Is abortion ever justified?

[Des]

MADAME…
You and your specious arguments have gone on long enough. If I can find an “ignore” button somewhere on this site, I will apply it to you and to all of your irrational arguments.

I’m actually male.

Clearly, you don’t give a tinkers damn about the life of this woman, who went through both physical and mental anguish at a bad time of her life. You CANNOT just turn your back on those FACTS, MADAME, but you seem to be doing just that.

Wrong! But I don’t allow for sympathetic reasonings for another’s murder.

Whenever this lady speaks out at Pro-Life events, one of the first things she does is tell her story. She does not mince words, either. (For that fact, neither do you, but at least she has gone through hell and back, which you don’t seem to understand.)

I merely stated that if she is for abortion under certain circumstances, then she’s not 100 percent pro life. You are in some sort of denial about this fact.

Unfortunately, you do not seem to care about those who at least have a CHANCE to survive, and change their lives.

Do not judge sir. For I then will also say you care nothing about the unborn life of the child who gets no decision in the matter. Not one time have you ever shown sympathy towards her child. Take the log out of your own eye before you look for the splinter in mine.

Yes, she made some bad mistakes, and nobody is going to deny that. I’m sure you’ve made some real doozies in your time, MADAME! But it is my best guess that you’ve never gone through what she has gone through, so I’ll ask you to keep your trap shut, and stop judging her or anyone else.

Her judgment perhaps could have been clouded. It still doesn’t make such an immoral act into a moral act.
Example: a man kills another man who he thought was a demon. Was it murder. No. Was it wrong. Yes. Should we then say his act is ok because he didn’t know the difference. Nope!

The thing about people who come across as you do (angry, opinionated, and loud-mouthed… all at the same time) is that they seldom if ever stop to consider that there IS another side to each question. Every equation has two sides, and you are only seeing one.

Though situations may be complex at times, the truth is still the truth. I stand by what the Church says. You disagree. Perhaps you should not be a Catholic then? Think about that.

You also wrote:
“You are siding with her choice to condemn her child to save her own life that is still not 100 percent by the way no matter how gloomy it may have looked.”
Wrong, MADAME!
I was responding to a comment by someone to the effect that an abortion can never be justified, only rationalized.

You clearly have been justifying her actions and saying it was acceptable. I won’t argue with you here.

You seem to have forgotten that little fact, MADAME!
And no matter how you try to sugar coat this, her decision was in line with the religious teachings of Judaism. Since WE are Roman Catholics, WE have no business applying OUR rules to someone of another faith. Want to talk about Roman Catholics?

Killing another human being we know to be a scientific fact and has nothing to do with religion. I’ve already stated this.
If my religion says a human life is not 100 percent a human being and does not get full rights till the age of reason would you agree not to stand in my way if I choose to kill him/her any time before that point. I’m thinking you would.

FINE! Let’s talk about getting Teddy Kennedy and John Kerry excommunicated! After all, they are supposedly Roman Catholics, and yet they have been HUGE supporters of abortions. They both opposed the Mexico City policy (which I supported).

Sure, I’m for that. Where do I sign.

Until then, please do not darken my doorway within the confines of this forum. I will no longer reply to any of your comments, as they are becoming more and more irrational as we have gone along.

That is fine with me as your reasonings have no logic to them whatsoever. It’s like debating with my lamp post.

Good day sir.

 

[limerick]

PastGrandKnight:

“If I can find an “ignore” button somewhere on this site, I will apply it to you and to all of your irrational arguments.”

**Once signed in, you can go to “Messages” at the top right of your screen, just above the charcoal grey bar. Once in “Messages” you will see “Edit Ignore List” on your left. Add or delete the names(s) you’ve chosen, and then hit OKAY. Save your changes.

I used to get roundly criticized for not knowing the sex of different posters I was discussing topics with. Others used to whine, “Just go look at their membership information to see if they’re male or female. How stupid!” Well, I never did find out how to determine the sex of any given poster. Maybe we shouldn’t presume their sex - their offensiveness could be considered equally obnoxious no matter whether male or female. Just a thought.

Limerick**

 

[limerick]

I’m actually male.

Wrong! But I don’t allow for sympathetic reasonings for another’s murder.

I merely stated that if she is for abortion under certain circumstances, then she’s not 100 percent pro life. You are in some sort of denial about this fact.

Do not judge sir. For I then will also say you care nothing about the unborn life of the child who gets no decision in the matter. Not one time have you ever shown sympathy towards her child. Take the log out of your own eye before you look for the splinter in mine.

Her judgment perhaps could have been clouded. It still doesn’t make such an immoral act into a moral act.
Example: a man kills another man who he thought was a demon. Was it murder. No. Was it wrong. Yes. Should we then say his act is ok because he didn’t know the difference. Nope!

Though situations may be complex at times, the truth is still the truth. I stand by what the Church says. You disagree. Perhaps you should not be a Catholic then? Think about that.

You clearly have been justifying her actions and saying it was acceptable. I won’t argue with you here.

Killing another human being we know to be a scientific fact and has nothing to do with religion. I’ve already stated this.
If my religion says a human life is not 100 percent a human being and does not get full rights till the age of reason would you agree not to stand in my way if I choose to kill him/her any time before that point. I’m thinking you would.

Sure, I’m for that. Where do I sign.

That is fine with me as your reasonings have no logic to them whatsoever. It’s like debating with my lamp post.

Good day sir.

**This sounds like two twelve year old girls fighting over who will be the new best friend with the new kid in class. Now, you’ve both slammed the door. Who’s gonna pry it open again for a parting shot?

Too bad I quit gambling.

Limerick**

 

[PastGrandKnight]

Sorry for getting the gender wrong, but you have often been coming across on this as an overly emotional woman would on the other side of the issue. I’ve gone to the pro-abort sites to argue against them, and some of their “dreck” (a Yiddish term), comes across sounding very much like what you have written. However, a screen name of Des could be either male or female, and I guessed wrong, Sorry for that.

But that’s as far as I’m willing to go in the way of any apology towards what you have written.

My defense of the woman in question was based on solid knowledge of the situation (albeit without knowing all of the most minute details such as her actual blood pressure (sky high), cholesterol level (sky high), weight (way up in the stratosphere!), etc etc… She made mistakes that got her into a bad predicament. She was already in the hospital when she found out she was pregnant in the first place, and was surprised when the first doctor told her she had virtually no options if she was going to survive.

But it seems you really don’t care about that!

You see, in the Knights of Columbus, we always tell our members “Family first”. She did not want to die, but all of the best medical evidence said she was about a month or, at most, 2 months away from death due to the fact she had added a pregnancy to the equation.

I’d guess that, if God was to weigh in on this matter, He did so by “rewarding” her with twins. He could have decided that she woudl never have another baby, but that was not the case. Her twins are happy and healthy, and her husband has his wife alive and in good health.

Now, get over it, and stop condemning either me or her. She did nothing to deserve to be condemned, and I was just the messenger, not the message!

By the way, based on the way you have acted during this exchange, I doubt you’d be very welcome in the K of C. Our first principle is Charity, and I seriously doubt that you have had charity in your mind during this debate. Sadly, it seemed exactly the opposite.

Good day.

 

[PastGrandKnight]

PastGrandKnight:

“If I can find an “ignore” button somewhere on this site, I will apply it to you and to all of your irrational arguments.”

**Once signed in, you can go to “Messages” at the top right of your screen, just above the charcoal grey bar. Once in “Messages” you will see “Edit Ignore List” on your left. Add or delete the names(s) you’ve chosen, and then hit OKAY. Save your changes.

I used to get roundly criticized for not knowing the sex of different posters I was discussing topics with. Others used to whine, “Just go look at their membership information to see if they’re male or female. How stupid!” Well, I never did find out how to determine the sex of any given poster. Maybe we shouldn’t presume their sex - their offensiveness could be considered equally obnoxious no matter whether male or female. Just a thought.

Limerick**

Good point, and it is well-taken in this corner.

Des may yet calm down, and I hope he does, in spite of everything. As for the name, I presumed that Des sounded female, and when added in with his very emotional arguments that got quite irrational at times, it gave me little choice (with no offense intended to the ladies out there!) He was writing in a manner similar to that of the pro-abortion gang of thugs with whom I’ve had numerous debates over at Delphi.

 

[Des]

However, a screen name of Des could be either male or female, and I guessed wrong, Sorry for that.

No apology necessary as it’s an easy mistake to make. I’ve made them plenty of times before. Unfortunately I have a name that can be used by both genders. I was trying to change my screen name before actually but wasn’t permitted to do so. My only other option is to register under another name.

My defense of the woman in question was based on solid knowledge of the situation (albeit without knowing all of the most minute details such as her actual blood pressure (sky high), cholesterol level (sky high), weight (way up in the stratosphere!), etc etc… She made mistakes that got her into a bad predicament. She was already in the hospital when she found out she was pregnant in the first place, and was surprised when the first doctor told her she had virtually no options if she was going to survive.

But it seems you really don’t care about that!

I’ve already responded to this. I cannot allow sympathy for another to blur what is truly a moral wrong in such a situation.

You see, in the Knights of Columbus, we always tell our members “Family first”. She did not want to die, but all of the best medical evidence said she was about a month or, at most, 2 months away from death due to the fact she had added a pregnancy to the equation.

That still isn’t a 100 percent certainty though. Family first includes their children I would think and I hardly doubt the Knights of Columbus organization will go against the Teachings of the Church on this matter and side with your opinion here.

I’d guess that, if God was to weigh in on this matter, He did so by “rewarding” her with twins. He could have decided that she would never have another baby, but that was not the case. Her twins are happy and healthy, and her husband has his wife alive and in good health.

God would not reward her with a child because of the abortion. Granted her children are still ‘gifts from God’ but not rewards for the abortion. I may have misread you but you understand the point I’m getting at.

Now, get over it, and stop condemning either me or her. She did nothing to deserve to be condemned, and I was just the messenger, not the message!

As I have repeated over and over. I do not condemn either of you. That is for God alone. I cannot read your hearts nor judge your soul. I do however, condemn the act of taking another’s life who has done no wrong under every circumstance.

By the way, based on the way you have acted during this exchange, I doubt you’d be very welcome in the K of C. Our first principle is Charity, and I seriously doubt that you have had charity in your mind during this debate. Sadly, it seemed exactly the opposite.

I’ll admit I may come across as uncharitable with my responses because of my over use with hard edge straight to the point examples.
And about the emotion, you have become just as emotional when you felt I have no feelings for this woman. Well I get emotional when I see people time and time again appear to have no feelings for the unborn.

Des may yet calm down, and I hope he does, in spite of everything.

Honestly, I have been quite calm for awhile now. It’s rare I stay angry on internet forums.

 

[Disciple96]

What happened to the idea that abortion was wrong because of moral and logical reasons, not because of religion? I was under the impression that religion merely motivated the pro life person…

What?

Abortion is wrong, for many reasons, the main one being that it is murder.

Now as to your last sentence, I repeat, what?

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

First I’d like to state that abortions performed due to rape are .01%, that’s one-tenth of one percent. So it sort of drives me nuts when people use the rape scenario as a justification to keep abortion legal.

However, it is still the killing of an innocent human life. This life has been granted by God and it certainly is no fault of the baby’s that this rape has occurred. The difference betwen your scenario of the kidney patient and the raped woman is the kidney patient is a sick man lying in bed and needing to be kept alive by unnatural means. The baby in the womb is a fresh new life and is kept alive by the most natural means there is - his/her MOTHER.

Rape is a horrible, violent, sad and unfortunate event, but in the teensy-weensy percentage of cases where it results in a pregnancy, I still do not see how the MOTHER should have the right to extinguish this new life growing within her. What is wrong with placing the child up for adoption?

What is wrong is why should anyoneThink about it Nancy get beaten and raped, and then if your 9 years old chanches are you are not going to male it and neither will the baby, One should live I just cant see baby;s having Baby’s After the mess those poor souls are in then the death sentence.

 

[essayons7]

**This sounds like two twelve year old girls fighting over who will be the new best friend with the new kid in class. Now, you’ve both slammed the door. Who’s gonna pry it open again for a parting shot?

Too bad I quit gambling.

Limerick**

You make one wonder what a non-Catholic, and in your case a non-believer, is doing on this site in the first place.

If you detest Catholicism so much, why even debate? You’ve made up your mind already, and all those who are trying to discuss this with you are given snarky replies that simply restate your own position - not even allowing the possibility that others may have wisdom you do not posess yourself (not that I am one with great wisdom - quite the opposite).

However, not being wise does not mean I can’t tell the difference between one who is seeking the truth, and one who simply likes to taunt others. You fall firmly into the second camp.

I know, it’s all your parent’s fault for “exposing” you to the evil doctrines of the Church. That excuse opens the door for you to give your “clever” answers.

Don’t you have better things to do than to hang out with us evil Catholics?

Give me a break.

I’m out of here - I’d rather not stick around on this site and have to contend with anti-Catholic individuals.

I’ll keep you in my prayers, and I hope that one day you are given the gift of faith - any faith. Perhaps then you will understand your actions and discontinue your persecution of others on this site.

 

[limerick]

You make one wonder what a non-Catholic, and in your case a non-believer, is doing on this site in the first place.
**
This forum is open to people of all faiths and people of little or no faith. And you are extremely presumptuous in your assessment that I am a non-believer. Where did you get that??**

If you detest Catholicism so much, why even debate? You’ve made up your mind already, and all those who are trying to discuss this with you are given snarky replies that simply restate your own position - not even allowing the possibility that others may have wisdom you do not posess yourself (not that I am one with great wisdom - quite the opposite).

** If you lack the wisdom, or even the experience, to discuss the topic, stand back.**

However, not being wise does not mean I can’t tell the difference between one who is seeking the truth, and one who simply likes to taunt others. You fall firmly into the second camp.

Seeking truth? YOUR truth?

I know, it’s all your parent’s fault for “exposing” you to the evil doctrines of the Church. That excuse opens the door for you to give your “clever” answers.

It was brought to my attention on this forum that because I am a cradle Catholic I am forever a Catholic. I can’t wash it off, I can’t pay a spiritual adviser to get me out of it, I can’t sell it on eBay, I’m stuck. You people told me that, so own it. If this is indeed a fact, then what I have said about the parents handing down the burden to the children is true. Many children see it is a legacy or a blessing. I do not. Am I not free to evaluate Catholicism? Or is that just the luxury of practicing Catholics?

Don’t you have better things to do than to hang out with us evil Catholics?

I don’t “hang out” - I find it interesting to compare the very wide interpretations of Catholic doctrine among Catholics themselves. It’s more of an avocation than “hanging out”.

Give me a break.

If anything, your remarks inspire me to step up my game.

I’m out of here - I’d rather not stick around on this site and have to contend with anti-Catholic individuals.

My guess is that, whether or not you respond any further on this thread, you won’t be able to stop yourself from checking back here to see if I responded to your post.

I’ll keep you in my prayers, and I hope that one day you are given the gift of faith - any faith. Perhaps then you will understand your actions and discontinue your persecution of others on this site.

**Save your prayers - a prayer offered without sincerity is worthless.

Limerick**

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

ABORTION IS WRONG, YES! But I could discuss it,in a differnt light at times. Love of Christ Nancy

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

GIANNA BERETTA OFFERED LIFE FOR HER CHILD

Mother’s Self-Sacrificing Love

---

Saint Gianna Beretta Molla was born in Magenta (Milan), Italy, on 4 October 1922, the 10th of 13 children. Already as a young girl she willingly accepted the gift of faith and the clearly Christian education that she received from her excellent parents. As a result, she experienced life as a marvellous gift from God, had a strong faith in Providence and was convinced of the necessity and effectivneess of prayer.

She diligently dedicated herself to studies during the years of her secondary and university education, while, at the same time, applying her faith in generous apostolic service among the elderly and needy as a member of the St. Vincent de Paul Society. After earning degrees in medicine and surgery from the University of Pavia in 1949, she opened a medical clinic in Mesero (near Magenta) in 1950. She specialized in pediatrics at the University of Milan in 1952 and thereafter gave special attention to mothers, babies, the elderly and the poor.

While working in the field of medicine—which she considered a “mission” and practiced as such—she increased her generous service to Catholic Action, especially among the “very young” and, at the same time, expressed her joie de vivre and love of creation through skiing and mountaineering. Through her prayers and those of others, she reflected on her vocation, which she also considered a gift from God. Having chosen the vocation of marriage, she embraced it with complete enthusiasm and wholly dedicated herself “to forming a truly Christian family.”

She became engaged to Pietro Molla and was radiant with joy and happiness during the time of their engagement, for which she thanked and praised the Lord. They were married on 24 September 1955 in St. Martin’s Basilica in Magenta, and she became a happy wife. In November 1956, to her great joy, she became the mother of Pierluigi; in December 1957 of Mariolina; in July 1959 of Laura. With simplicity and equilibrium she harmonized the demands of mother, wife, doctor and her passion for life.

In September 1961, towards the end of the second month of pregnancy, she was touched by suffering and the mystery of pain; she had developed a fibroma in her uterus. Before the required surgical operation, and conscious of the risk that her continued pregnancy brought, she pleaded with the surgeon to save the life of the child she was carrying, and entrusted herself to prayer and Providence. The life was saved, for which she thanked the Lord. She spent the seven months remaining until the birth of the child in incomparable strength of spirit and unrelenting dedication to her tasks as mother and doctor. She worried that the baby in her womb might be born in pain, and she asked God to prevent that.

A few days before the child was due, although trusting as always in Providence, she was ready to give her life in order to save that of her child: “If you must decide between me and the child, do not hesitate: choose the child—I insist on it. Save the baby.” On the morning of 21 April 1962 Gianna Emanuela was born. Despite all efforts and treatments to save both of them, on the morning of 28 April, amid unspeakable pain and after repeated exclamations of “Jesus, I love you. Jesus, I love you,” the mother died. She was 39 years old. Her funeral was an occasion of profound grief, faith and prayer. The body of the new blessed lies in the cemetary of Mesero (4 km. from Magenta).

Gianna was beatified by Pope John Paul II on April 24, 1994, and officially canonized as a saint on May 16, 2004. Gianna’s husband Pietro and their last child, Gianna, were present at the canonization ceremony.

St. Gianna is a patron saint for mothers, physicians, and unborn children.

---

Taken from:
L’Osservatore Romano
Weekly Edition in English
27 April 1994

L’Osservatore Romano is the newspaper of the Holy See.
The Weekly Edition in English is published for the US by:

The Cathedral Foundation
L’Osservatore Romano English Edition
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Baltimore, MD 21201
Subscriptions: (410) 547-5315
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Love of Christ Nancy, I’m getting there!

 

[Abbadon]

The only scenario where abortion would ever be consider legit to me, is if the physical life of the mother was truly 100% threatened by the pregnancy. From what I’ve read such situations are so completely rare as to be almost non-existent.

Abortion should be the same, “so completely rare as to be almost non-existent”.

What if it was 80%? And then do you think you have the right to choose for that woman or do you think she should be the one who chooses?

 

[Abbadon]

I’ve never carried inside me the child of the man that brutally raped me nor given birth to him/her, what’s it like for the mother to do that? what happens to the psyche of the mother?

 

[DLClark]

Abortion is not a hard subject to understand. Look up all the times that the Bible refers to innocent people and it will show what God thinks about killing these people.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

I’ve never carried inside me the child of the man that brutally raped me nor given birth to him/her, what’s it like for the mother to do that? what happens to the psyche of the mother?

It’s like Hell all over again but you can make it,yes your additude changes and you become a frightened individual and hide alot, but if you can find someone who understands and will care for the life you saved, it is all worth it. It was not the childs fault and he or she has a right to live, and when they hand that child over to you and you hold him for the first time all seems to vanish, and only that child will matter to you if you have a woman’s instinct.The hard part is to bring that child up and pray that they will not carry on them what their father has done. You Are Loved Nancy " Suffer the little childern to come unto me, and forbid them NOT, for such is the kingdom of Heaven."

 

[kage_ar]

I’ve never carried inside me the child of the man that brutally raped me nor given birth to him/her, what’s it like for the mother to do that? what happens to the psyche of the mother?

Powerful healing, to see life and experience the miracle that is a child. To let love and caring come from sadness and pain.

 

[Disciple96]

What if it was 80%? And then do you think you have the right to choose for that woman or do you think she should be the one who chooses?

The question is, what is she choosing? Do any of us have the right to choose to kill an innocent human being? Taking an innocent life is murder. Who has a right to choose murder? No one, that I’m aware of.

 

[Abbadon]

The question is, what is she choosing? Do any of us have the right to choose to kill an innocent human being? Taking an innocent life is murder. Who has a right to choose murder? No one, that I’m aware of.

So you would tell her, her husband and her two children that she must die so that the baby inside her will live?

 

[Abbadon]

The question is, what is she choosing? Do any of us have the right to choose to kill an innocent human being? Taking an innocent life is murder. Who has a right to choose murder? No one, that I’m aware of.

So you would tell her, her husband and her two children that she must die so that the baby inside her will live?

In a way then aren’t you choosing murder? Your letting her die, do you have that right? To choose her death?