Is abortion ever justified?

[benedictus2]

When the prospective mother is a nine-year-old girl. It’s obscene to deny the right to have an abortion in those circumstances, & doubly obscene to excommunicate any of those involved: as happened:​

• Nine-Year-Old’s Abortion Outrages Brazil’s Catholic Church
• Brazil rocked by abortion for 9-year-old rape victim
• Vatican Defends Excommunication Of Mother, Doctors Of 9-Year-Old Girl Who Had Abortion After Being Raped

Only her age saved the raped girl from being excommunicated with the others - that’s Catholic compassion

Sometimes, abortion is the least bad way out of a situation. That is life.

Evil is never the least bad way out. Evil is evil. Pure and simple.

Is murder really a better option to birth? Some sick and twisted morally you have.

 

[benedictus2]

And you are entitled to make that choice to allow yourself to die and leave your husband to take care of the three children. But you cannot take away someone elses right to choose to be with their husband and a mother to the other two children. That is a decision they have to make for themselves…

Scenario for you:

A mother with 4 children is in a bank with her new born child. A sick/perverted robber comes in to rob the bank and seeing the mother and child proposes this option to them. Only one will live. Either he shoots the mother or he shoots the child. He gives the mother this option. The choice is simple, if she dies all her 4 children will be motherless, if she lives she will still have 3 children to care for.

What is the good, moral, Godly choice in this situation?

 

[kage_ar]

Scenario for you:

A mother with 4 children is in a bank with her new born child. A sick/perverted robber comes in to rob the bank and seeing the mother and child proposes this option to them. Only one will live. Either he shoots the mother or he shoots the child. He gives the mother this option. The choice is simple, if she dies all her 4 children will be motherless, if she lives she will still have 3 children to care for.

What is the good, moral, Godly choice in this situation?

Jesus gave us the answer to this. Greater love has no man than this, to lay down his life for his friend.

As a Christian, we are called to follow Christ, that is sacrificial love. I am a mother. I would die for my child any day of the week. My mother would do the same for me.

 

[Cinette]

Is abortion ever justified?

Is Murder ever justified?

Is Adultery ever justified?

Is Theft ever justified?

Is separation from God (sin) ever justified?

Are we justified to even contemplate such questions?

No!:nope::nope:

 

[Des]

I know that the baby didn’t do anything wrong, but we cannot TRULY know the feeling until it happens to us. i believe God wants us to live our lives the way WE want to live them, alas, he is the one who ends up judging, not us. And I truly believe that it is not fair, when a women decides to do abort, and people at her church treat her different, WE ARE NO ONE TO JUDGE.

I seriously get annoyed when I over and over again, hear that word ‘Judge’ getting thrown about like that and not only in this forum but everywhere.

NOBODY HERE IS JUDGING HER SOUL. We are making a judgment on the act itself. Just like if I were to say ‘molesting a child is wrong’. People on here say we don’t know what it feels like to be raped. Well you’re right I don’t. But let me give you an example. What if a pedophile was raped over and over as a kid so continued this as an adult on other children. Are you going to stand by him and say it’s ok, I won’t judge you dear. Or are you going to condemn the act in all circumstances? You’ve never been through his life of getting raped over and over by his dad so who are you to tell him he can’t molest kids? If you do, I’ll say you’re judging him and you have no right to. But that is foolish thinking because I know you’re not judging his soul but the immorality of the situation. It’s up to us all to defend another’s right to have rape free lives just like it’s up to us to defend each other’s right to have a life without someone else feeling they can murder us for their own reasons.

If a ‘Catholic’ woman is sitting in Church saying how much she thought her decision to kill her unborn child was right, and she’d do it again if she had to, then YES, other Catholics have that right make sure they are against her thinking and that it is NOT acceptable. They have a right to point to her errors.
If she wants to be Catholic then obey the Church. If not, then she can go find some denomination that accepts abortions. I’ll never understand how people can call themselves Catholics yet still pick and choose the morals they ‘feel’ is right for them even if the Church is 100 percent against it. Why be Catholic at all if you believe that the Church is the Ground and Pillar of Truth.

On a side note, I’m by far perfect in this world and have sinned many times over so I hope people who read my posts don’t think that I believe I’m Mr. Perfect cause that is surely not the case. I actually feel guilty at times debating in threads like these cause of my own demons I have to deal with and I often think I’m coming across like some pompous *****. The thing is, I don’t defend my own errors but confront them and try to fix them inside of me as well.

 

[DeoSalvatoreMeo]

I am pro-life, but it seems to me that God is only pro-life when He wants to be, as He’s the maker of the moral law anyway. After reading this, I had my doubts evilbible.com/god%27s%20not%20pro-life.htm

Why are you reading a website called “Evil Bible”?

I haven’t looked at this entire site, but it is in response to the atheist Christopher Baba and his Evil Bible site:

therefinersfire.org/evil_bible.htm

 

[DeoSalvatoreMeo]

In response to the thread title: No.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Schultzc,

I arrived at this thread a bit late … but, I was quite blessed to read your post. Thank you for sharing your personal experiences on such a group of sensitive topics.

Life is a gift - not always presented with a pretty bow on sparkling wrapping paper - but, a gift nonetheless.

I hate when people bring the rape pregnancy up. First of all, most who do have never been raped and the ones that have may have a skewed perception.
My perception is it is a life and life is good. I can speak from experience here. When I was 20 I was raped. This was my first sexual experience. It took everything away from me. I felt completely worthless. I did not press charges because the court system would revictimize me. When the police asked me, “What if he got you pregnant?” My only answere to him was that at least something positive would have come from that scenerio.

Also from my experience; my first husband was abusive. I have since been annulled and remarried. I have 6 children with my second husband. But I have a child from my first who is a product of him raping me. (Yes a husband can forcibly force himself on his wife.) She saved my life. Because of her I had the strength to leave him and look for a better life. She is almost 10 and I love her just as much as my other children. So it saddens me to know end when I hear the product of rape scenerio.

There will always be those who find a pregnancy inconvenient - now, to be inconvenient to the point of agreeing to the butchering of the growing life inside of a person is making such a major error it is hard to even imagine the enormity.

Again, thanks for sharing your personal experience.

God Bless

 

[limerick]

Des says, “I’ll never understand how people can call themselves Catholics yet still pick and choose the morals they ‘feel’ is right for them even if the Church is 100 percent against it.”

Are you absolutely certain these people are calling themselves Catholics?

“Why be Catholic at all,” Des asks, *“if you believe that the Church is the Ground and Pillar of Truth?” *

Are you sure you don’t mean " … if you DO NOT believe that the Church is the Ground and Pillar of Truth"?

Limerick

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Joanmo,

I think you are 100% accurate on this. Here is an interesting link concerning the principle of double effect as applied to abortion: catholic.com/thisrock/2006/0609uan.asp

I would have used the term ‘ectopic pregnancy’ - but, we are on the same page…

Robert Burke;5138222:

Whenever this subject comes up, I keep waiting for someone to raise the issue of tubal ligation. So far, I’ve never seen it discussed. So I guess I’ll have to raise the issue.

Technically, a tubal ligation does result in an abortion, since the doctor kills the embryo when he removes the woman’s fallopian tube. However, the doctor’s intent is not to kill the unborn child but to save the woman’s life. If the doctor does nothing, then both mother and child will die.

I think you have your medical terms mixed up.When we say ‘tubal ligation’ people think of sterilization, which is wrong.
If a woman has a ‘tubal pregnancy’, then the surgeon can remove the fallopian tube bearing the fetus. The Catholic Church has always maintained that this surgery to save the mother’s life is the ONLY case that can justify the uninttended abortion.

God bless

 

[Des]

Are you absolutely certain these people are calling themselves Catholics?

It says so in their profile as well as their posts describe themselves as that. And I don’t mean here in this thread only. I mean in all the years I’ve been on this forum as well as in the real world as well.

**

Are you sure you don’t mean " … if you DO NOT believe that the Church is the Ground and Pillar of Truth"?

**
Yes that’s what I meant. Thanks for the correction.

There is something very wrong with this forum. Everytime someone doesn’t quote the right way using the quote button or splitting the quotes up in their response post, and then you try and quote their post, it makes 3 and 4 split quotes of that post. And if you re do it, same thing. It will not fix itself unless you take the name out of the post. It’s why Limerick’s name isn’t in those quote tags cause the only way it would work is if I removed it first.

This is the only forum that I’ve encountered that behaves this way and it gets extremely frustrating. It’s why there are so many improperly quoted posts in here like the one above me and the one below me for example. It only takes one person to do it wrong and that error sticks with everyone else’s responses. I’m not even sure I’m making sense here but I’m certain if you’ve been here long enough, you get what I’m talking about.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Hi, Joanmo,

I think you are 100% accurate on this. Here is an interesting link concerning the principle of double effect as applied to abortion: catholic.com/thisrock/2006/0609uan.asp

I would have used the term ‘ectopic pregnancy’ - but, we are on the same page…
joanmo42;5220630:

God bless

Tqualey, an excellent site, Thank You, as I had a tubel once and was near death when I was taken to the hospital, my kidney’s were shutting down, and the pain was unspeakable. I did not make any decision, they did, as I was almost out of it, because of the Doctor I had.(long story) Nice to know, I was told a little differnt. Love of Christ Nancy

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

tqualey;5267361:

Hi, Joanmo,

I think you are 100% accurate on this. Here is an interesting link concerning the principle of double effect as applied to abortion: catholic.com/thisrock/2006/0609uan.asp

I would have used the term ‘ectopic pregnancy’ - but, we are on the same page…

Tqualey, an excellent site, Thank You, as I had a tubel once and was near death when I was taken to the hospital, my kidney’s were shutting down, and the pain was unspeakable. I did not make any decision, they did, as I was almost out of it, because of the Doctor I had.(long story) Nice to know, I was told a little differnt. Love of Christ Nancy

You know I just thought of something I still have my tubes, so they never removed anything from me as far as tubes. What’s up with that?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, JMTowle,

What a beautiful statement on this Pentecost Sunday. The Holy Spirit has been the protector of Christ’s Church (and, that would be the Catholic Church) since that First Pentecost.

Contradictions and confusions are simply impossible for God - where we humans get muddled is trying to fit the infinite into not only our minds - but, into our behavioral practices. Christ clearly identifies for us the goal we are to aim for in Matt 5:48 “Be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect…”

Thanks for a well written post.

Dear ceceliatherese,

You are Catholic, the person who wrote the article is not building his case using Catholic teaching.

The teaching authority of the Catholic Church has recognized for centuries, the inherent danger in erroneous bible interpretation. Fortunately, the Church has done the heavy lifting for us and has drawn from the scriptures the Truth. The results of the many councils and centuries of theological exegesis are compiled in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the deposit of faith, defended by the Holy See, led by the Vicar of Christ.

If you trust that the Catholic Church is guided by the Holy Spirit and that the deposit of faith is infallible regarding matters of faith and morals, you are in good and safe hands. If you think the Catholic Church may be wrong on some issues that deal with faith and morals then you must find the Truth outside of the Church and where do you turn?

Either the Catholic Church is the Church started by our Lord and given the authority to bind or loose sins or it isn’t. If it is, put your faith and trust there and be at peace.
Otherwise, you must journey beyond the confines of Catholicism in hopes of finding the
" true authority". Your Protestant brothers and sisters will tell you it’s the Bible but the many arguments that contradict that notion are compelling and in the end you will likely be dissatisfied.

You may embark on this journey if you wish but it’s dangerous and you are not guaranteed a good result. Study the teachings of the Catholic Church, read the Catechism, pray for Wisdom and then go searching if you are not convinced that you are in the Church initiated by Christ and Breathed on at Pentecost. Work from the inside out.
Working from the outside in will be extremely confusing at best.

Contradiction is a concept foreign to the nature of God and entirely human. Using sacred scripture to declare God as being able to contradict His own Nature is folly and a strong argument for not attempting to go it on your own while interpreting the Truth contained in Divine revelation.

I would strongly advise you to search out a priest for spiritual direction. Ask God to place this priest in your life. Stay put, you are already in the best place possible.

May the peace of Christ be with us all, always

JT

God bless

 

[Disciple96]

When the prospective mother is a nine-year-old girl. It’s obscene to deny the right to have an abortion in those circumstances, & doubly obscene to excommunicate any of those involved: as happened:​

• Nine-Year-Old’s Abortion Outrages Brazil’s Catholic Church
• Brazil rocked by abortion for 9-year-old rape victim
• Vatican Defends Excommunication Of Mother, Doctors Of 9-Year-Old Girl Who Had Abortion After Being Raped

Only her age saved the raped girl from being excommunicated with the others - that’s Catholic compassion

Sometimes, abortion is the least bad way out of a situation. That is life.

You mean, that is death, don’t you?

Murder is a bad way to get out of one situation and into a worse one. Calling abortion an act of kindness is about the most obscene thing I’ve ever heard of. Lord, have mercy, abortion is not an act of kindness or compassion. It’s a horrible and violent act that should not be perpetrated upon any woman or girl of any age and it is a brutal and utterly uncompassionate way to destroy the innocent life in the womb, which life did not do anything to the young girl at all. Go after the stepfather who committed the abominable act; why should the baby pay for his sin?

The thing that saved the child from excommunication is that she did nothing wrong and the Church acknowledges that. She was dependent upon her family and was a victim of her stepfather, her mother and her doctor(s). Her priest and bishop tried to help her; and, whatta surprise, her mother and doctor refused to listen the same way many Catholics refuse to listen in this country and all around the world…and right here on this forum.

 

[Disciple96]

And you are entitled to make that choice to allow yourself to die and leave your husband to take care of the three children. But you cannot take away someone elses right to choose to be with their husband and a mother to the other two children. That is a decision they have to make for themselves…

I believe the state has already taken away the right to commit murder. That is what pro-abortionists refuse to realize. Murder is already against the law. Someone has already taken away your right to commit it. One can choose to murder and anyone who stops that one from murdering would be a hero. And then the murderer is charged with murder and is tried and punished. Murder is not a choice that society allows. Murder is not a right we have that we can choose. Murder can never be a right that we can choose. We have no right to commit murder.

Of course a person can choose to commit murder and I can’t take away that person’s free will and the ability to choose a horrible, wicked, evil, immoral, thoroughly reprehensible and disgusting course of action. But the mere ability to choose an action does not confer upon that choice the status of a right.

Especially when it is so completely and absolutely wrong.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

You mean, that is death, don’t you?

Murder is a bad way to get out of one situation and into a worse one. Calling abortion an act of kindness is about the most obscene thing I’ve ever heard of. Lord, have mercy, abortion is not an act of kindness or compassion. It’s a horrible and violent act that should not be perpetrated upon any woman or girl of any age and it is a brutal and utterly uncompassionate way to destroy the innocent life in the womb, which life did not do anything to the young girl at all. Go after the stepfather who committed the abominable act; why should the baby pay for his sin?

The thing that saved the child from excommunication is that she did nothing wrong and the Church acknowledges that. She was dependent upon her family and was a victim of her stepfather, her mother and her doctor(s). Her priest and bishop tried to help her; and, whatta surprise, her mother and doctor refused to listen the same way many Catholics refuse to listen in this country and all around the world…and right here on this forum.

Are you ignoring Post 367? Did you go there?

 

[Disciple96]

Are you ignoring Post 367? Did you go there?

I’m not ignoring any posts. But that doesn’t mean I have read every post or that I will read every post. Life is short and I am old.

I read post 367 just now. What did you want to say about it?

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

I’m not ignoring any posts. But that doesn’t mean I have read every post or that I will read every post. Life is short and I am old.

I read post 367 just now. What did you want to say about it?

I am old to and I read it. I was wondering how you felt about it? I am at apoint were I am better off not saying anything. God Bless you and may you live past 100. Nancy

 

[Disciple96]

I am old to and I read it. I was wondering how you felt about it? I am at apoint were I am better off not saying anything. God Bless you and may you live past 100. Nancy

Post 367 is the one where you said you still have your tubes and then you said, what’s up with that. So I’m still not sure what you’re talking about now. How I felt about what? You still having your tubes?