Is abortion ever OK?

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Ham1:
As has been said, any action would have to qualify under the principle of double effect.
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I have no argument on that, but the principle MUST be applied properly, which is what I was hoping to get a grip on with the drugs that flushed the blockage. I probably just don’t know enough to make a judgement without being in the situation, and I hope I never have to decide.

John
 
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iguana27:
Does anyone know if ectopic pregnancies can result in a child coming to term by the child migrating into the uterus after the ectopic pregnancy has been diagnosed?

I know that a child cannot develop long enough in the fallopian tube to be viable outside the mother.
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I’ve read that the embryo will often migrate to the uterus, but I do not know how long the embryo can stay in the tube before it does damage or how much waiting time would be considered safe. With today’s pro-choice doctor’s, it is probably difficult to get a straight answer on that one, as they will want to get rid of the embryo as soon as the ectopic pregnancy is discovered.
 
Once the embryo has implanted it will not migrate. Ectopic pregnancy is one in which the child has implanted into the fallopian tube or another place which is not the uterus ( can go to the abdomen, or other places as well). Anyway, a child in an ectopic pregnancy in the fallopian tube would not be able to develop enough to survive outside the womb. The age required is about 24-26 weeks depending on the hospital resources available. Long before this age, the fallopian tube would rupture, resulting in the death of the child and likely death of the mother from massive bleeding.

For the record, I’m a Pro-life physician.
 
When the mother’s life is in danger, she has a right to self defense, and every effort must be made to save the child.

The removal of a fallopian tube is a salpingectomy and the removal of a diseased uterus is a hysterectomy.

Abortion is always murder.

Mike Rainville
 
Great,

Dr, Nathanson, former abortionist, now a Catholic pro-life ethicist has been quoted as saying that the threat to a mother’s life is extremely rare. Would you agree?

Human Life International statistics indicate just over 1% of abortions are done to protect the mother’s life or health.

Are published statistics lumping in other medical procedures that have different names to confuse the issue, do you know?
 
Abortion as such is never acceptable. It is always a grave sin.

When both the mother and child are in danger the doctors must do all in their power to save both. If one expires, then they must shift their efforts to the survivor. If the only available efforts to save the mother cause the child to expire then this has to have been an unintended effect, in which case it isn’t abortion.

Charliemac
 
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KowboyM:
Sorry. I cannot believe abortion is o.k. under any circumstances. Guess some people have fallen away from the organization of: A.I.M. (Abortion Is Murder). Children are more precious and closest to the heart of Jesus than any other person upon Earth; He even said so. “and woe to anyone who hurts one of these” he said cuddling a child. At conception a child begins life…growing, forming himself/herself; much in the same was as us growing from childhood to adulthood…life is always growing, regardless of what stage it’s in, is still life.
Another: What about Fathers’ rights? They have none?
All things should be done to protect the child, regardless what; theres always someone wanting the child if you don’t.
You can thank God your mom didn’t believe in abortion, huh?
Could be that unborn child will be born in Heaven, and next to God when it comes time for your judgement?
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OK, How about when the fallopian tube has ruptured, the baby has died and the mother is about to – is ok then for the “salpingectomy” (tube removal) and the removal of the dead fetus? I was in that situation abot 14 years ago. :hmmm:

I am infertile – the nurse in the ER had to show me the positive pregnancy test because I just could get pregnant it seemed. Well, I did conceive, but the egg implanted in the tube. The fallopian tube is in no way as elastic as the uterus and can not contain and support a growing fetus/ baby for long.

I had ruptured on a Tuesday morning. I got the ER on a Thursday – that alone is kind of a miracle. I had over 4 units of blood suctioned from my abdomen. I lost a child without ever being able to rejoice over it first. The doc removed the damaged tube. It was not able to be repaired. I still have that ovary, though.

I did have three units of blood tranfused back into me and I was still anemic enough to be hospitalized for no other reason. I had an eight inch incision in my abdomen and I don’t see how I could have been any tougher in waiting for treatment. I didn’t abort my child. I didn’t go the CATHOLIC hospital and ask them to kill my baby. :tsktsk:

There are times when God allows modern medecine to save a life. I was lucky enough to be saved.

The ruptured ectopic pregnancy didn’t help my infuertility. It added scarring within my uterus from the blood that was escaping from my abdomen via my uterus.

I have adopted twice – a medically fragile daughter, Claire, she lived to be 7 yrs old and died four years ago. Our son is 6 years old and we have just had another homestudy approved to adopt again. :love:

Kowboy, I don’t know if you think I had an abortion or if it was wrong to save my life even when the baby’s couldn’t be saved. You know it is ironic, but for an infertile person, it is especially sad to have a nurse say “I’m sorry, you’re pregnant.” :crying: It was not what I had longed to hear.

Pax et bonum,
Mamamull
 
The Church always always the right of self-defence, provided that every attempt is made to save the child, whose death we mourn.

You had a salpingectomy. Period.
The child was already dead.

EVEN if the child were still alive, and beyond help, you DID NOT have an abortion.

The pro-choice factions have deliberately created confusion of terminology so they can FALSELY claim that abortion is sometimes necessary to save a mother’s life.

Hysterectomy and salpingectomy are life saving,
abortion never is.

Mike Rainville
 
Mike,

I agree that I didn’t have an abortion, but some people here were treating ectopic pregnancy like I could have saved my child’s life. This was 1990 and no way could they re-implant that baby - even if it hadn’t died before surgery. I also didn’t the like the skirting around the “bulge” in the tube. If you are pregnant it is a baby. I didn’t have a bulge, I had a baby that outgrew the confines of the fallopian tube. It is a very serious complication. Most people are fearful of a ruptured appendix, a ruptered ectopic pregnancy is a higher blood loss situation.

I did almost die and know of a younger woman who was in the hospital at the same time who did die. Ectopic pregnancy is not just a wait and see proposition. :banghead: Unless you want to wait and see if you suddenly pass out or just slowly pass out when your tube blows.

That I was convinced that I couldn’t get pregnant made my diagnosis late - as in post-rupture. I don’t know how many women argue with their nurses either. For most women, the pregnancy the is known and the ectopic part is found a bit later, but it doesn’t have to be fatal or stigmatized as being selfish.

Sonograms are wonderful for detecting this kind of complication, but most people don’t need to worry about them. Most people don’t want to learn any of the problems that could be seen by sonogram, either.

That my fallopian tube couldn’t be saved was moot for me. I have many strikes against my fertility. Every time I went in the x-ray room with Claire, I was asked if I was pregnant. My standard response was “No angel of the Lord has appeared unto me and I am not even close in being as pure as the Blessed Virgin Mary.”

I am awaiting the next childto adopt. I pray that God is protecting the child I have spiritually adopted. I also ask that He is preparing me for the challenge ahead.

Pax et bonum,
 
Thank you all for posting so many thoughtful and thought-provoking replies. This thread is a great example of what’s good about these forums. I have come away with a much fuller understanding of the Church’s teaching and of the learned opinions of its members.

Sincerely,
HW
 
abortion is never right

even if i was raped or i became pregnant now (aged 14)
i would still have the baby
 
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kpnuts2k:
abortion is never right

even if i was raped or i became pregnant now (aged 14)
i would still have the baby
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good for you! 👍
Unfortunately, that’s not the impression I get from the Protestant teachings…
 
A couple of you mentioned that abortion would be okay in the case of rape or incens or the life of the mother. Have you ever heard of Pam Stenzel. She is the speaker on a great tape called “Sex has a price tag”.

In the middle of her very beautiful talk she thanks a 15 year old girl who was raped for loving her child enough to give it up for adoption. She then goes on to mention that this child is her. She said her father is a rapist and is in jail. She mentions that she doesn’t even know what her nationality is or anything else. Then she says that she has spent her whole life listening to the abortion is okay in the case of rape, incest agrument.

Her question for you is “What have I done to deserve death? Don’t I have any value? Should I be made to suffer because of the sins of my father? Don’t you love me?”

Very powerful. We need to encourage our rape and incest victims with counseling and love to love their children enough to give them the gift of life.

God bless! I highly recommend this tape.
 
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hwinston:
I’m sure there’s a term for arguing, ad nauseum, specific situations or examples where a certain moral teaching may be less obvious, so here’s one.

Is it ever acceptable, according to official Church teaching, to choose the life of a mother over the life of an unborn child?
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Abortion is intrinsically evil and may never be done. If there is an ectopic pregnancy or some other medical crisis than the mother may be treated as long there is no intent to abort. The child may die during care, but it can’t be intended as an abortion.
 
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martino:
There are two moral principles at play here, 1) we can NEVER do evil to bring about good, and 2) the principle of the double effect.
  1. WE CAN NEVER TO EVIL TO BRING ABOUT GOOD, this simply means that the end does not justify the means. Abortion is intrinsically evil therefore there is no situation that would ever render it not evil.
  2. PRINCIPLE OF THE DOUBLE EFFECT, this one is more complicated but a few others have already alluded to it. This principle states that an act that is good (or at least not evil), but that has an evil side effect, may be done only under the following conditions:
    1. the good must be willed. The evil must not be willed, but merely tolerated.
    2. the good must not be the result of the tolerated evil (the good is the direct result, the evil is the indirect result).
    3. the good desired must equal or outweigh the evil effect.
    4. there must be a proportionately serious reason to do the act.
Hopefully this will help clear things up for some people. 🙂

this information came from San Juan Seminars
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2. the good must not be the result of the tolerated evil (the good is the direct result, the evil is the indirect result).

Then, please tell me how to differentiate between the good of the mother’s life (saving the mother when she has uterine cancer) or the good of the infant’s life? To me, the infant has years to grow up and become another Mother Teresa, while the mother may not be able to have more children as a result of the cancer… Someone said above that it is the mother’s choice to allow her baby to be saved or allow herself to die after delivering the baby. This problem seems very difficult for me to resolve.
 
knoller’49 said:
2. the good must not be the result of the tolerated evil (the good is the direct result, the evil is the indirect result).

Then, please tell me how to differentiate between the good of the mother’s life (saving the mother when she has uterine cancer) or the good of the infant’s life? To me, the infant has years to grow up and become another Mother Teresa, while the mother may not be able to have more children as a result of the cancer… Someone said above that it is the mother’s choice to allow her baby to be saved or allow herself to die after delivering the baby. This problem seems very difficult for me to resolve.
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The decision would be up to the mother and father of the baby. Indeed, it would be a terrible decision to have to make. Just because it would be justified to “remove a tube or uterus (depending on the actual malady)” does not mean that the couple has an OBLIGATION to do this. They very well may decide that the babies life could be worth trying to save. It should be noted that in these type of situations the circumstances are usually that the baby and mother will die if nothing is done.
 
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hwinston:
I’m sure there’s a term for arguing, ad nauseum, specific situations or examples where a certain moral teaching may be less obvious, so here’s one.

Is it ever acceptable, according to official Church teaching, to choose the life of a mother over the life of an unborn child?
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No, there is no situation in which Abortion would be permissable.

The best person to ask these questions is Judy Brown from the American Life League. She also answers Pro-Life questions Daily on the EWTN website. You can ask her a new question OR look at hundreds of question she has already answered.

Here is the website…

ewtn.com/vexperts/conference.htm
 
Where can I find this in the official Catholic teaching. The Catechism said nothing about tubal abortion.
 
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