegesis, nor does s/he have any idea of the context, nor does s/he have any concept of the nature of God and His relationship to us. I would not advise using it for any information.

Yes, I do understand the concept of bias.

Thank you for the link, it helped.

 

[DLClark]

At least in theory, but not in fact.

Can you show me from the Bible where abortion is justified?

 

[uther]

**jmtowle:

I did not place myself in jeopardy by exposing myself to Catholic teaching. ** I was placed in jeopardy by my parents.**** You want to talk about abuse of the most innocent? Cradle Catholics are hostages to the notion that once we are exposed to even the tiniest bit of doctrine we are bound by those teachings. We don’t understand it, it is taught poorly to us by do-gooders who want to serve the Lord, we don’t have an inkling of what is true and what was fabricated by Gregory the Great, and it goes on and on and on.

I have been livid about this since I was 15 years old. I don’t think the Church plays fair with Catholics who choose to seek others teachings that make more sense to them. To me it remains a shell game, and God is looking less and less like a loving God every day.

Limerick

So, what was fabricated by Gregory the Great?

 

[c659smith]

Abortion is never justified. Can someone name me a time they believe abortion is justified and not rationalized?

 

[limerick]

So, what was fabricated by Gregory the Great?

**The solid and definitive explanation of Purgatory, perhaps?

Limerick**

 

[wanner47]

**The solid and definitive explanation of Purgatory, perhaps?

Limerick**

Been reading anti-Catholic literature, Limerick?

I opened a new thread responding to this comment so this one doesn’t get any more off-track with your anti-Catholic whoppers.

 

[PastGrandKnight]

Abortion is never justified. Can someone name me a time they believe abortion is justified and not rationalized?

Although I am on the Pro-Life side of the issue, I am not also blinded to the fact that there are sometimes circumstances that are beyond our control, and that call for medical intervention. In this case, one where a woman has developed a serious heart condition, perhaps as a result of a high cholesterol level (in other words, she had a lousy diet, typically American). She found she was pregnant, and I guess she was also diabetic at the same time.
Whatever, her doctor advised her that her heart was not going to be able to withstand the pregnancy beyond 3 months. By the way, not only was she not Roman Catholic, she was not Christian. Therefore, she had a different religious teaching, one that taught her that she had to protect her life (she was Orthodox Jewish). Under her teachings, she was required to abort, and if they wanted more children, to “try again”.
A few years later, fully recovered and healthy, she and her husband became the proud parents of fraternal twins. They always reckoned that one of the twins was her first child, given back to her by her obedience to God’s laws. (Oh, and please don’t try to suggest that Orthodox Jews are not under God’s laws. They most certainly ARE! It is we, as Christians, who have changed those laws, including a bad mistranslation of the Fifth Commandment.
In any case, I believe that what she did was justified,and justifiable. If she did not have that abortion, she would not be alive today to have had those twins. She gave up the one…and wound up with two.

 

[wanner47]

If she did not have that abortion, she would not be alive today to have had those twins.

So you believe that there are things impossible for God, and that there are no such things as miracles?

How do you reconcile that with your Catholic beliefs?

 

[PastGrandKnight]

So you believe that there are things impossible for God, and that there are no such things as miracles?

How do you reconcile that with your Catholic beliefs?

Did I fail to add that the woman was also extremely overweight? She would have had to lose well over 100 pounds…while pregnant! It was amazing that she had become pregnant in the first place. She was in the ICU at her local hospital when she made her decision to change her life.

She now is very much on the slender side, and she runs almost every day (averages about 5 miles per day, but sometimes gets up to 10). Believe me when I say that she was a medical mess at the time, and it surely would have been bad for both of them. She would definitely not have survived.

And remember, while I may have beliefs in miracles, my beliefs are not hers. She is still a practicing Jew, and I respect her for that. You see, I was born Jewish, so I’ve got an idea what she’s had to go through.

Her decision was a wake-up call for her to either change her life while she had a chance, or die otherwise. By doing what she has done since that day, she has chosen Life, and again, I respect her for that.

As for my beliefs as a Roman Catholic, I am comfortable with them. If that were not the case, I would never have earned my screen name in real life.

 

[wanner47]

Did I fail to add that the woman was also extremely overweight? She would have had to lose well over 100 pounds…while pregnant! It was amazing that she had become pregnant in the first place. She was in the ICU at her local hospital when she made her decision to change her life.

She now is very much on the slender side, and she runs almost every day (averages about 5 miles per day, but sometimes gets up to 10). Believe me when I say that she was a medical mess at the time, and it surely would have been bad for both of them. She would definitely not have survived.

And remember, while I may have beliefs in miracles, my beliefs are not hers. She is still a practicing Jew, and I respect her for that. You see, I was born Jewish, so I’ve got an idea what she’s had to go through.

Her decision was a wake-up call for her to either change her life while she had a chance, or die otherwise. By doing what she has done since that day, she has chosen Life, and again, I respect her for that.

As for my beliefs as a Roman Catholic, I am comfortable with them. If that were not the case, I would never have earned my screen name in real life.

So you don’t believe God could have worked a miracle in this case, regardless of the woman’s weight or beliefs?

How do you reconcile that with Catholic teaching?

 

[ryecroft]

Quote:
Originally Posted by PastGrandKnight
If she did not have that abortion, she would not be alive today to have had those twins.

So you believe that there are things impossible for God, and that there are no such things as miracles?
How do you reconcile that with your Catholic beliefs? >> Wanner

I have been in that woman’s situation or one similar to it. I love the idea of miracles and I do believe that they occur but I also believe that God gives us the tools to help our neighbors and ourselves. I did wait as long as I possibly could - longer than the doctors wanted me to wait and maybe I did get a miracle because I lived and did not have to have a hysterectomy. I’m sorry that I wasn’t able to continue the pregnancy but I’ll never feel guilty or ashamed that I have lived and will hopefully be able to have a pregnancy end with a live birth - and I certainly don’t believe this other woman should feel guilty about what she believed she had to do, but I do think she ought to try to get a little healthier before she tries to have another pregnancy.

God Bless

Annie aka Ryecroft

 

[PastGrandKnight]

So you don’t believe God could have worked a miracle in this case, regardless of the woman’s weight or beliefs?

How do you reconcile that with Catholic teaching?

The teachings of the Roman Catholic Church applies to those of us who are members of that Church.

Those teachings, however, do not apply to members of other religions, or other religious teachings.

Can God work miracles? Of course he can. Once in a while he does!

Let’s go one step further, though. Those who are Jewish are not obliged to obey any of the laws of any Christian denomination. They are also not obliged to obey any of the teachings of any other religion. They ARE required to obey the teachings of Judaism, though, and I would have little or no respect for someone who does not adhere to the teachings of his or her own religion.

One must be comfortable in ones own beliefs. I am, in mine, and I presume she still is, in hers. For me to attempt to force my belief system on her or anyone else is morally repugnant, and I just won’t do it.

“Judge not, lest ye be judged”. Therefore, I won’t judge her, and nobody else has any business doing it, either.

By the way, I jumped into this little discussion in answer to the following request:

<<<<<Abortion is never justified. Can someone name me a time they believe abortion is justified and not rationalized?>>>>>

I believe her action was justified. Period.

Have a nice day.

 

[RWMorris]

Can you show me from the Bible where abortion is justified?

I never said abortion is justified. It would help if you read my post in context. My post was a sardonic response to another sardonic post.

 

[wanner47]

The teachings of the Roman Catholic Church applies to those of us who are members of that Church.

Those teachings, however, do not apply to members of other religions, or other religious teachings.

Can God work miracles? Of course he can. Once in a while he does!

Let’s go one step further, though. Those who are Jewish are not obliged to obey any of the laws of any Christian denomination. They are also not obliged to obey any of the teachings of any other religion. They ARE required to obey the teachings of Judaism, though, and I would have little or no respect for someone who does not adhere to the teachings of his or her own religion.

One must be comfortable in ones own beliefs. I am, in mine, and I presume she still is, in hers. For me to attempt to force my belief system on her or anyone else is morally repugnant, and I just won’t do it.

“Judge not, lest ye be judged”. Therefore, I won’t judge her, and nobody else has any business doing it, either.

Have a nice day.

I wasn’t judging ***her ***at all.

I was questioning *your *assertion that a miracle could not have occurred in her case.

It’s also not true about Catholic teaching not applying to her. The natural moral law, written on everyone’s hearts, under which abortion falls, applies to every person, not just Catholics.

With careful medical management, bedrest, etc. it is possible the baby could have been carried longer. IMO they should not have assumed that she would die and killed the baby accordingly. It is good that she was able to have other children, but I wouldn’t assume that God was rewarding her because she killed her first child, even if it was out of an alleged sense of self-defense. I hope she has received His forgiveness, and I’m glad her health situation is better.

 

[PastGrandKnight]

“Miracles” are things which one does not ordinarily expect to happen.

Further, you wrote:
<<<<<It’s also not true about Catholic teaching not applying to her.>>>>>

Let’s clarify something that you seem to be missing here:
She’s Orthodox Jewish. She does not believe in Jesus Christ. She does not believe that Jesus even existed. She has her own beliefs, and it is not for us to TELL her how or what to believe.

The Roman Catholic Church is not empowered to establish beliefs for people of every religion in the world. I’m sure the Hindus would take great offense to Rome’s forcing of their teachings onto Hindu practitioners. Christians would probably feel just as offended if the Hindus tried to do likewise to us!

Each religion has the responsibility for teaching it own tenets to its adherents. No church, mosque, religion, synagogue, or Tepee has any business telling the others that their teachings are wrong. When they start doing that, when they start crossing over that line, then they start to lose credibility insofar as being a “teaching authority” is concerned.

You know, God did not create “religion”, per se. God did give us a set of laws to observe, and historically, when man has crossed over that line, things have not gone well for mankind. “Religion” was created by man, and that is one of it’s inherent problems. Men will disagree with other men, and before long, holy wars break out, often over nothing more than tribal god-like images. No wonder the Commandment said “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven images”.

Anyway, that’s enough typing for today. Have a nice day.

 

[jmtowle]

Past Grand Night,

Using that same reasoning, St. Paul had no business going around the known world attempting to persuade people that Christ is the manifestation of the One True God and the One promised to the Jews as their Messiah.

I think contemporary society places a much higher regard on sensitivity than it does Truth.

If the Catholic Church was founded by Christ the Son of God the Father and there is only One True God, is it better to hold back that information rather than offending another’s erroneous beliefs?

You don’t have to beat people over the head with this Truth you just need to present it in a non confrontational manner. You can lead a horse…

May the Peace of Christ be with us all, always

JT

 

[c659smith]

Although I am on the Pro-Life side of the issue, I am not also blinded to the fact that there are sometimes circumstances that are beyond our control, and that call for medical intervention. In this case, one where a woman has developed a serious heart condition, perhaps as a result of a high cholesterol level (in other words, she had a lousy diet, typically American). She found she was pregnant, and I guess she was also diabetic at the same time.
Whatever, her doctor advised her that her heart was not going to be able to withstand the pregnancy beyond 3 months. By the way, not only was she not Roman Catholic, she was not Christian. Therefore, she had a different religious teaching, one that taught her that she had to protect her life (she was Orthodox Jewish). Under her teachings, she was required to abort, and if they wanted more children, to “try again”.
A few years later, fully recovered and healthy, she and her husband became the proud parents of fraternal twins. They always reckoned that one of the twins was her first child, given back to her by her obedience to God’s laws. (Oh, and please don’t try to suggest that Orthodox Jews are not under God’s laws. They most certainly ARE! It is we, as Christians, who have changed those laws, including a bad mistranslation of the Fifth Commandment.
In any case, I believe that what she did was justified,and justifiable. If she did not have that abortion, she would not be alive today to have had those twins. She gave up the one…and wound up with two.

The queston here is justified as it relates to a viable baby in the womb.

We can rationalize that the mother may lose her life through the pregnancy but no one can say for sure.

We can rationalize that the mother’s life is more imporant but keep in mind that the mother is not defenseless nor an innocent life like that of the baby in the womb.

Remember we are using the word justified.

Justification does not follow religious or moral belief but scientific reasoning.

The first of the scientific reasoning is that the baby at three months in the womb is a human being seperate from that of the mother.

To disagree here is to state for instance that if the baby in the womb is a male, the mother cannot not be both male and female. Scientific fact.

To say that one of the twins she had at a later date is the baby she aborted or a gift from God because of her killing of an innocent life is rationalization on her part and makes no sense surely not justification.

To say the mother not keeping the baby in the womb till the child is viable would have definitively caused the mother to die or that her life is more important because she can have more children. The chance of that would be just an **even steven argument **as so can the child in the womb procreate later in life.

As far as the Jewish Religion telling her to abort is rediculous and without merit or back up from any scripture.

It is for God to Judge this woman’s rationalization not her justification for the abortion of an innocent life.

If she did this not for her own life but for others. If there was no selfishness involved in her decision.

Do you think she was righteous here? For the Tora teaches righteousness.

There is more of a cause for a Jewish woman not to abort a child on could be or might be facts. Righteousness at this point is the Jew’s main pathway way for eternal life.