Hi, Abbadon,
Looks like we will have to dig a bit deeper …
It’s not conciousness, its the processing of higher thought and function. I consider all great apes in the same category. And some other simians.
You will really have to do better then this! First of all, let’s establish orientation - you are on the Catholic Answers Forum (not a biology or anthropology discussion group). Secondly, the essential part of this thread involves a moral quesiton (justification). As nice as the great apes are - there is no reported encounters with them to discuss morality. (There is also no know example of the great apes deliberately aborting their unborn for the purpose of killing them…
)
While we can consider consciousness as being alert, and aware of one’s surroundings - virtually all animals would score on this criteria - or, they would wind up as some other animal’s next meal!) There must be more to the system we are looking at then this. In my previous examples, of someone with a profound birth defect on one side of the age spectrum and someone else who has lost consciousness because of disease or accident, I was attempting to identify a quality that goes beyond the ability to respond to a stimuli. The quality is their HUMANITY.
If the person will never gain consciousness again I consider them a meat bag. If you don’t have thought your just a collection of cells. Sure you are a homo sapien, but I do not value your life. This is just me personally. However IF there is even the slightest possibility that you will gain consciousness I would value your life.
Your inability to consider is humanity except from one criteria is remarkably sad - and, a profound disappointment for me. Your de-humanizing term (“meat bag”) betrays what can only pass for a genuine contempt for human life in any form not specificly not valued by yourself. Ultimately, the problem with using yourself as your own criteria is you quickly find (if you are honest…) that this is incredibly limited in both scope and depth. And, while you may have considered yourself generous by agreeing to value life, “…IF there is even the slightest possibility…” you really have failed an important test: life has intrinsic value - whether you can grasp it or not.
And stem cells from any part of your body can be made into a new you, theoretically.
I think you will agree this is off topic for this thread. What we have before us is quite sufficient to demand our full attention - but, maybe you would like to open up anther thread?
All working parts for that one cell and the ability to replicate and reorganize to create a biological structure. Cell differentiation etc…
Not human beings.
I can almost hear you talking to the farmer in the analogy I gave you. The conversation would go something like this, I imagine…
FARMER: In four months time I will have a harvest and with the sale of these crops I will be able to pay off my current debts and get a new tractor.
ABBADON: How will that happen?
FARMER: I am a farmer and I have planted these seeds (holding one up for your inspection)
ABBADON: Those are JUST SEEDS - how can you do anythng with them? Can you eat them now? No! Can you use them as a fuel now? No! They are just seeds - and, anyone who is even the slightest bit interested will look at that seed and agree with me - not you!
FARMER: (Reaching for the phone…) You mean, you do not know what happens when seeds mature and blossom into the plant that will be harvested? (Begins to call 9-1-1…)
Admittedly, the reverse may give you some additional insights with these examples that can be used:
1.) the baker could tell you about the flour, eggs, yeast and sugar he is going throw together and then place in an overn - but, you would want bread!
2.) the auto mechanic can refer to the nuts and bolts and brake pads that laying before him in a pile - but, you would want new breaks installed.
3.) the surgeon could tell you about the type of surgical instruments he uses and the various parts of your body he must open up to get to the diseased part - but, you just want to live!
I think you get my drift…
While anyone can call this arrangement we have been discussing, just ‘cells’ - would they be also justified in calling the Mona Lisa just paint on cloth?
Yes blastocysts are like seeds, I like eating pumpkin seeds.
I’m not a doctor so I do not know birthing practices. But for me ethically its all about risk and doing what is best for the patient. If the C-Section is dangerous perhaps a quick abortion might be the better option. Each situation is different and these are judgment calls that the mother would have to make in that situation.
Your glib response is neither funny or appreciated. Ethics IS NOT ALL ABOUT RISK - that is INSURANCE. Ethics is unique to humans (no evidence of the great apes having an ethical system) as the quest for the moral answers to guide our lives. How we get to where we are going, and where it is we are going are all issues for ethics. Risk is not part of the process at all. What we are looking for is a moral process to arrive at a moral outcome. And, why do we do this - as opposed to simply weighing risk, flipping a coin or going by our first impulse? Because we are HUMAN BEINGS with the Image of God firmly imprinted on all of us -and called to do good and avoid evil as the basis for our happiness in this life.
While you may consider yourself as a developing ‘meat bag’ - you probably hope that others will not, and do what is necessary to provide you with appropriate care. Who knows, even those who had been given up on - have risen from their beds adn walked away from their ‘meat bag’ status.
God bless
:ehh::ehh:
uch:
